Disappointed in bass response

[Blue Dude]

Im sure he would be happy with your situation, however his two subs are not applicable for his room. In a smaller room and a music only system, Im sure these two subs would ok for most music, but never for HT

I didn't mean to imply that his current subs would be adequate. They're not - they don't have enough output or extension. I merely made a recommendation that might meet his budget.

Given his desire for slam, paired with a willingness to spend more later, he'd probably be better off replacing them one at a time with monsters or near-monsters. I'm partial to SVS, so maybe a PB12-Plus now and another later. They'll honor the dual sub discount even if they're bought at different times. He only has 3500 ft^3 to pressurize so more output from even larger subs would probably be wasted.

 

[Ras777]

I have to admit the SVS PB12-Plus look very tempting. But considering my room size I would most likely need two. And at $1250 a piece that is hard to justify. How would you feel about going with two HSU VTF-15H MK2 for a savings of $700? Is the difference in performance really worth $700 dollars? And this begs the question do I really need two subs?? Would a larger more powerful one do the work of two?

 

[shadyJ]

I have to admit the SVS PB12-Plus look very tempting. But considering my room size I would most likely need two. And at $1250 a piece that is hard to justify. How would you feel about going with two HSU VTF-15H MK2 for a savings of $700? Is the difference in performance really worth $700 dollars? And this begs the question do I really need two subs?? Would a larger more powerful one do the work of two?

Hsu doesn't include shipping in their listed price, but shipping costs are on the product page. A hsu VTF15h mk2 dual drive is 2036 shipped, whereas dual PB12 Plus will go for 2650. Given that the VTF15h will likely outperform the PB12 Plus, I would go for the Hsu subs, even if the prices were equal. If you wanted to save money, go for a pair of VTF3 mk5s, they are pretty close in performance to the VTF15h mk2. The VTF15h mk2 will have a performance edge below 25 Hz, but probably a lot of people wouldn't miss 3 dB at 20 hz and below very much unless they are cranking their system hard.

 

[Blue Dude]

I have to admit the SVS PB12-Plus look very tempting. But considering my room size I would most likely need two. And at $1250 a piece that is hard to justify. How would you feel about going with two HSU VTF-15H MK2 for a savings of $700? Is the difference in performance really worth $700 dollars? And this begs the question do I really need two subs?? Would a larger more powerful one do the work of two?

I only mentioned the PB12-Plus because it has more output that the PB-2000 I'm familiar with. There's nothing wrong with the Hsu model; I'm just not familiar with it. I know that the DSP on the SVS amp won't allow you to clip or bottom out the driver no matter how loud you attempt to play something, but I'm not sure the Hsu has the same build in protections, if that matters to you.

The two subs vs. one monster sub decision depends on what your intended use is. For a single listening position that doesn't happen to be in a room mode, it doesn't really matter. I found that the bass tended to be boomy with a single monster sub, mostly because of room modes. EQ can only do so much to help, and even then only for a single position. I didn't need all that output, I just needed more even bass. I found that even with less capable subs, placed opposite each other in the room, that the bass was smoother, more even, and room filling in a way that was lacking coming from a single sub. Bass was actually "quieter" sounding, even though the SPL was the same. What I didn't hear anymore were the bloaty peaks at specific frequencies, which tended to overpower the bass on specific notes. Suddenly, the bass was integrated into the sound field instead of drawing attention to itself.

Even though the new subs are less capable of the insane SPL of the old one, I enjoy the bass more than I did, so I consider it a good trade.

 

[lsiberian]

I have to admit the SVS PB12-Plus look very tempting. But considering my room size I would most likely need two. And at $1250 a piece that is hard to justify. How would you feel about going with two HSU VTF-15H MK2 for a savings of $700? Is the difference in performance really worth $700 dollars? And this begs the question do I really need two subs?? Would a larger more powerful one do the work of two?

IMO it's better to get one large sub then two smaller ones. It makes upgrading down the line very simple. Honestly I don't think you can go wrong with either option.

 

[Hobbit]

IMO it's better to get one large sub then two smaller ones. It makes upgrading down the line very simple. Honestly I don't think you can go wrong with either option.

