Frequency Response of a Subwoofer

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Synthesizers and electric bass.
I look at spectrograms of bass music a lot. Very few of even heavy bass dubstep tunes dig beneath 30 Hz with any real energy. You might have a some acoustic albums that haven't been mastered with a high pass filter, but pick 9 out of ten albums off the rack, and you will not have any sub 30 Hz content. The artists you name seem to have not high passed their recordings. I am looking at a spectrogram of David Benoit's Earthglow right now, there is energy beneath 30 Hz, but it is subharmonic and not the fundamental.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I am looking at a spectrogram of David Benoit's Earthglow right now, there is energy beneath 30 Hz, but it is subharmonic and not the fundamental.
Of course it's subharmonic, that's how synthesizers work, but I rest my case.

I like the fact that you measured, rather than just listened. Most people I know refuse to measure their systems or even use test tones to get a sense of what their systems perform like. Then they tell me there's not much bass in one album or another. So if I'm local I offer to bring my OmniMic by. And what do you know, we find nulls or suck-outs below 40Hz at their listening seat Superman would have trouble flying out of. Then a good part of the time they tell me they can't or won't move their speakers or subs, and try to justify it by saying that moving a sub a foot two doesn't impact the sound much. So I move the microphone boom a couple of feet and show them how the measurements change, and ask them why moving the subs are any different. Except in one case in the past couple of years, I might as well be talking to the subs themselves.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Is it possible that some people confuse feeling with hearing below 20 hz?
That's what is. Humans feel 20 HZ but not hear it. Although Elephants can hear below 20 HZ.
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Recorded sound 30 Hz isn't rare actually. In fact, many sound recording engineers employ 20 Hz high pass filters on everything, because of all the incidental low frequency stuff that gets on the recording, like a gust of air on the mic from somewhere. But I think your point is it is rare in commercially available recordings, which is true.

You can hear content all the way down to the single digits. It is a fiction that people can only hear down to 20 Hz, that is a rounded number for convenience. Here is an essential article for anyone interested in the lower extension of human hearing. The low end of human hearing looks to be 2 Hz, not the oft-quoted 20 Hz. That basically gives us about 3 more octaves of hearing than is commonly understood! In reality you are hearing extreme deep bass all the time, just roll down your car window when driving down the freeway, or stand by a freight train as it passes, or on a runway with b-52s landing or taking off. The most palpable tactile bass seems to be mid bass frequencies by the way, not deep bass frequencies, although deep bass frequencies can be felt too, with enough amplitude. Here is the money shot of tested hearing down to the deepest frequencies:


Here is all of those low frequency hearing studies averaged out; this is a proposed extension to the ISO 226:2003 equal loudness contours, which only go down to 20 Hz:
I don't know where you got this information, however the vast, overwhelming, majority of scientist, that can breakdown the anatomy of the human ear can show you, biologically, why humans can't hear infrasounds.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
So you're saying my measurements are incorrect? Maybe, but my ears and butt tell me different. Try this Benoit album and measure for yourself:

http://www.amazon.com/Earthglow-David-Benoit/dp/B0037RBW4G/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1451345386&sr=1-10&keywords=david+benoit
I spent some time with Earthglow. I didn't hear anything even as low 30hz. My sub has a bit of a peak at 30 hz so it is a point in the spectrum that is easy for me to hear when reproduced. What you measured was something other than music. Ambient sound of the recording venue, perhaps? Anomaly somewhere in the measurement chain?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I don't know where you got this information, however the vast, overwhelming, majority of scientist, that can breakdown the anatomy of the human ear can show you, biologically, why humans can't hear infrasounds.
Lol, you don't know where I got this information? I cited the paper and linked to it in my post, what more do you want!? Whatever the mechanism of hearing at those low frequencies, the fact is that is what occurs. It is not a purely vibrotactile sensation, because if it were, the research would show that A: deaf people could sense it too (but it was shown they can not), and B: the sensation thresholds for headphone and whole body chamber exposure would be different (but they aren't). Read the article!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I spent some time with Earthglow. I didn't hear anything even as low 30hz. My sub has a bit of a peak at 30 hz so it is a point in the spectrum that is easy for me to hear when reproduced. What you measured was something other than music. Ambient sound of the recording venue, perhaps? Anomaly somewhere in the measurement chain?
Here is a spectrogram of a piece of 'Will's Chill' from Earthglow:

