Subwoofer choice(PSA,SVS,HSU,JL Audio) for my 5.1 system

[shadyJ]

If there is a car handling analogy to subs, it is how well the cone movement tracks the incoming signal voltage (see Figure 1). The Hsu sub is very likely to do it better. In reality, typical low frequency sound is not that complex. It is just compression waves of air (see figure 3), and the sub is a transducer which turns voltage (fig. 2) into compression waves. It is as simple as figure 1 turning figure 2 into figure 3. Distortion is a measure of how poorly a sub tracks the voltage signal. If a sub has no distortion, either linear or non-linear, it is replaying the signal with total accuracy. It would have perfect performance, but that is, of course, an ideal that can never be achieved. Low distortion is accurate playback, period. The ULS-15 sub is, from what I can see, very likely to reproduce the signal with less distortion than any of the JL Audio 'e' series subwoofers. If you prefer the sound of one sub over the other, that is fine. However, sound quality is not a subjective term, it is a synonym for accuracy, and accuracy can be measured.

Figure 1: subwoofer in motion (hopefully this animated GIF works)

Figure 2: transverse wave of voltage

Figure 3: compression waves in action​

By saying that is some ethereal element that can not be measured, you are trying to mysticize some relatively simple physics. Neither Josh nor Mark are saying performance can not be judged from measurements, and they seem to be saying that CEA-2010 is not the only metric by which a subwoofer should be judged, with which I totally agree with.

 

[Seth=L]

No exaggeration really; what started the nonsense was me saying a JL Audio sub has better SQ than the HSU, which it does. I have first-hand experience with both so my comment is based upon direct exposure. The ULS-15 is a great sub that provides a tremendous amount of value, but it's not quite at the JL Audio level. Sounds like the protagonist might own a ULS-15 so perhaps his feelings were hurt by that realization. No reason for it though, because dollar-for-dollar the HSU is the better deal.

I'd be genuinely curious to know what your experience was in comparison between these two. I'm not asking for double blinds, just your impressions on what made the JL stand out from the HSU.

 

[Seth=L]

You shouldn't post images like that. It makes me feel.... dirty.

 

[Alex2507]

Trolling the Jman for xmas is just gonna get you coal from The Science of Sound Santa.

One more turd for my ignore list and JL subs added to my watch list.

Carry on ...

 

[ski2xblack]

Oh, my brain! Who put all that brandy in the egg nog?

My apologies to Jim for trolling, but I as a bit inebriated, and I was responding specifically to his comment that "JL subs cost more for a reason", without providing any further information. I know Barry Ober, he knows his subs, and I'm sure JL subs are just dandy. And I now see that Jim has acknowledged the value proposition compared to the Hsu, so I think we're on the same page.

Now where is hte advil?

 

[gankum]

Wow..looks like I have sparked a world war with sub.

I'm ready to pull the plug and order ONE sub ( 2nd one in the future, if required..my HT section of the large room is only about 1000 cubic ft(side walls closed 12ft apart), opening to the bigger 4000 cubic ft room at the back. Understand two is better than one for this room dimension).

Where did we end up with ?. I did budget $1.5K for the sub, but that doesn't mean I need to spend it, if a lower priced one can give me the same(or very close to) performance(power,SQ). And my choice is not limited to either of the two..,just looking for a great sub at this price point (and if its compact, all the better).

Thanks guys..

 

[Irvrobinson]

Let's agree on disagree on your Mustang and Camaro example. If engine is the amp - then judging solely by amp power - these are very comparable. You probably don't just judge subs solely by their amps power, right?

If the driver is the suspension , then Mustang's (2015 and newer) independent type is definite HUGE differentiator in how car handing - aka behaves in corners, emergency/racing driving and what you call "feel"

I can't get in the middle of the sub discussion, having never heard a HSU sub, but taking Jman's car analogy too far is tenuous. For aggressive driving pleasure I definitely prefer the higher end Camaros (2SS, ZL1, and Z28) over any 2015 Mustang. The high-end Camaros' handling qualities are just plain better, especially the Z28's, which I almost bought just to have one, but then came to my senses. (Because the 2016 version looks far superior, and, anyway, both pony cars are still too damn big.) I'm also not sure I understand your comment about the Mustang's independent suspension, since the Camaro has had an IRS since the previous generation was introduced in 2010.

 

[PENG]

No exaggeration really; what started the nonsense was me saying a JL Audio sub has better SQ than the HSU, which it does. I have first-hand experience with both so my comment is based upon direct exposure. The ULS-15 is a great sub that provides a tremendous amount of value, but it's not quite at the JL Audio level. Sounds like the protagonist might own a ULS-15 so perhaps his feelings were hurt by that realization. No reason for it though, because dollar-for-dollar the HSU is the better deal.

