Subwoofer choice(PSA,SVS,HSU,JL Audio) for my 5.1 system

[Seth=L]

It's clear at this point that shadyj and theJman are not going to agree. The responses are getting repetitive and this is leading absolutely nowhere. I'm disappointed, as it seems my question may have been overlooked because of this nearing pointless debate.

 

[KEW]

Thank you for confirming. By the way, do you remember which sub, the SBU13 or the E15HP has better measurements, of course I mean just what you measured. I like the E15HP so far, actually managed to dial it in with the little LS50s in my other 2 channel system. Just curious about the SBU13 that I never pull the trigger on. I can still either get a second E15HP to turn that 2.1 to 2.1, or get a SBU13, but without SubEQ HT it may be tough to integrate those two manually right?

Maybe I misunderstand your wording, but my understanding of SubEQ is all it does is allow level and time/phase matching between two subs. After that the two subs are treated (and EQ'ed) as if one sub. I don't believe the same model sub will be better handled with vs. without SubEQ.
Or, are you saying that you can locate identical subs equidistant from the listening position and with the same volume setting you'll effectively perform the functions of SubEQ (which makes sense to me)?

 

[gankum]

shadyJ & Jim,
Thanks both for your inputs ( & passionate arguement) ..I've taken JL Audio out of contention, based on your recommendations, performance/$ and room size.
So in addition to the HSU VTF-3 MK5 and HSU ULS 15, I'm also looking at few PSA subs( PSA S1500, PSA 15V and PSA v1500).
Seems PSA 15V is a new entry and close to v1500 and more compact..,unfortunately doesn't carry the free shipping/free return policy of others. Couldn't find any reviews on this..I'm liking the free shipping both ways + 5yr warranty bumper-to-bumper of PSA . Also reviews indicate their customer service is good ( I chatted with one of them , but they wouldn't do the same promotion on 15V !)

Question is , are they on the same level as HSU , JL Audio and SVS ?

 

[theJman]

If there is something beyond linear cone motion, I would love to know what it is. From my perspective, that is essentially what you are arguing for, and I see it as unscientific.

Nope, not what I'm arguing at all - no matter what I say or how I say it you keep misinterpreting it as something completely different. And I'm done wasting my time. Guess all those people with 100x your knowledge and experience - the ones who actually build subwoofers for a living, including the one you own oddly enough - must not be as wise as you.

We now return to your regularly scheduled program...

 

[theJman]

shadyJ & Jim,
Thanks both for your inputs ( & passionate arguement) ..I've taken JL Audio out of contention, based on your recommendations, performance/$ and room size.
So in addition to the HSU VTF-3 MK5 and HSU ULS 15, I'm also looking at few PSA subs( PSA S1500, PSA 15V and PSA v1500).
Seems PSA 15V is a new entry and close to v1500 and more compact..,unfortunately doesn't carry the free shipping/free return policy of others. Couldn't find any reviews on this..I'm liking the free shipping both ways + 5yr warranty bumper-to-bumper of PSA . Also reviews indicate their customer service is good ( I chatted with one of them , but they wouldn't do the same promotion on 15V !)

Question is , are they on the same level as HSU , JL Audio and SVS ?

PSA is every bit as good as HSU and SVS, but I don't think any of them are on par with JL Audio. AAMOF, the guy who started PSA is the V in SVS, so he does know a thing or two about subwoofers. The 15V is a new product, which is why you can't find much on it yet.

With what you're looking to achieve you can probably scratch the ULS-15 and S1500 off the list. Chances are they won't provide sufficient output and depth.

 

[theJman]

I'd be genuinely curious to know what your experience was in comparison between these two. I'm not asking for double blinds, just your impressions on what made the JL stand out from the HSU.

It's clear at this point that shadyj and theJman are not going to agree. The responses are getting repetitive and this is leading absolutely nowhere. I'm disappointed, as it seems my question may have been overlooked because of this nearing pointless debate.