This is pretty representative of the type of sub-30 Hz bass content on this disc. There isn't a lot there, but it does exist. It is a subharmonic of the kick drum that has its fundamental at 50 Hz.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I spent some time with Earthglow. I didn't hear anything even as low 30hz. My sub has a bit of a peak at 30 hz so it is a point in the spectrum that is easy for me to hear when reproduced. What you measured was something other than music. Ambient sound of the recording venue, perhaps? Anomaly somewhere in the measurement chain?
Have you measured your system's frequency response at your listening seat?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Here is a spectrogram of a piece of 'Will's Chill' from Earthglow:

This is pretty representative of the type of sub-30 Hz bass content on this disc. There isn't a lot there, but it does exist. It is a subharmonic of the kick drum that has its fundamental at 50 Hz.
He is also using synthesizers that seem to have meaningful output in the 25-30Hz range on other tracks. My mains have a 6db suck-out at 23-28Hz, and I can mute the sub with the remote. It surprises me a bit how many CDs are affected when I hit the mute button, which is why I was debating your point about rarity. I think these days, due to so many people listening on HT systems with subs (and in cars with subs) that the recording industry is drunk on subharmonic synthesizers. I find people love to hear their subs working.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Lol, you don't know where I got this information? I cited the paper and linked to it in my post, what more do you want!? Whatever the mechanism of hearing at those low frequencies, the fact is that is what occurs. It is not a purely vibrotactile sensation, because if it were, the research would show that A: deaf people could sense it too (but it was shown they can not), and B: the sensation thresholds for headphone and whole body chamber exposure would be different (but they aren't). Read the article!
Our hearing ability is based on (1) how our our ears are designed(2) the fact that range of human hearing decreases with age. I even read where our hearing starts diminish at the age of 8. I don't believe the above information, weighed against the prevailing scientific opinion, is credible. Elephants, according to experts, can hear infrasounds and they also communicate via infrasounds, look at the size of elephant ears.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Our hearing ability is based on (1) how our our ears are designed(2) the fact that range of human hearing decreases with age. I even read where our hearing starts diminish at the age of 8. I don't believe the above information, weighed against the prevailing scientific opinion, is credible. Elephants, according to experts, can hear infrasounds and they also communicate via infrasounds, look at the size of elephant ears.
Curiously enough, it looks like the topic is due to receive a bit more research as a result of wind turbines:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150710123506.htm

In order to find out more, an infrasonic source which is able to generate sounds that are completely free from harmonics (which is not as trivial as it may sound!) was constructed within the scope of this project. Test persons were asked about their subjective hearing experience, and these (also quantitative) statements were then compared by means of imaging procedures, namely by magnetoencephalography (MEG) and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). The results have shown that humans hear lower sounds -- namely from 8 hertz on -- which, after all, is a whole octave than had previously been assumed: an excitation of the primary auditory cortex could be detected down to this frequency. All persons concerned explicitly stated that they had heard something -- whereby this perception had not always been tonal. In addition, the observations showed a reaction in certain parts of the brain which play a role in emotions.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
23 hz to 30khz +/- 6 db
Then I can't explain why you don't hear what is so obvious, unless you're playing this music at such a low average level, like 75db, that sub-30Hz sound isn't going to be felt much.

BTW, what tool do you measure with?
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Curiously enough, it looks like the topic is due to receive a bit more research as a result of wind turbines:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150710123506.htm
"A wind turbine, a roaring crowd at a football game, a jet engine running full throttle: Each of these things produces sound waves that are well below the frequencies humans can hear. But just because you can’t hear the low-frequency components of these sounds doesn’t mean they have no effect on your ears. Listening to just 90 seconds of low-frequency sound can change the way your inner ear works for minutes after the noise ends, a new study shows."

“Low-frequency sound exposure has long been thought to be innocuous, and this study suggests that it’s not,” says audiology researcher Jeffery Lichtenhan of the Washington University School of Medicine in in St. Louis, who was not involved in the new work.

Humans can generally sense sounds at frequencies between 20 and 20,000 cycles per second, or hertz (Hz)—although this range shrinks as a person ages. Prolonged exposure to loud noises within the audible range have long been known to cause hearing loss over time

http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/09/sounds-you-cant-hear-can-still-hurt-your-ears
 
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