Review and comment, AVR & system upgrade

[KenM10759]

Hi folks. You're a knowledgeable group and I value your input so I want to explain my situation and gather some opinions.

My current situation is that I have a Denon AVR1912 as the root of a 5.1 system. Because of my room situation now and for the for-seeable future, my viewing distance now and going forward, I've decided that anything beyond a 7.1 just isn't ever going to happen. Not for at least 10-15 years.

The speakers are now an SVS SB1000 sub, KEF R500 L-R mains, R200C center, and R100 rear/surround. I have a Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player, Sony CDP-CE500 changer, and an Audio Technica AT-LP60 turntable (which isn't connected right now.)The current TV is embarrassing, so I'm going to pick up a 55" 1080P LED today, either Sony or Samsung. Going to 4K now doesn't really do anything but waste money as we sit over 10 feet away, up to 13 feet. The TV is used 80% just watching cable TV programs, 10% BR movies, and 10% Netflix. (My wife watches a LOT more Netflix on her bedroom TV.)

My system is used at least 80% for 2.1 stereo, playing CD's. I have a budget for the receiver of up to $1200, though prefer to stay under $1000 if possible. The reason I feel I should upgrade the receiver is that it has started going into protect mode at the SPL I now enjoy and it's annoying. Of course because the L-R mains are now so much better, my mind wonders if I'd hear a noticeable difference with a better sound quality receiver and music source material.

Today my son and I will install a new TV, switch to feeding the Denon via optical from the CD player, and assign the channels 6&7 to bi-amp the mains. We will dial it in for surround and 2.1 stereo with his SPL meter because I've had issues with the Audyssey which came with the Denon working right. (Sounded like crap in 5.1 after calibration.) This is a temporary solution to the amp power problem in 2.1 at higher levels, and a test to see if optical feed to the receiver's DAC sounds better than using the CDP-CE500's regular output. I will say I'm NOT unhappy with what I get out of it now, just want to know if it sounds better.

Cliff notes summary:

My local AV store where I bought the KEF speakers is suggesting that for my needs, perhaps an NAD T758 receiver would result in more actual power to the speakers and at a higher quality of sound. What say you?

 

[herbu]

anything beyond a 7.1 just isn't ever going to happen.

A lot of people here, (including me), like Denon. It would be hard to beat this one for $750: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4100wa/denon-avr-x4100w-7.2-atmos-receiver-wi-fi/bluetooth/airplay/1.html

 

[felipe]

"The reason I feel I should upgrade the receiver is that it has started going into protect mode at the SPL I now enjoy and it's annoying."

Hi KenM. I'm thinking it does that b/c of the Ohm load of the speakers...they might have dips into the 4 ohm or less region in thier impedance measurment. At high SPLs, that current demand from the speakers will throw an AVR into protection mode.

 

[KenM10759]

Thanks herbu & felipe. The whole reason for laying out all of the details is because I'd been very close to getting a Denon AVR-X4200W or Marantz SR6010 but the "audio video consultant" (a.k.a. salesman) had suggested that with the speakers I now have I will be surprised at just how much better overall sound quality and power is with the NAD T758. On paper, lower power but he says the Japanese receivers are rating optimistically and the NAD, the extreme in conservatively.

felipe, the KEF R500 would be "on their own" when running 2.1 and are rated by KEF as being 8Ω speakers. How does the impedance change from that?

The AV dealer is affording me a 30 day audition of the NAD T758, but insisted I make these changes (bi-amp & optical) to my current installation and run that for a week or two first. He says once I get the best I can out of the current system, try the NAD and see if he's FOS.

 

[felipe]

Thanks herbu & felipe. The whole reason for laying out all of the details is because I'd been very close to getting a Denon AVR-X4200W or Marantz SR6010 but the "audio video consultant" (a.k.a. salesman) had suggested that with the speakers I now have I will be surprised at just how much better overall sound quality and power is with the NAD T758. On paper, lower power but he says the Japanese receivers are rating optimistically and the NAD, the extreme in conservatively.

felipe, the KEF R500 would be "on their own" when running 2.1 and are rated by KEF as being 8Ω speakers. How does the impedance change from that?