I'm completely in the opposite corner as you on this one. When I've talked the the folks at HSU and SVS they both recommended two smaller subs over one large.

 

[ski2xblack]

I think Gene feels that way too, regarding one big sub vs. an array of smaller subs. But it depends on future upgrade path, too. Two proper subs, eventually, is cheaper and less upgrade related hassle than two mid-level subs now and two big subs later.

 

[Auditor55]

I think Gene feels that way too, regarding one big sub vs. an array of smaller subs. But it depends on future upgrade path, too. Two proper subs, eventually, is cheaper and less upgrade related hassle than two mid-level subs now and two big subs later.

Most experts would agree with multiple subs over one mega sub. As for upgrading, one should take under consideration "the point of diminishing returns", its always smart to do so. How much money are you going to spend with nominal at best returns?

 

[herbu]

( 70% movies 30% music)... I am leaning towards the HSU VTF 15H MK2. Buying one now and another in 3 to 6 months. The Rythmik FV15HP also is in the running.

I get that you're looking for the thump in movies. I don't think you have to worry too much about "muddy" bass because:
1) None of the subs recommended by established members here will be "muddy".
2) During your 30% music, I'm guessing you don't listen at concert levels.
I think most of us use different setting in our AVR for movies and music. Mine is set to automatically give a higher sub level for TV/movies, and a lower level for music. It's easy to do, and will likely prevent any "muddy" sounds in music with any of the highly recommended subs here.

Regarding HSU vs Rythmik, both are highly regarded here. I happen to have the FV15HP, (in a large room w/ cathedral ceiling). I'll tell you I think it can rupture your spleen w/ thumps and thuds if you crank it up. I later added an SVS PB13U for balance, not for more thuds. However, I think that by itself it could knock your chair over if you cranked it up.

Bottom line: If you want the thud, get a big strong sub. Use your smaller sub with it for balance if you want. Get a 2nd big boy later if you want.

 

[Ras777]

More great advice thank you. I take it that many of you don't mind mis-matching multiple subs. I remember Gene stating in one of his videos that you should use the same exact sub if you decide to go with multiple subs...any thoughts?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

More great advice thank you. I take it that many of you don't mind mis-matching multiple subs. I remember Gene stating in one of his videos that you should use the same exact sub if you decide to go with multiple subs...any thoughts?

Gene is correct. Mismatching subs is not ideal, but possible to do right, if one knows the limitations and correctly integrated - which is much more tricky process than two identical subs

 

[TLS Guy]

I get that you're looking for the thump in movies. I don't think you have to worry too much about "muddy" bass because:
1) None of the subs recommended by established members here will be "muddy".
2) During your 30% music, I'm guessing you don't listen at concert levels.
I think most of us use different setting in our AVR for movies and music. Mine is set to automatically give a higher sub level for TV/movies, and a lower level for music. It's easy to do, and will likely prevent any "muddy" sounds in music with any of the highly recommended subs here.

Regarding HSU vs Rythmik, both are highly regarded here. I happen to have the FV15HP, (in a large room w/ cathedral ceiling). I'll tell you I think it can rupture your spleen w/ thumps and thuds if you crank it up. I later added an SVS PB13U for balance, not for more thuds. However, I think that by itself it could knock your chair over if you cranked it up.

Bottom line: If you want the thud, get a big strong sub. Use your smaller sub with it for balance if you want. Get a 2nd big boy later if you want.

I don't understand why you would want to change settings between music and movies. It seems to me good is good. I have not changed any LFE or speaker settings in two or more years.

Everything is fine for music, movies and TV or anything thrown at it.

I don't actually change settings on any of my three systems.

If something needs changing depending on program, then my suspicion is that something is not right.

 

[shadyJ]

I don't understand why you would want to change settings between music and movies. It seems to me good is good. I have not changed any LFE or speaker settings in two or more years.

Everything is fine for music, movies and TV or anything thrown at it.

I don't actually change settings on any of my three systems.

If something needs changing depending on program, then my suspicion is that something is not right.

