LFE level on Yamaha RX-Z9

[JOHN FICKEL]

The only thing I question PENG, is why then, when I turned my LFE level to -10 did my subs not kick on. Again my master volume was at -25? That's pretty loud. And as you said , all of the other signals are being sent to my subs because everything is set small. (Bass out) set to sub. And I now have my crossover freq at 60hz. So again why weren't my subs kicking on even when I approached -25 ? When I turned my master volume back to -79 then adjust LFE back too 0. Subs then kicked on at -40. The master volume starts at -80 and goes to +16

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

It's just weird. There was no LFE signal present. It was just normal bass from the program on. But the subs should have kicked on much sooner than -25.

 

[PENG]

It's just weird. There was no LFE signal present. It was just normal bass from the program on. But the subs should have kicked on much sooner than -25.

You did say your sub levels were set to -3.5 and -5.5. If you have time do a little experiment described below.

1) You have already set all speakers to small, but now set crossovers of your front, centre and surrounds to 100 Hz, just to make sure there are low frequency signals sent to the subwoofers when playing non DD and DTS programs.

2) Manually increase the levels of the two subwoofers (in the RX-Z9, not the subwoofer volume knob) to 0.

3) Set LFE level to -10 again.

4) Now play some CDs or whatever media programs that you know for sure has a lot of bass below 100 Hz but contain no LFE channel signal; and in Stereo mode to make sure the AVR will use the subwoofer.

5) Start with the AVR master volume at say -25, at where you said it would not wake up the subwoofers.

6) Increase the master volume gradually, say 1 dB at a time and find out at what point the subwoofers will be kick in.

Record every details, then repeat the above steps but with LFE level set back to 0 so you can compare at what master volume the subwoofers kick in.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. And no my subs at that time were +5 lol. When I had my LFE down too -10. I just ran YPAO a few days ago now they are at those current levels. -3.5 and -5.5 both. Sub volumes on subs at 10 :00

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I will definitely try the test . But one more time just to be clear, when I adjusted my LFE to -10 my subs at that time where at +5. And as I said before when I approached -25 and further than that,my the subs were not kicking on. Now after running YPAO my subs are at -3.5 and -5.5. I will definitely run the test. Before running YPAO , All things being equal, all I did at that point was raise my LFE back to 0 and all of a sudden the subs are kicking on a lot sooner. I am so damn curious now I will definitely run that test. But will you please answer just one other question? why would I not adjust the volume on the back of the subs ? The volume on the back of the subs control everything that goes into the subs? while the volume in the AVR only adjust the frequency cut off point ?

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I was running just two channel audio yesterday with no LFE singnal at all... And there was no (EFFECT ) at all with the LFE level control. No change at all while adjusting from -20 - 0 ... Now my subs were already on. But I don't think the LFE level adjustment would have effected that either . You are right

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Tonight I will play 5.1 movie or program, and see if the bass all goes away with LFE adjusted all the way down . Or if the subs even kick on . My guess is they will not and bass will not be there.

 

[herbu]

And I now have my crossover freq at 60hz.

That's pretty low. Try's PENG's suggestion of testing at 100Hz. It would be easy to think your subs aren't putting out much because there's not much below 60Hz in your test material.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I definitely will just haven't really had the time yet. You and PENG have helped me out a great deal. I have learned a lot For example The ratio of the LFE level relatative to the level of the bass from the main channels should not be adjusted in the AV controller. The ratio should be such that LFE signals are 10 DB louder than signals of equivalent level in any other channel. There is no other logical reason to adjust the level of the LFE channel separately from the main channel bass. Doing so irreparably alters the mix intended by the sound engineer . I found that info on another site . But you guys say the same thing. The LFE LEVEL should have no effect on two channel music unless it's DTS music. As far as Dolby digital and DTS Movies , With all the channels set small now the the bass from those channels are in the LFE, Which is not a subwoofer channel, but a Avenue for deep bass to go to protect the other speakers. But now with all the bass from all the other channels being in the LFE , during DTS OR Dolby digital play back , if one were to turn there LFE down or off nothing should be there. Adjusting the LFE down should also level down or turn down the cut off frequency bass as well.

 

[herbu]

With all the channels set small now the the bass from those channels are in the LFE

No.
With all the speakers set to Small, the bass from those channels is routed to the same subwoofer output on your AVR as the LFE.

LFE is a separate channel. Nothing from anywhere else is ever added to it.
Think of it this way:
You connect both your Left speaker wire and your Right speaker wire to the same speaker. Now that speaker plays both your Left and Right channel. In your AVR, you can adjust the Left volume w/o affecting the Right, and vice versa. Even though both are playing through the same speaker.

LFE and normal bass are like that. They come out of the same subwoofer output, they travel along the same cable and they are played by the same speaker. But they are separate signals. You can adjust one without affecting the other.

Your experience of turning off ALL bass by turning down LFE is an anomaly, and that's what we've been trying to figure out.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. Thank you. I GOT IT lol. And remember one thing it's not the bass that went away, well it is I guess. I had adjusted my LFE down to -10 and my SUBWOOFERS would not kick on . I even turned my volume up too -25 master volume and still nothing . I will try again. I think it goes back to that statement that none of us really understood. That depending on the settings of the LFE level, some signals may not be output from the subwoofer jack. Thank you so much for that post. That made me understand clearly

 

[PENG]

The only thing I question PENG, is why then, when I turned my LFE level to -10 did my subs not kick on. Again my master volume was at -25? That's pretty loud. And as you said , all of the other signals are being sent to my subs because everything is set small. (Bass out) set to sub.