The AV dealer is affording me a 30 day audition of the NAD T758, but insisted I make these changes (bi-amp & optical) to my current installation and run that for a week or two first. He says once I get the best I can out of the current system, try the NAD and see if he's FOS.

From what I've learned, The rated impedance of a loudspeaker is an "average" rating. It can vary anywhere from 4-16 ohms and is dependent on frequency. Hope this helps clarify a little . I believe the salesman recommended the NAD b/c it can handle lower impedance loads better..I think.

 

[KEW]

The reason I feel I should upgrade the receiver is that it has started going into protect mode at the SPL I now enjoy and it's annoying.

What do you think is happening here? Let's rule out some basics before going further:
1) Is the AVR getting really hot?
2) Do you feel like you are running it harder with the new speakers?
3) Does it have plenty of room for ventilation? If it is in a cabinet, move it out of the cabinet for a test to see if it still shuts down.
4) You have the mains set to small in Audyssey, right?
5) Did you double-check all of your speaker wires and connections for damage or shorts? My brother had a speaker wire that (as best he could guess) the cat ran its claw through causing a short once the volume went up so far. He wasted 2 AVR's and a separate amp before he found it! It was not visible, but he happened to run his hand across it when rerunning the cable. My point is be thorough with your inspection crimped/mashed cables or shorts at the terminals are most common, but weird sh!t happens!

 

[KenM10759]

What do you think is happening here? Let's rule out some basics before going further:
1) Is the AVR getting really hot? No. Barely warm to the touch, nothing out of ordinary.
2) Do you feel like you are running it harder with the new speakers? Most definitely yes. They sound AWESOME!
3) Does it have plenty of room for ventilation? If it is in a cabinet, move it out of the cabinet for a test to see if it still shuts down. Not enclosed, but bottom shelf of a 3 level AV stand. About average air around it.
4) You have the mains set to small in Audyssey, right? No. Audyssey mic no longer works so all set manually with SPL meter.
5) Did you double-check all of your speaker wires and connections for damage or shorts? Changed all wires today as part of bi-amping and general neatening up.

My brother had a speaker wire that (as best he could guess) the cat ran its claw through causing a short once the volume went up so far. He wasted 2 AVR's and a separate amp before he found it! It was not visible, but he happened to run his hand across it when rerunning the cable. My point is be thorough with your inspection crimped/mashed cables or shorts at the terminals are most common, but weird sh!t happens!

So today I got the new TV (Samsung UN55JU7100F) and my son and I ripped everything apart for a total "clean install." New 12ga speaker wire with banana plugs. Changed analog output of CD player to TOSLINK optical. Reset Denon AVR1912 to default, went from there. Manually set all over again, rear channels 6&7 reassigned to front mains, everything working better than ever.

In a brief test of known CD in stereo 2.1, it seems clear that bi-amping solves the problem, and the signal sounds marginally clearer as digital into the receiver. That could just be my ears wanting it to sound better after all the work, but I'm happy for now. I'm still going to run it like this for a week or so, then audition the NAD T758 to see if I truly notice better quality sound and appreciate it enough to spend the money. I can get it for 30% off as it's a demo unit and they are extending terms of their annual demo stock clearance sale as they did the R500's.

 

[PENG]

So today I got the new TV (Samsung UN55JU7100F) and my son and I ripped everything apart for a total "clean install." New 12ga speaker wire with banana plugs. Changed analog output of CD player to TOSLINK optical. Reset Denon AVR1912 to default, went from there. Manually set all over again, rear channels 6&7 reassigned to front mains, everything working better than ever.

In a brief test of known CD in stereo 2.1, it seems clear that bi-amping solves the problem, and the signal sounds marginally clearer as digital into the receiver. That could just be my ears wanting it to sound better after all the work, but I'm happy for now. I'm still going to run it like this for a week or so, then audition the NAD T758 to see if I truly notice better quality sound and appreciate it enough to spend the money. I can get it for 30% off as it's a demo unit and they are extending terms of their annual demo stock clearance sale as they did the R500's.

