does double the speakers equal double the volume

N

nicknewbie

Audioholic Intern
I got the new RP-280f speakers today and they are loud , but I have a question for the true audioholics on here...if I added 2 more of the same speakers would the volume be double what it is now?
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Did you play with the SPL Calculator I linked to you in the other thread? If not it will answer your question.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I got the new RP-280f speakers today and they are loud , but I have a question for the true audioholics on here...if I added 2 more of the same speakers would the volume be double what it is now?
No, because the relationship of loudness to power is logarithmic. To make it twice as loud you need to increase power by a factor of 10 and not two.

Now if you put two of the same speakers side by side you get a gain of 3db from being side by side. If the speakers are connected in parallel then the impedance would be halved. Assuming this does not blow up the amplifier, which it might well, and that the amplifier has the current reserve, the two speakers will draw twice the power from the amplifier, so you would have 6 db increase in loudness.

However putting two speakers side by side sounds awful, as it unbalances the frequency response, as the two speakers interfere with each other. Because of the spacing some frequencies will add and others cancel, giving frequency peaks and nulls. In addition you would get a peculiar dispersion pattern known as lobing.

If you want more power, then you need a set of speakers designed for high power operation properly powered.

I have to say you seem to be flogging this to death. What you are proposing will, not might, leave you with sensineural high frequency hearing loss. It will be severe and render you incapable of hearing a normal conversation without powerful hearing aids. In the worst case you might put yourself in need of cochlear implants.

I suspect also you want to blast loud crude rock music. This is a ghastly damaging genre of music largely performed by drug addicted degenerates of scruffy appearance.

There are far more satisfying genres of music to be found.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
I got the new RP-280f speakers today and they are loud , but I have a question for the true audioholics on here...if I added 2 more of the same speakers would the volume be double what it is now?
No, but you are likely to experience some phase cancellation (reduction in sound quality.)
 
N

nicknewbie

Audioholic Intern
No, because the relationship of loudness to power is logarithmic. To make it twice as loud you need to increase power by a factor of 10 and not two.

Now if you put two of the same speakers side by side you get a gain of 3db from being side by side. If the speakers are connected in parallel then the impedance would be halved. Assuming this does not blow up the amplifier, which it might well, and that the amplifier has the current reserve, the two speakers will draw twice the power from the amplifier, so you would have 6 db increase in loudness.

However putting two speakers side by side sounds awful, as it unbalances the frequency response, as the two speakers interfere with each other. Because of the spacing some frequencies will add and others cancel, giving frequency peaks and nulls. In addition you would get a peculiar dispersion pattern known as lobing.

If you want more power, then you need a set of speakers designed for high power operation properly powered.

I have to say you seem to be flogging this to death. What you are proposing will, not might, leave you with sensineural high frequency hearing loss. It will be severe and render you incapable of hearing a normal conversation without powerful hearing aids. In the worst case you might put yourself in need of cochlear implants.

I suspect also you want to blast loud crude rock music. This is a ghastly damaging genre of music largely performed by drug addicted degenerates of scruffy appearance.

There are far more satisfying genres of music to be found.
Nice find! That article was written for Nick:

That is of course with 11 being on a scale of 10!
you are wrong on that one KEW,...that ghastly damaging genre of music you speak of with its drug addicted degenerates is not for me. It was at one time, when I was much younger...You see I grew up in prison(s), Parchman Penitentary(6yrs.) ,Orleans Old Parish Prison(4yrs.),Washington correctional institute(3yrs.) just to mention a few. I was exposed (transformed) to nothing but R&B, Blues, and yes RAP.....SO,.... I am a 48 year old white man who occasionally listens to Nate dogg, that being said, My favorite genre(if I had to pick just one) would be R&B...although yesterday I found a song by Infected Mushroom titled 'I shine" , that I will be playing a lot today I am sure of. I love Cajun music, (chris ardoin-gud whiskey) listening it to now as I eat my oatmeal,blueberries and walnuts....yes sir, life is good now for ole nobody like me, with my cheap klipsch speakers and my desire to rattle the roof.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
you are wrong on that one KEW,...that ghastly damaging genre of music you speak of with its drug addicted degenerates is not for me. It was at one time, when I was much younger...You see I grew up in prison(s), Parchman Penitentary(6yrs.) ,Orleans Old Parish Prison(4yrs.),Washington correctional institute(3yrs.) just to mention a few. I was exposed (transformed) to nothing but R&B, Blues, and yes RAP.....SO,.... I am a 48 year old white man who occasionally listens to Nate dogg, that being said, My favorite genre(if I had to pick just one) would be R&B...although yesterday I found a song by Infected Mushroom titled 'I shine" , that I will be playing a lot today I am sure of. I love Cajun music, (chris ardoin-gud whiskey) listening it to now as I eat my oatmeal,blueberries and walnuts....yes sir, life is good now for ole nobody like me, with my cheap klipsch speakers and my desire to rattle the roof.
You are mixing me up with TLSGuy. I never commented on your music preference!
My comment was regarding your penchant for loud volume!