Detail and precision would be the best way to describe it (note that my review was on the E112, not the E110). Also impressive is the over-engineering of the JL Audio when compared to the HSU. The latter seems designed to a price point, while the former to a performance point. Under some circumstances that might be construed as derisive, but it's certain not the case here. Dr. Hsu has done a magnificent job with the ULS-15 MK2 (and the VTF-3 MK5 I reviewed 6 months ago), so it's not like you're buying some half-assed product from HSU Research. You're getting quality stuff with an amazing amount of performance wrung from the design, but it's targeted at a different audience than JL Audio targets. As such, the final products are also different.

 

[PENG]

Maybe I misunderstand your wording, but my understanding of SubEQ is all it does is allow level and time/phase matching between two subs. After that the two subs are treated (and EQ'ed) as if one sub. I don't believe the same model sub will be better handled with vs. without SubEQ.
Or, are you saying that you can locate identical subs equidistant from the listening position and with the same volume setting you'll effectively perform the functions of SubEQ (which makes sense to me)?

Yes, I am thinking "stereo" sub, one of each side, approximately equal distance.

 

[PENG]

Detail and precision would be the best way to describe it (note that my review was on the E112, not the E110). Also impressive is the over-engineering of the JL Audio when compared to the HSU. The latter seems designed to a price point, while the former to a performance point. Under some circumstances that might be construed as derisive, but it's certain not the case here. Dr. Hsu has done a magnificent job with the ULS-15 MK2 (and the VTF-3 MK5 I reviewed 6 months ago), so it's not like you're buying some half-assed product from HSU Research. You're getting quality stuff with an amazing amount of performance wrung from the design, but it's targeted at a different audience than JL Audio targets. As such, the final products are also different.

I agree that JL Audo subs sound detail and relatively precise, so call musical I guess to me anyway, and I know it is subjective. Having said that, I disagree that such quality (except for the subjective musicality part) cannot be measured.

With the right instruments such as a precise spectrum analyser and right procedures/methodologies, we should be able to compare the music waveform recorded live with that replayed by different subwoofers and determine quantitatively which one comes closest. I will be surprised if the JL Audio subs don't come out ahead in such comparisons. Unfortunately there are no signs of anyone bothering to do such measurements and comparisons. I may email Brian Ding and Ed Mullen about this.

 

[Seth=L]

If one could and effectively would provide measurements that could finitely tell you exactly how good a product would be and everyone in the industry adhered to it then that market would shrink. Companies would not be able to maintain against a bigger competitor willing to put forth the effort to produce the best subwoofers at certain prices levels, effectively killing most of the competition.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If one could and effectively would provide measurements that could finitely tell you exactly how good a product would be and everyone in the industry adhered to it then that market would shrink. Companies would not be able to maintain against a bigger competitor willing to put forth the effort to produce the best subwoofers at certain prices levels, effectively killing most of the competition.

I don't know about that. It depends on your definition of best. Personally, I lean more towards ShadyJ's view than Jman's, but there is a lot more to subwoofers for some people, like me, for example, than just the most output at the lowest distortion over the widest range. For one thing, I'm not putting some big ugly matte black box in my living room. The sub has to look like it belongs in my living room. Second, build quality and reliability are very important too. I don't want built-to-a-price-point junk. Especially cheap plate amps. What happens when the sub is driven to its limits? Does it break? Make funny noises? And I want multi-band parametric equalization driven by software too. Suddenly most of the ugly black boxes fall off the comparison chart, but it's surprising how many subs are still left. And it would be nice to tell them apart, performance-wise, with a comprehensive set of measurements. I don't think informative measurements limit the market in any way, in fact, I think they help insure that most competing products meet at least a minimum standard of performance.

 

[PENG]

If one could and effectively would provide measurements that could finitely tell you exactly how good a product would be and everyone in the industry adhered to it then that market would shrink. Companies would not be able to maintain against a bigger competitor willing to put forth the effort to produce the best subwoofers at certain prices levels, effectively killing most of the competition.

That's quite true, it is just sad to see the constant argument from the camp that believes there are things that cannot be measured that determine why McIntosh amp would sound warm and Bryston cool when they can be proved wrong in even a good university's lab, well almost..

 

[Seth=L]

That's quite true, it is just sad to see the constant argument from the camp that believes there are things that cannot be measured that determine why McIntosh amp would sound warm and Bryston cool when they can be proved wrong in even a good university's lab, well almost..