Ken, I can only say what I said before, that the NAD is not going to give you more power than the Denon X4100. I am almost certain that it will give you less. I say this base on bench tests after bench tests by S&V (formerly H&T magazine), HCC, and AVTech that showed NAD did not output more, often less power than Denon and Marantz in the same price range. If your dealer can offer you 30% off it may not be a bad deal though if you prefer a more simplistic design that omits features you probably won't use anyway. D&M AVRs are mass produced, as such their production costs are expectedly much lower than that of NAD's. Your dealer will mostly likely have a much higher profit margin by selling you NAD instead of Denon or Marantz. NAD AVRs are in fact typically heavier, that makes it easier for people to spread the words around about their so called more conservative power output ratings, larger power supply etc., but test data don't lie. You can gain weight by using less efficient heat dissipation system, steel instead of plastic and Aluminum just to name a couple of reasons for weight difference.

 

[KenM10759]

Well, I'm getting a free test without putting any money down. I will first test with it in normal speaker wiring configuration to see if it acts like the Denon (going into protect mode), then if it does I'll switch to bi-amped as I have my Denon 1912 now (yet to be fully tested but showing lower dB on the display even at lower volumes.)

Here's the specs from the manual for the T758 unit, and they're known for being conservative so I'm willing to try it as it costs nothing but a little plug-it-in time and the travel to and from their shop.

Power output Stereo Mode 110W (8 ohms within rated distortion)
IHF dynamic power; 8 ohms 137W
IHF dynamic power; 4 ohms 243W
Power output Surround Mode 7 x 60W
Total harmonic distortion at rated power <0.08%
IM distortion at rated power <0.08%
Damping factor, 8 ohms >60
Input sensitivity and impedance 750mV/50 kilo ohms

That's higher than my current Denon at those numbers. Can you provide links to any of these tests you cite? I haven't been able to find anything.

 

[PENG]

Well, I'm getting a free test without putting any money down. I will first test with it in normal speaker wiring configuration to see if it acts like the Denon (going into protect mode), then if it does I'll switch to bi-amped as I have my Denon 1912 now (yet to be fully tested but showing lower dB on the display even at lower volumes.)

Here's the specs from the manual for the T758 unit, and they're known for being conservative so I'm willing to try it as it costs nothing but a little plug-it-in time and the travel to and from their shop.

Power output Stereo Mode 110W (8 ohms within rated distortion)
IHF dynamic power; 8 ohms 137W
IHF dynamic power; 4 ohms 243W
Power output Surround Mode 7 x 60W
Total harmonic distortion at rated power <0.08%
IM distortion at rated power <0.08%
Damping factor, 8 ohms >60
Input sensitivity and impedance 750mV/50 kilo ohms

That's higher than my current Denon at those numbers. Can you provide links to any of these tests you cite? I haven't been able to find anything.

Below are some data and links to the S&V reviews. The other reviews by HCC and AVtech (both British) are on the older models and are hard to link, but the D&M products tested always beat the corresponding (price wise) NADs.

AVR-4520CI - $1217 (Amazon)

"This graph shows that the AVR-4520CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 172.6 watts and 1% distortion at 190.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 237.5 watts and 1% distortion at 287.1 watts."

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench#6MZKGuvtBk0F4ECT.97

Denon AVR-3312 - $779 (Amazon)

"This graph shows that the AVR-3312CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 122.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 143.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 202.0 watts and 1 percent distortion at 225.5 watts."

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#VsUyjU8SRhfKVdPD.97

NAD T787 - $3,999 (Music Direct)

This graph shows that the T 787’s left channel, from A1 input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 152.7 watts and 1 percent distortion at 184.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 180.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 207.1 watts.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#o63mm0ymRocSuvvH.97

NAD T757 - T758 - $999 (Amazon)

"Output at clipping (1 kHz, 8/4 ohms, both channels driven): 119/178 W"

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/test-report-nad-t757-av-receiver-page-3#d5ewOHQPYk4Ib8dl.97

Denon AVR-S900W - $379 - (Amazon)

"2 Channels Continuously Driven, 8 Ohm Loads 110.8 watts 0.1% THD, 122.0 watts 1% THD, 2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4 Ohm Loads 147.7 watts 0.1% THD, 177.9 watts 1% THD."