But the truly important thing is you are enjoying the music!
... and, as is obvious by now, we don't want to see you lose your hearing.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
you are wrong on that one KEW,...that ghastly damaging genre of music you speak of with its drug addicted degenerates is not for me. It was at one time, when I was much younger...You see I grew up in prison(s), Parchman Penitentary(6yrs.) ,Orleans Old Parish Prison(4yrs.),Washington correctional institute(3yrs.) just to mention a few. I was exposed (transformed) to nothing but R&B, Blues, and yes RAP.....SO,.... I am a 48 year old white man who occasionally listens to Nate dogg, that being said, My favorite genre(if I had to pick just one) would be R&B...although yesterday I found a song by Infected Mushroom titled 'I shine" , that I will be playing a lot today I am sure of. I love Cajun music, (chris ardoin-gud whiskey) listening it to now as I eat my oatmeal,blueberries and walnuts....yes sir, life is good now for ole nobody like me, with my cheap klipsch speakers and my desire to rattle the roof.
He might not be right about your taste in music, but he is right about your inevitable hearing loss. If you want to make your system a lot louder without actually getting a lot louder in dangerous frequency bands, add some big subwoofers. I would be looking at some pro-audio live sound subwoofers. That may be what you are missing all along anyway and what you are trying to compensate for. Some mid-fi Klipsch speakers throttled to the max volume on an AVR should be ear-piercing, I don't know how you can stand it, and I suspect it may be compensation for some existent hearing loss. Enjoy the music while you can, because at this rate, you will not be able to clearly hear it for much longer, especially at your age, when age-related effects can take a toll on your hearing even without the abuse.
 
N

nicknewbie

Audioholic Intern
He might not be right about your taste in music, but he is right about your inevitable hearing loss. If you want to make your system a lot louder without actually getting a lot louder in dangerous frequency bands, add some big subwoofers. I would be looking at some pro-audio live sound subwoofers. That may be what you are missing all along anyway and what you are trying to compensate for. Some mid-fi Klipsch speakers throttled to the max volume on an AVR should be ear-piercing, I don't know how you can stand it, and I suspect it may be compensation for some existent hearing loss. Enjoy the music while you can, because at this rate, you will not be able to clearly hear it for much longer, especially at your age, when age-related effects can take a toll on your hearing even without the abuse.
I have a svs -sb2000 that I just spent $700 on and to be honest I am not that impressed with it....I read a lot of reviews and people said it was a "great" sub for music listening but to me it is just "ok". I think I should of went with the pb-2000 instead. it is ported and I think it would hit a lot harder than the sb-2000. I had some reservations about getting a sealed sub but did it anyway......probably will be returning it soon. I thought about you last night shadyj at my churches Christmas play,"come see the lamb",They had some very loud speakers hanging in the roof and I was wishing I had them hanging in my living room....haha ...Hell I might end up doing just that....and YES the klipsch had my ears ringing a little today but they are fine now....check out this song on your system by, Infected Mushroom , its called "I SHINE". IT WILL definitely put your system to the test....I just knew my tweeters were going to catch on fire any minute, but they held up even with the volume at 80......whats your take on sealed subs vs. ported? which ones do you have?
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
You need subs that match your room and listening habits. The sb2000 is a nice sub, very nice, its not for you.(albeit that you werent crossing them over optimally which should improve the performance) how long ago did you buy the svs? you have 45 days and you can send back (I assume you still are with the 45 days) and trade up. PB12 plus would fit your bill
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I have a svs -sb2000 that I just spent $700 on and to be honest I am not that impressed with it....I read a lot of reviews and people said it was a "great" sub for music listening but to me it is just "ok". I think I should of went with the pb-2000 instead. it is ported and I think it would hit a lot harder than the sb-2000. I had some reservations about getting a sealed sub but did it anyway......probably will be returning it soon. I thought about you last night shadyj at my churches Christmas play,"come see the lamb",They had some very loud speakers hanging in the roof and I was wishing I had them hanging in my living room....haha ...Hell I might end up doing just that....and YES the klipsch had my ears ringing a little today but they are fine now....check out this song on your system by, Infected Mushroom , its called "I SHINE". IT WILL definitely put your system to the test....I just knew my tweeters were going to catch on fire any minute, but they held up even with the volume at 80......whats your take on sealed subs vs. ported? which ones do you have?
The SVS 12" subs are relatively low output subwoofers. They do not at all fit the criteria for your listening tastes. The PB2000 will not get much louder than the SB2000, it will just dig a bit deeper. You need a 15" at the very least. I would be looking at a Hsu VTF3 mk5 or a Reaction Gamma 18 if you can afford them. They will hit a lot harder than the SVS subs. If you can accommodate a live sound subwoofer like one of these, that might even be better for you, because these can get very loud.