Just to be clear, I referred to your remarks on "no performance compromises" only. I did value your opinions a lot based on your extensive experience in testing and comparing subs, to the point I decided to go with the E15HP instead of the SB13U that I initially was going to buy. That's assuming (I'm only 90% sure on this) theJman is JimWilson.

 

[shadyJ]

Wow..looks like I have sparked a world war with sub.

I'm ready to pull the plug and order ONE sub ( 2nd one in the future, if required..my HT section of the large room is only about 1000 cubic ft(side walls closed 12ft apart), opening to the bigger 4000 cubic ft room at the back. Understand two is better than one for this room dimension).

Where did we end up with ?. I did budget $1.5K for the sub, but that doesn't mean I need to spend it, if a lower priced one can give me the same(or very close to) performance(power,SQ). And my choice is not limited to either of the two..,just looking for a great sub at this price point (and if its compact, all the better).

Thanks guys..

gankum, if you go with a sealed sub, your space will diminish the low end, so you will get relatively weak deep bass- especially if you go with a JL Audio sub which uses high-pass filters on deep bass. You can't go wrong with Hsu, but if you want strong deep bass, you will want their ported subs, either the VTF15h mk2 or VTF3 mk5. The problem is, any ported sub which can handle that space will not qualify as 'compact'. If you don't listen loudly, the ULS-15 mk2 might do the trick. The Hsu subs will be superior to the JL Audio in not only output but also accuracy.

The Hsu subs all have a discount for buying multiples, so one thing you might do is arrange with Hsu to have the multiples discount available within a certain reasonable window of time, like a month or so, if you decide you want another. They would probably go for that.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I can't get in the middle of the sub discussion, having never heard a HSU sub, but taking Jman's car analogy too far is tenuous. For aggressive driving pleasure I definitely prefer the higher end Camaros (2SS, ZL1, and Z28) over any 2015 Mustang. The high-end Camaros' handling qualities are just plain better, especially the Z28's, which I almost bought just to have one, but then came to my senses. (Because the 2016 version looks far superior, and, anyway, both pony cars are still too damn big.) I'm also not sure I understand your comment about the Mustang's independent suspension, since the Camaro has had an IRS since the previous generation was introduced in 2010.

I was going by this article:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150516/OEM04/150519902/camaro-vs.-mustang:-who-has-the-edge?
It does lists Camaro as IRS, but pony has IFS... My point - It's hard to say from specs alone which one is better - other than they are CLEARLY different, but in cornering testing - surely the winner will come forward...

 

[Irvrobinson]

I was going by this article:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150516/OEM04/150519902/camaro-vs.-mustang:-who-has-the-edge?
It does lists Camaro as IRS, but pony has IFS... My point - It's hard to say from specs alone which one is better - other than they are CLEARLY different, but in cornering testing - surely the winner will come forward...

No, cornering testing won't tell you which car you'd rather own. Not even close. Cars are mechanical devices, and each has a different feel. They make good speakers look virtually identical in performance.

 

[theJman]

The Hsu sub is very likely to do it better.

Based upon what?

​

By saying that is some ethereal element that can not be measured, you are trying to mysticize some relatively simple physics. Neither Josh nor Mark are saying performance can not be judged from measurements, and they seem to be saying that CEA-2010 is not the only metric by which a subwoofer should be judged, with which I totally agree with.

So it takes all of this BS for you to finally hear what I've been saying all along??? I never said performance can't be derived from measurements, only that you can't measure everything. The CEA-2010 tests show a lot, but certainly not every element. That's been my point the entire time. Nothing mystical about it.

 

[theJman]

Just to be clear, I referred to your remarks on "no performance compromises" only. I did value your opinions a lot based on your extensive experience in testing and comparing subs, to the point I decided to go with the E15HP instead of the SB13U that I initially was going to buy. That's assuming (I'm only 90% sure on this) theJman is JimWilson.

You can change that to 100% now.

 

[theJman]

No, cornering testing won't tell you which car you'd rather own. Not even close. Cars are mechanical devices, and each a different feel. They make good speakers look virtually identical in performance.

Your example is precisely why I use the auto analogy vis-a-vis subwoofers. There are things outside of static measurements which influence the overall experience. That, and cars seem to engender the same level of passion from their owners. Most can relate the two.

 

[PENG]

You can change that to 100% now.

Thank you for confirming. By the way, do you remember which sub, the SBU13 or the E15HP has better measurements, of course I mean just what you measured. I like the E15HP so far, actually managed to dial it in with the little LS50s in my other 2 channel system. Just curious about the SBU13 that I never pull the trigger on. I can still either get a second E15HP to turn that 2.1 to 2.1, or get a SBU13, but without SubEQ HT it may be tough to integrate those two manually right?