Could be the program material that did not have much low frequency contents below your crossover point. The AVR can only send bass signal out to the subs if the program content has such bass signal.

And I now have my crossover freq at 60hz. So again why weren't my subs kicking on even when I approached -25 ? When I turned my master volume back to -79 then adjust LFE back too 0. Subs then kicked on at -40. The master volume starts at -80 and goes to +16

Herbu sort of answered that for me already. It is possible that the program material you played don't have much below 60 Hz, that's why I suggest you temporarily set XO to 100 Hz when doing that little experiement I suggested. If YPAO set your suwoofer level too low, that wouldn't help either. Your other speakers has very high sensitivity, so I do think for whatever reason, YPAO has set your subwoofer level (in the AVR) too low. You said -3.5 and -5.5, that's much lower than those set for the other speakers, something just don't seem right.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yea I agree. I try your test this weekend. And I will check all my levels with my SPL METER. And my subs were crossed over 80 hz when they wouldn't kick on . It could be the size of the room. It's an L shaped living room. I wouldn't say it's crazy large , it's probably 15x 20

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

It has to be that there wasn't much bass under the cut off frequency, all I was watching at that time was a football game.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Cause like you guys said this whole time, the LFE adjustment should not have any Effect on anything except for when Dolby Digital or DTS is being decoded by the receiver. other than that it should have no Effect on anything else or do anything else. Like HERBU said there are two entirely different signals being sent to the SUB. And the LFE CONTROL or level , should not have. Any bearing on the volume of NORMAL BASS from all the other channels. Even in Dolby Digital or DTS content . So that adjustment Has no bearing on the input sensitivity of the subwoofer amplifier either ?

 

[herbu]

It has to be that there wasn't much bass under the cut off frequency, all I was watching at that time was a football game.

Bless your heart. Try testing w/ something you KNOW has bass, like a bass-heavy song on a CD.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I did. And YOU were right ! I turned on my Z9. My fiancé turned on a TV show, "person of interest ". Now once I turned on my Z9 I went right to LFE AND dropped it to -20, Ok now I did not change my crossover frequency, this had to be quick lol. So she turned on her tv show and I turned up the master volume on the Z9 , "and BASS!! " Now my LFE IS AT -20 for this test. And subs kicked on right away and bass sounded awesome. Just no LFE. So the subs kicked on like normal and sounded great. After test I put my LFE BACK TO 0 . The LFE level had NO effect on crossover freq or Amplifier input sensitivity

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

So it was the football game that did that to me, cause like you said, Not much under the crossover freq probably. Just for the hell of it I will try CDs this weekend. Lol. But LFE effects only LFE. NOTHING ELSE LOL. THANK YOU BOTH . And LFE SHOULd be left at 0

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Iv tried all the tests and PENG, and HERBU were right. The movie test ! When the system is first turned on, before the subs came on , LFE WAS adjusted to -20. Outcome was, subs still came on because the system is bass managed . LFE had No effect on subs ( turning on ). Subs came on like normal. MUSIC , same test, LFE had no effect on input senativity what so ever. Subs came on still like normal. LFE does not have any effect on subs coming on or not. Also LFE HAD NO EFFECT on the bass managed bass, from the other channels . The LFE ONLY effects Only What it says. " LFE LEVEL" only. It is its own( channel) seperate from the bass managed bass from all the other channels. And ONLY has an effect when your receiver / surround pre:amp decodes Dolby Digital or DTS. And even then it is just a hand full of senes in those movies with the big special effects( LFE) which will play 10db higher than the other channels, even when one increases the normal bass, LFE will automatically trax at 10db higher.

 

[PENG]

Iv tried all the tests and PENG, and HERBU were right. The movie test ! When the system is first turned on, before the subs came on , LFE WAS adjusted to -20. Outcome was, subs still came on because the system is bass managed . LFE had No effect on subs ( turning on ). Subs came on like normal. MUSIC , same test, LFE had no effect on input senativity what so ever. Subs came on still like normal. LFE does not have any effect on subs coming on or not. Also LFE HAD NO EFFECT on the bass managed bass, from the other channels . The LFE ONLY effects Only What it says. " LFE LEVEL" only. It is its own( channel) seperate from the bass managed bass from all the other channels. And ONLY has an effect when your receiver / surround pre:amp decodes Dolby Digital or DTS. And even then is a hand full of senes in those movies with big special effects. Which will play 10db higher than the other channels, even when one increases the normal bass, LFE will automatically trax at 10db higher.

John, given that the instruction manuals typically do not explain clearly enough about LFE channel bass, redirected (you called it managed) bass from speakers set to small, LPF, LFE+Main, subwoofer level, and LFE level, plus the fact that a lot of people don't follow Audssey, YPAO, MCACC etc. procedures, I wonder how many people are not doing justice to their bass.

Since you bull dog on getting answers to your questions, you are probably becoming one of the most knowledgeable person on those confusing terminologies. I hope you will help others when questions on such topics pop up again.

By the way, I still think your auto EQ is not doing everything right and I highly recommend you use proper test tones and SPL meter to set up your sub manually. If you are going to do it, read Gene's review on the RX-Z9 first, and then read up on how to set subs up manually.

The simplest and quickest way to make some audible gain is to just set the subwoofer level manually with proper test tones and SPL meter, while leaving distance the same, i.e. trust YPAO on that one.