The earth is FLAT... damn it

 

[gankum]

Ok, I had to update the title of the thread..as its not HSU ULS-15 vs JL Audio e110 anymore.

Infact, JL Audio is not in consideration anymore(based on feedback on price/performance,room size,budget(1.5K max for sub). I measured the room size again, 4200 cubic ft in total(HT section ~1000 cubic ft). Listening level=moderate and occasionally high with movies.

HSU's subs are impressive but only 2yr warranty on electronics, no free shipping both ways . In this aspect, both SVS and PSA fare better ..SVS has the most attractive policy seems like(including 1yr trade-up policy,90 day defective exchange,1yr perf guarantee etc)..

Few choices I have narrowed down to, ( no offence to Jim or shadyJ on their recommendations..have learned a lot the past few days)

SVS PB2000(PB12 looks great plus not compact..weighs twice as pb2000. Can add 2nd pb2000 later..I just don't want to buy two now)
PSA s1500( Jim excluded this)
PSA v1500

Anyone can share their experiences with SVS PB2000 and PSA v1500 please ?

QQ: thinking about dual-smaller-sub vs single larger/more-powerful-sub. Anyone can attest to this,practically.. http://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75040195-why-go-dual

Thanks ..(this has taken longer than other speakers!)

 

[KEW]

Here is a link to Jman's comparison of the SVS SB13U vs Rythmik E15HP:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1471574-rythmik-e15-vs-svs-sb13-ultra-4.html#post24544440
I am inclined to believe Jman's observations between these two subs; he had both subs in his system at the same time for an A-B comparison. I have done similar comparisons and heard similar instances where one sub (in this case the SB13U) seemed not quite as accurate/tight in presentation of low end content.

So, here is my question:

What would I look for in measurements to reveal this difference?

According to DataBass and all other accounts I have seen, the SB13U is certainly a tight sub. Of course the Rythmik E15HP is as well (but does not have DataBass measurements to compare).

I have seen arguments (and comments from the people making the measurements) that the slower time delay of some ported subs (which do not measure near so well as the SVS SB13U) is not audible.

There are obvious contradictions here. Can anyone provide a theory which is consistent with these findings? Where is the fault?

 

[PENG]

The earth is FLAT... damn it

Only if you use your eyes, Placebo effect at its best!!

 

[PENG]

Ok, I had to update the title of the thread..as its not HSU ULS-15 vs JL Audio e110 anymore.

Infact, JL Audio is not in consideration anymore(based on feedback on price/performance,room size,budget(1.5K max for sub). I measured the room size again, 4200 cubic ft in total(HT section ~1000 cubic ft). Listening level=moderate and occasionally high with movies.

HSU's subs are impressive but only 2yr warranty on electronics, no free shipping both ways . In this aspect, both SVS and PSA fare better ..SVS has the most attractive policy seems like(including 1yr trade-up policy,90 day defective exchange,1yr perf guarantee etc)..

Few choices I have narrowed down to, ( no offence to Jim or shadyJ on their recommendations..have learned a lot the past few days)

SVS PB2000(PB12 looks great plus not compact..weighs twice as pb2000. Can add 2nd pb2000 later..I just don't want to buy two now)
PSA s1500( Jim excluded this)
PSA v1500

Anyone can share their experiences with SVS PB2000 and PSA v1500 please ?

QQ: thinking about dual-smaller-sub vs single larger/more-powerful-sub. Anyone can attest to this,practically.. http://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75040195-why-go-dual

Thanks ..(this has taken longer than other speakers!)

A single PB2000 should do fine in your 1000 cu ft HT section and if not you can add a second one. I just installed two of those in a 5000 cu ft room that opens into another 5500 cut ft room and the bass is barely adequate sitting 14 ft from the centre speaker. They do sound good though.

 

[shadyJ]

Ok, I had to update the title of the thread..as its not HSU ULS-15 vs JL Audio e110 anymore.

Infact, JL Audio is not in consideration anymore(based on feedback on price/performance,room size,budget(1.5K max for sub). I measured the room size again, 4200 cubic ft in total(HT section ~1000 cubic ft). Listening level=moderate and occasionally high with movies.