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-s900w-av-receiver-test-bench#xJt2kVu1Rsc5RCKL.97

AVR-1913 - 1912 - $379 (Amazon)

"This graph shows that the AVR-1913’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 102.3 watts and 1 percent distortion at 117.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 87.6 watts and 1 percent distortion at 151.1 watts."

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#BZ4TBYbWuIareic7.97

So the $379 Denon AVR-S900W, that is a newer version of the AVR-1913 actually beats the NAD T757 that is the predecessor of the T758. I can't find a review on the T758 with bench test data but you can reasonably expect that it has the same amp section as the T757.

 

[KenM10759]

I appreciate those links, and I'd actually already read that review on the NAD T757 and came away impressed.

My goal isn't strictly the most raw power for dollar spent, and I realize Denon/Marantz could beat many based upon that. I'm looking to have enough power to get me to where my existing unit is without the shutdown at peak. Believe me, when it gets to that level I'm the only one willing to stay in the room so it's not an SPL that I need for extended periods.

The review of the T757 does point to what attracts me to test the T758...sound quality. Apart from raw test data I'm reading more into what impressions the reviewer gives about that subject and THAT is what I'm most interested in. For protection against "overload", I've found I can do with the NAD the exact same thing I've done with my Denon...reassign the two unused channels to bi-amp the L-R mains. That will allow me to get the "NAD sound quality" I expect I'll get without going to their next more powerful unit that's really out of my budget.

I get what you're saying and appreciate it. For me, I really want to see what's the best overall quality of 2.1 sound I can get while maintaining the ability to occasionally use it as 5.1, as I can't have two systems in my space (or budget) and am of the "music first" mindset.

 

[PENG]

The review of the T757 does point to what attracts me to test the T758...sound quality. Apart from raw test data I'm reading more into what impressions the reviewer gives about that subject and THAT is what I'm most interested in.

Okay so you are really talking about subjective impressions of sound quality rather than specs and verifiable power output data. Over the years I learnt to ignore reviewer's subjective description of the sound quality of gear they reviewed. In my opinion, they are affected by hearsay and the sticker prices, such as NAD is for music, and more expensive units must sound better etc., kind of silly but again just imo. Also, the funny thing is, this sort of hearsay tend not to be the same world wide either. If you read some British or other European hifi magazines, they often rated Yamaha, Marantz and Denon higher, sort of the other way round. I have AB'ed my Denon AVR many times with my Marantz separates and Cambridge audio/Parasound/Bryston/Anthem separates and I have hard time telling the difference at moderately loud level. I do feel good owning multiple amps but its really not so much about sound quality.

As long as one has some decent electronics, speakers, source material and room acoustics are what affect sound quality most. No offense, the NAD T758 is probably audibly better than your 1912 but for the money you can do better with the Denon X4200W for sure. The 4200 is not high end but it will get you closer to the point of diminishing return even from sound quality stand point. Reality is, perceived sound quality is highly subjective so there is no right or wrong, other than proof time and again that in blind tests most people could not even tell the sound quality difference between mid range units to very high end units.

You seem to be convinced that NAD=better sound quality so you are well prepared to find that the T758 will indeed sound better than its Denon or Marantz counterpart. We can offer our opinions, and I have, but I doubt you will be happy unless you get your NAD.

 

[KenM10759]

I can be subjective about it by having my younger son come over and set both up for a blind A-B test.

Just curious, but why are you pushing me toward the Denon if you have all those other units? I'm wondering why you own them at all based upon what you've been saying about there being so little difference other than price. Some of those you own aint exactly cheap.

 

[PENG]

I can be subjective about it by having my younger son come over and set both up for a blind A-B test.

Just curious, but why are you pushing me toward the Denon if you have all those other units? I'm wondering why you own them at all based upon what you've been saying about there being so little difference other than price. Some of those you own aint exactly cheap.

I am not pushing you toward the Denon. It is just my opinion that the 4100 represents more value based solely on specs and speculated real world power output performance relative to price. On the SQ side of the equation, as I said it would be highly subjective so I could only comment base on my own experience and yours would likely be totally different.

