Dali Rubicon for home cinema.

  • Thread starter Roger Skullestad
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Soft fabric curtains may help with the acoustics. A thick rug, and also a soft fabric sectional can also help. The biggest problem is seating against the wall, with a hard surface behind you. That may be a lively spot due to acoustic reflections. Equalization can only do so much. You might look into acoustic room treatments, although I am not an expert in that area.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Right behind the couch is a large window - where I can pull the curtain in front and absorb/reflect much of the sound I imagine - which should help a bit for that. After all you cant really place acoustic dampening on the window in the first place =) - The carpet on the model is there - so that will likely help lots on the hard wood floor.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
I've got to ask - part of the reason the XTZ plays louder and deeper than the rest - is from the fact it has 3 elements - the loudness part makes perfect sense, but why does it go deeper? Is it because each element can play 'easier' and thus not get strained to go deep since they are 3 elements cooperating to make the same sound volume as 1 would otherwise do alone?
And would this mean that even if a Dali K-14 is rated to 29 hz vs SBS13 20 - would two K-14 likely be able to go deeper in coop? and is the 'rule' that two similar elements boost the sound with 3 db?
Just wondering if 2x 14" 500W elements might best a single 12" 1000W one
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I am not exactly sure what you mean by 'three elements', but I am guessing you mean the woofers. I think what you really want to know about is air displacement. As you know, sound is just pressure waves in the air (as perceived by us). In order to produce low frequency pressure waves (bass), a lot of air has to be moved if you want it loud at all. So we have to move a lot of air for good bass. The three woofers of the XTZ can cumulatively move a lot more air than the SVS or Dali subwoofers. The XTZ sub is also ported, so it is is using not only the front of the woofers to push air but the rear side of the woofers as well, so this makes it more efficient (the energy from the internal side of the woofers is specially handled to boost output in the lowest octave of the subwoofer's band). It is a big simplification, but essentially, the more air that is able to be moved, the louder and deeper a subwoofer can play.

As for the Dali sub vs the SVS, while the woofers size is basically the same (the SVS woofer is nearly 14" in diameter), the SVS woofer can be driven in and out much further (excursion) meaning it can move a lot more air. Maybe two Dali subs can match the SVS as far as air displacement, I am not sure though. This is all heavily simplified.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
I've read a lot today on the multiple sub topic - and it seem all places agree that while you can easily adjust and fix irregularity in a single subwoofer by placement and EQ for one seat - it will be hard to make that right for several seats - where as a setup of two subs will even out the frequency response over the area making peaks and voids less problematic over multiple seats.
As I can't really fit (or expense) two XTZ (or expense two SVS) I'm then thinking maybe I need a third option - a good sub that I can afford (and fit) two off.

Now that I 'can't' fit or expense is all relative - but I didn't expect to spend more than 2000 on the subwoofer setup at least.

I think btw that the venting on the XTZ is on the bottom front (as I understood it when I modelled it in 3D) but I guess it does the same job wherever it vents from :) at least the foam plug goes into front bottom to 'close' it up.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I don't think the advantages of multiples subs will come into play for your system, because you have pre-determined spots set aside for your sub. You need to be able to place the spots wherever they iron out the frequency response, and that could be anywhere. Your nulls will likely come from a lateral acoustic reflection from the backwall, and since you are placing your subs at an equal distance from the backwall and listening position, they may come up with the same frequency response at listening position. It would be better to place them in a asymmetric manner.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
I could for instance easily have one sub on the right-hand side of the TV-set while the other one could rest on the left-hand side of the couch - which would likely then mix things up better - however exact placement I guess I can only find when I actually have them in the living room for testing.
I guess I anyway need to figure out if I should make my bet on one large power-sub or two medium subs twinned up. It's much to think into for a first proper system..

What system did you run yourself?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I have four ported 12" subwoofers in my home theater, and two sealed 15"s in my bedroom/PC setup.

I wouldn't overthink it too much. Picking a sub is supposed to be fun! The real choice for you is whether you want monster bass or 'just fine' bass. I think the Dali subs would probably be just fine. I think you will be happy either way.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'll chime in and say I am a proponent of "just fine" bass!
The problem is room gain which becomes an issue as the frequency gets low.
The measurements you have been looking at are all designed to mimic anechoic chamber measurements. This makes sense from the standpoint of being able to have a measurement standard where measurements are comparable in different test labs; however, if you want flat response down to 20Hz in your room, a flat anechoic measurement is not really desirable.
All rooms are different, but you can bet your room and my room will be much closer to each other than either is to an anechoic chamber.