+1, accurate bass is accurate bass. It is blind to content. You either have accurate bass playback or you do not, movies or music do not matter. Some people like to run their bass hot or they like to EQ a bump in their bass, and that is just fine- I like to bump up the bass for electronic music myself, but it is no longer accurately playing back what the artist or sound engineer intended. If you are interested in fidelity, get the frequency flat at the listening position and leave it alone.

 

[Auditor55]

More great advice thank you. I take it that many of you don't mind mis-matching multiple subs. I remember Gene stating in one of his videos that you should use the same exact sub if you decide to go with multiple subs...any thoughts?

You have to experiment. Try it out.

 

[herbu]

I don't understand why you would want to change settings between music and movies. It seems to me good is good.

The answer is simple. For music, I usually want accuracy. If the artist intended the bass to be loud, it's loud. If not, it's not. (Of course that assumes the sound engineers had their mix approved by the artist.)

However, movies and TV are different.
1. We like the Center turned up so we can more easily understand dialog.
2. I like the thump in action movies, so I turn up the subs for them. I have the crossover for my L/R at 40Hz, so turning up the subs mainly affects only the low stuff. It is my preference, and I'm not alone. Frankly I don't understand why you don't understand.

 

[lsiberian]

The answer is simple. For music, I usually want accuracy. If the artist intended the bass to be loud, it's loud. If not, it's not. (Of course that assumes the sound engineers had their mix approved by the artist.)

However, movies and TV are different.
1. We like the Center turned up so we can more easily understand dialog.
2. I like the thump in action movies, so I turn up the subs for them. I have the crossover for my L/R at 40Hz, so turning up the subs mainly affects only the low stuff. It is my preference, and I'm not alone. Frankly I don't understand why you don't understand.

I think you actually need more accuracy for movies than the pop or rock music many of us listen too.

 

[Auditor55]

+1, accurate bass is accurate bass. It is blind to content. You either have accurate bass playback or you do not, movies or music do not matter. Some people like to run their bass hot or they like to EQ a bump in their bass, and that is just fine- I like to bump up the bass for electronic music myself, but it is no longer accurately playing back what the artist or sound engineer intended. If you are interested in fidelity, get the frequency flat at the listening position and leave it alone.

People like Gene and others argue that a flat frequency response isn't that good. That it won't sound good, it would produce a boring sound.

 

[Auditor55]

The answer is simple. For music, I usually want accuracy. If the artist intended the bass to be loud, it's loud. If not, it's not. (Of course that assumes the sound engineers had their mix approved by the artist.)

However, movies and TV are different.
1. We like the Center turned up so we can more easily understand dialog.
2. I like the thump in action movies, so I turn up the subs for them. I have the crossover for my L/R at 40Hz, so turning up the subs mainly affects only the low stuff. It is my preference, and I'm not alone. Frankly I don't understand why you don't understand.

I agree

 

[Auditor55]

I get that you're looking for the thump in movies. I don't think you have to worry too much about "muddy" bass because:
1) None of the subs recommended by established members here will be "muddy".
2) During your 30% music, I'm guessing you don't listen at concert levels.
I think most of us use different setting in our AVR for movies and music. Mine is set to automatically give a higher sub level for TV/movies, and a lower level for music. It's easy to do, and will likely prevent any "muddy" sounds in music with any of the highly recommended subs here.

Regarding HSU vs Rythmik, both are highly regarded here. I happen to have the FV15HP, (in a large room w/ cathedral ceiling). I'll tell you I think it can rupture your spleen w/ thumps and thuds if you crank it up. I later added an SVS PB13U for balance, not for more thuds. However, I think that by itself it could knock your chair over if you cranked it up.

Bottom line: If you want the thud, get a big strong sub. Use your smaller sub with it for balance if you want. Get a 2nd big boy later if you want.

Any one of those sub-woofers can produce muddy bass if not set up right.

 

[crossedover]

People like Gene and others argue that a flat frequency response isn't that good. That it won't sound good, it would produce a boring sound.

Id bet you that statement was directed at speakers not subs, and even then with a flat speaker you can tailor the sound with eq without taxing the amp section above 100hz.