 

[theJman]

Wow..looks like I have sparked a world war with sub.

I'm ready to pull the plug and order ONE sub ( 2nd one in the future, if required..my HT section of the large room is only about 1000 cubic ft(side walls closed 12ft apart), opening to the bigger 4000 cubic ft room at the back. Understand two is better than one for this room dimension).

Where did we end up with ?. I did budget $1.5K for the sub, but that doesn't mean I need to spend it, if a lower priced one can give me the same(or very close to) performance(power,SQ). And my choice is not limited to either of the two..,just looking for a great sub at this price point (and if its compact, all the better).

Given your room size and needs I think you can take the JL Audio off the table. While it would be more accurate and precise than the others you're looking at, output is something you need a lot of. A small sealed sub can only do so much.

The ULS-15 I had was in a room just under 1800 ft^3 and it did fine, but your space is quite a bit larger and I doubt a single will have sufficient output. Duals would support the space well, but depending upon your expectations they might not meet your needs either. Realistically speaking, you should be looking at ported.

I also reviewed HSU's VTF-3 MK5 and the sound quality was right up there. Output is strong too, so a pair of those should do very well in your room. Rythmik has the FV15HP, which is an absolutely beast. Small it's not though, but duals would also be able to handle that much space. Another very solid choice would be the PSA V1500, but like the rest of the ported subs it's not small. Big bass = big subs.

 

[theJman]

Thank you for confirming. By the way, do you remember which sub, the SBU13 or the E15HP has better measurements, of course I mean just what you measured. I like the E15HP so far, actually managed to dial it in with the little LS50s in my other 2 channel system. Just curious about the SBU13 that I never pull the trigger on. I can still either get a second E15HP to turn that 2.1 to 2.1, or get a SBU13, but without SubEQ HT it may be tough to integrate those two manually right?

PM sent.

 

[shadyJ]

I never said performance can't be derived from measurements, only that you can't measure everything.

What is it about subwoofer performance that you think can not be measured?

 

[theJman]

What is it about subwoofer performance that you think can not be measured?

Essentially the same type of thing that defines a cars handling when it encounters a bump mid-corner. You can calculate skidpad numbers and measure slalom times ad nauseam, but you can not quantify a vehicles reaction when it confronts a non-level surface in the middle of a bend. No metrics currently exist for such a thing, and it's precisely that type of situation which helps define the overall driving experience of a particular car. Same with subwoofers; CEA-2010 tests mostly emphasize burst and short-term measurements, not real world source material with subtilties, minute tonal variations and drawn-out sounds. As such, those test results don't fully capture everything. They can't, because it's impossible for them to account for every potential set of circumstances.

Industry luminaries such as Mark Seaton, Jeff Permanian, Dr. Poh Hsu and Brian Ding have all related some variation of basically the same thing to me; measure, measure, measure, then do the final tune by ear. The last part tells me there's something that can't be picked up by a microphone, something which can only be heard by those who know what to listen for. My experience mirrors their sentiments. If people with their pedigree feel that way I'm certainly not going to argue - it's always wise to defer to those with knowledge, education and a solid background in their chosen field. I have first hand experience with subwoofers from every one of those companies, so I can attest to what they've ultimately created. In the end whatever they're doing works. You can't argue with results.

 

[shadyJ]

If there is something beyond linear cone motion, I would love to know what it is. From my perspective, that is essentially what you are arguing for, and I see it as unscientific. Low-frequency sound is easy to measure; there is nothing a mic is not going to pick up that a person can. In fact, with respect to low frequencies, a decent calibration mic will pick up way more than any human could ever hope to. Human hearing acuity in bass frequencies is abysmal compared to measurement equipment. There is accurate playback and there is distorted playback. If a subwoofer can playback the signal below the threshold of audible distortion, there is nothing else to discuss. Testing equipment such as Klippel gear can tell you if the driver is not accurately reproducing sound long before human hearing can detect those non-linearities.

I am not so sure the industry luminaries you mentioned would agree there is some aspect of sound that can not be measured, unless it related to some subjective aspect. Speaking of which, hasn't it occurred to you that you think the JL Audio sub sounded so good because you expected it to, regardless of how it actually performs? Expectations color perceptions. Let's say you had a $2000 sub from JL Audio and a $200 sub from Polk, both of which sounded exactly the same- do you think you would really perceive the sound to be the same? Personally, in the absence of measurements, I am sure I think the JL Audio sub sounds better. I am as fallable as the next guy. If you are not swayed by these subjective factors, you are superhuman. Hence the need for blind testing and measurements.