Your ears are not fine if they were ringing. That is probably tinnitus which is indicative of some noise induced hearing loss. You may be able to undo some of the damage if you give your ears a break from loud sounds for a couple days, there are some mechanisms of recovery if they are not subjected to any more high pressures (ie loud sounds). This can help prevent a temporary threshold shift from turning into a permanent threshold shift. What I mean by that is that your ability to hear quiet sounds lessen, and it might only last a short while or it can be permanent. You do not want to be the guy who goes around saying WHAT WHAT WHAT all the time, which is what you are heading towards. I like loud music too, but I pay attention to noise exposure guidelines, I am trying to save my hearing for future use.

By the way, you might think it hypocritical that I am suggesting you get a louder sub and then warning you about noise induced hearing loss, but hearing is less affected affected by bass frequencies. To be sure, loud bass can cause hearing loss, but it takes more sound pressure at low frequencies. The frequencies you are overdoing it are at treble frequencies, which is easy to see as you are cooking your tweeters. Your hearing is most vulnerable at 3000 to 4000 Hz, which is also a crucial range for understanding speech, so you do want to protect that frequency band.
 
N

nicknewbie

Audioholic Intern
The SVS 12" subs are relatively low output subwoofers. They do not at all fit the criteria for your listening tastes. The PB2000 will not get much louder than the SB2000, it will just dig a bit deeper. You need a 15" at the very least. I would be looking at a Hsu VTF3 mk5 or a Reaction Gamma 18 if you can afford them. They will hit a lot harder than the SVS subs. If you can accommodate a live sound subwoofer like one of these, that might even be better for you, because these can get very loud.

Your ears are not fine if they were ringing. That is probably tinnitus which is indicative of some noise induced hearing loss. You may be able to undo some of the damage if you give your ears a break from loud sounds for a couple days, there are some mechanisms of recovery if they are not subjected to any more high pressures (ie loud sounds). This can help prevent a temporary threshold shift from turning into a permanent threshold shift. What I mean by that is that your ability to hear quiet sounds lessen, and it might only last a short while or it can be permanent. You do not want to be the guy who goes around saying WHAT WHAT WHAT all the time, which is what you are heading towards. I like loud music too, but I pay attention to noise exposure guidelines, I am trying to save my hearing for future use.

By the way, you might think it hypocritical that I am suggesting you get a louder sub and then warning you about noise induced hearing loss, but hearing is less affected affected by bass frequencies. To be sure, loud bass can cause hearing loss, but it takes more sound pressure at low frequencies. The frequencies you are overdoing it are at treble frequencies, which is easy to see as you are cooking your tweeters. Your hearing is most vulnerable at 3000 to 4000 Hz, which is also a crucial range for understanding speech, so you do want to protect that frequency band.
I wish I could hear a live sound sub....do they dig deep or just play loud? To be honest, I am looking for something that will rattle the rafters,"seriously"... will the live sound subs connect to my denon receiver?
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I wish I could hear a live sound sub....do they dig deep or just play loud? To be honest, I am looking for something that will rattle the rafters,"seriously"... will the live sound subs connect to my denon receiver?
call it a day :D

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-218ht/

or structural damage

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=119
http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/orbit-shifter-lfu/

both probably need you to install a 30a dedicated circuit
 
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crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I cant crossover, I am anal about things and I will not rest until I am satisfied.....what is your take on live sound subwoofer for home audio ?
Call it a day was just order one of these
thats basically what I just linked. Jeff cut his teeth and still does Pro Sound
 
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