HSU's subs are impressive but only 2yr warranty on electronics, no free shipping both ways . In this aspect, both SVS and PSA fare better ..SVS has the most attractive policy seems like(including 1yr trade-up policy,90 day defective exchange,1yr perf guarantee etc)..

Few choices I have narrowed down to, ( no offence to Jim or shadyJ on their recommendations..have learned a lot the past few days)

SVS PB2000(PB12 looks great plus not compact..weighs twice as pb2000. Can add 2nd pb2000 later..I just don't want to buy two now)
PSA s1500( Jim excluded this)
PSA v1500

Anyone can share their experiences with SVS PB2000 and PSA v1500 please ?

QQ: thinking about dual-smaller-sub vs single larger/more-powerful-sub. Anyone can attest to this,practically.. http://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75040195-why-go-dual

Thanks ..(this has taken longer than other speakers!)

The SVS subs are not quite the output monsters that these other subs are. They do give up quite a bit of performance compared to some others of nearly the same price. PSA tends to over rate the performance of their own products, and worse, misleadingly misstate the performance of the products of their competitors. I would skip PSA. I would still consider Hsu over either, it's a better alternative. You can buy an extended amp warranty for something like $70 or $80 more if that is what concerns you, and it is still a bargain compared to these others. For free shipping and a automatic 5 year warranty, I would be looking at subs from Reaction Audio, which will majorly outperform the SVS and PSA subs or around the same price. There is a lead time on their products, but for deep bass SPL for the $, they are really hard to beat. Only Hsu and Rythmik Audio will begin to compare at that price point.

 

[shadyJ]

Nope, not what I'm arguing at all - no matter what I say or how I say it you keep misinterpreting it as something completely different.

Wrong, you keep on arguing for exactly that, as in these statements:

"I never said performance can't be derived from measurements, only that you can't measure everything."

"There are things outside of static measurements which influence the overall experience."

Yet you can not specify what it is that is somehow beyond measurements, but then you turn around and say you are not arguing against quantifiable metrics. You want to have it both ways. Non-linear cone movement is distortion, it can be measured, and it is a measure of accurate playback. Anything else is audiophile mysticism.

And I'm done wasting my time. Guess all those people with 100x your knowledge and experience - the ones who actually build subwoofers for a living, including the one you own oddly enough - must not be as wise as you.

I don't think many of those guys really share your view that sound has some kind of magic component to it. It is presumptuous of you to assign them your own view. And speaking of experience, note you have done nothing to mitigate your own biases here. No blind testing, no objective measurements, not even A/B switching.

I agree that our discussion has reached its conclusion.

 

[shadyJ]

If one could and effectively would provide measurements that could finitely tell you exactly how good a product would be and everyone in the industry adhered to it then that market would shrink. Companies would not be able to maintain against a bigger competitor willing to put forth the effort to produce the best subwoofers at certain prices levels, effectively killing most of the competition.

CEA-2010 is not a bad metric by which to compare subs, although it does not paint a complete picture. Note the biggest subwoofer companies have not adapted it, so I do not think it is a case of them being able to kill the competition. In actuality, it is the smaller companies that go after CEA-2010 measurements as a way to promote their products, Hsu, Reaction, JTR.

 

[shadyJ]

With the right instruments such as a precise spectrum analyser and right procedures/methodologies, we should be able to compare the music waveform recorded live with that replayed by different subwoofers and determine quantitatively which one comes closest. I will be surprised if the JL Audio subs don't come out ahead in such comparisons. Unfortunately there are no signs of anyone bothering to do such measurements and comparisons. I may email Brian Ding and Ed Mullen about this.

The idea of comparing the waveforms of recordings is an interesting one. One way to do it for bass would be to shave off all the non bass content from the recording, leaving just the subwoofer band you wish to compare. Now compare that to the recording of a subwoofer's playback of that, and you might have something. Do a spectral analysis of both recordings to easily see the differences.

IF I recall correctly, Ed Mullen did do a bit of research into intermodulation distortion with Ilkka Rissanen, and this would be pertinent because intermodulation distortion is what occurs in more complex signals. What they found was that if a subwoofer has good control over harmonic distortion behavior, it will have lower intermodulation distortion. You can read about it in this audioholics article.