Assuming you are here looking for thoughts so I offered my honest opinion, no more and no less. In my last post, I was at least implying that you should go for the NAD, not the Denon. If you are going to do some blind AB tests, be sure to volume match. The T758 would in fact sound better though shouldn't be night and day kind of better if you keep the SPL below 85 dB at 2 to 3 meters. It will also depend on the kind of music you use. The NAD will have an edge if the music used has extra wide dynamic peaks. I also owned a 1912, it sound good with my Polk speakers plus sub but it is still just an entry level Denon that weights a little over 20 lbs. As I said before, weight is not the whole story, but any 7 channel AVR that weighs less than 25 lbs is not going to be a power house. Obviously I am curious to know the results so please come back soon to tell us all about it.

By the way, the reasons why I own my amps are complicated. I will PM you the long story.

 

[herbu]

You seem to be convinced that NAD=better sound quality...
I doubt you will be happy unless you get your NAD.

My impression too.

 

[KenM10759]

So today I got an opportunity to fully test the results of switching the Denon AVR1912 to bi-amp for the front mains. In running a known source CD (Peter Gabriel, So) up to and a little over -0dB, it performed beautifully. Not even a hint of going into protection mode as it did before at -7 to -5dB. There did seem to be a little more distortion at the very high volume (wish my son had left his SPL meter here), but given how hard I was pushing that little Denon acquitted itself quite well. The highs were now a bit brighter than I get at "more normal" volumes so there may be a place where I'd notice differences in sound quality between a Denon and the NAD. And I am trying to be open minded about this, truly.

Knowing full well that I could not endure such volumes for extended periods, I know both the NAD T758 and the Denon AVR-X4200W will be plenty of power for 99% of my wants and needs. I comes down to sound quality and features that I need or don't need. One factor not mentioned is one my wife already has trouble with, and that is if I've had the receiver in 2.1 stereo mode she's not happy even pressing the ONE button she has to press on the current Denon remote to get it into 5.1 mode for fear of "screwing it up." I doubt either of the two new receivers would or could be any simpler, I just don't want it any harder if I can avoid it. We'll see.

Thanks all for the feedback, it is appreciated.

 

[KenM10759]

Oh I forgot to mention: Yesterday I stopped in at my local (1/2 a mile away) appliance/TV/bicycle/toy store to look at TV's as I have a 10 year old Toshiba 42L167 Regza that's been paining me to look at. I told the owner I wanted a Samsung or Sony 55" LED, something 1080P would be fine because of my viewing distance. Walked out 10 minutes later with a Samsung UN55JU7100 (a 4K) for $949 + state sales tax. Of course I won't be able to tell much difference between 1080P and 4K at over 12 feet away, but it's a GREAT price on the thing and will be fine to watch if I ever get closer to it.

 

[KenM10759]

Thread revival in progress.

Yesterday I took home an NAD T758 receiver for an at-home demo and today my son came over to help me get it running correctly. There is absolutely positively no doubt in my mind that this unit SPANKS my current Denon AVR-1912 for sound quality and power. Everything I'm hearing sound just so much better than before that it's remarkable.

As with the Denon, I have the front main L-R speakers bi-amped with the unused surround channels. In testing "at volume", this receiver is a little louder, but SO MUCH clearer and richer in sound. The highs are smoother yet brighter, mid range has decidedly more punch and clarity, and for whatever reason even the LF range sent to the subwoofer melds better at roll-off from the R500's. Most telling was that at volumes low enough to carry on a normal conversation, it sounded even more dramatically better!

I'm going to bring it back to the dealer on Tuesday and come back home with an Anthem MX510 to try. If I knew of a dealer willing to let me demo a Marantz SR6010 or Denon AVR-X4200W, I'd try one of those too, but I'm thinking now it's down to the NAD or the Anthem.

In long conversation with the dealer, I made it clear that my 1-2 year upgrade path would be to get a new receiver now. Perhaps in the spring I would test a couple of surround/multi-channel amps using the receiver I get in a week or so for its pre-amp outputs. Next would be a high quality surround pre-amp to match whatever power amp I settle with, the goal being to get the very most from the KEF R series speakers.

Then start all over again until I get to the point that expensive-as-hell cables are the only thing left on which to waste money.