Steve81 is a member of this forum who has gone to pains to try many subs and measure his in-room response in order to get a flat in-room response. He uses a Funk FW18 sub. For the purpose of ending up with a flat in-room response, he selected the EQ option on his sub (it has 6 EQ options) with the following anechoic response curve:

This happens to be in a ~2400 cu. ft. room. Generally, room gain increases as the size of the room gets smaller.

This is a concern I am a little passionate about as I bought dual E112's only to find I could not tame the lower bass to make them musical (using Denon AVR4520ci with Audyssey XT 32) in my over 4500 cu ft room.

While the E112's are sealed, they have built in EQ to increase low frequency output. I dislike the idea of adding bass traps to try and get my room to behave more like an anechoic chamber.

I have found that my dual Rythmik E15HP or my dual PSA XS15se both give a much more musical presentation.

You can read more about this with varying viewpoints starting at around post #33 here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/attachments/fr-jpg.16670/

For HT, I will run my subs about 6dB hot (adjusted at the AVR). Sometimes more if I am looking for a mindless romp!!! These loud low frequencies bring out the brain stem responses (hair up on the back of your neck/adrenaline)!

I don't want to make this more complicated, but here are the points/comments I would like to make:
1) If at all possible, listen to you favorite music with deep bass (ideally acoustic, not electronica - you probably know the balance of an orchestra or bass and piano in a jazz trio) on both sealed and ported systems. Ideally the sealed system would have little EQ applied.
2) Chances are the Dali subs are made for music and have a nice roll off for in-room integration.
3) For Home Theater, more deep bass is just fun! While I find a sealed sub is entirely listenable with the music settings, I am glad I have the extra headroom in my subs to turn them up for HT! I like to feel it in my gut when a rocket launches or a dinosaur stomps!
4) I am not a fan of subs where you plug ports in order to get a sealed sub. This is more conceptual that my own experience, but a true sealed sub will have the driver parameters, cabinet size, and amplifier all designed to act as a sealed sub. Anyone in the DIY forums would tell you that you a driver well suited to a ported sub is not at all what you want in a sealed sub.
5) From your conversation, it seems that visual aspects of your layout are important. Because of this I would highly recommend you get dual subs (whatever you decide on). Chances are there are only a handful of places you are willing to set a sub in your room. Adding a second will make it much more forgiving if none of those places turns out to be ideal!
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
You can read more about this with varying viewpoints starting at around post #33 here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/attachments/fr-jpg.16670/
Thanks a lot for a long post with lots of nice new viewpoints. It's ok to "complicate" it, as I enjoy looking into the various aspects of such a topic and dig a bit deep to both learn more about it and to help making a decision in the end.

The above link seem to be to the graph alone - I'm sure it's just an error with the copy pasting where the right link got switched with the graph link :) feel free to change it with the post you wanted to link me to :)
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
This is a concern I am a little passionate about as I bought dual E112's only to find I could not tame the lower bass to make them musical (using Denon AVR4520ci with Audyssey XT 32) in my over 4500 cu ft room.

While the E112's are sealed, they have built in EQ to increase low frequency output. I dislike the idea of adding bass traps to try and get my room to behave more like an anechoic chamber.
So the problem with for instance E112 were that you could not run them without EQ - or that you could not override that setting? while on the E15HP and XS15se's you could? I just try ti pick up exactly what caused the problem in the E112 which was solved with the other two :)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So the problem with for instance E112 were that you could not run them without EQ - or that you could not override that setting? while on the E15HP and XS15se's you could? I just try ti pick up exactly what caused the problem in the E112 which was solved with the other two :)
The problem with the E112 was that once it is placed in my LR (or BR) the room gain results in the bass being far to loud in the 20-30Hz region. The EQ offered through Auddysey reduced it, but not enough to get a flat curve.

My mistake on the link. Not at computer now, but will fix it in a couple of hours.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Thanks a lot, that is a lot of interesting reading. Sub's is a very interesting topic. It seem also that some have issues with a few subs even when using Audyssey - which makes me go back to my table and add EQ and Room Correction yes/no for the various subs. I understand that the best is to leave the Sub at default (no adjusting phase, eq etc.) and let Audyssey do the magic.. but _if_ for some reason Audyssey are not able to get a good result - then one can first apply EQ to the sub to make the 'base' it has better - then re-run Audyssey which then will have less work to do in correcting the sub. As more chefs means more mess - I would imagine this is only the way to go if Audyssey alone cant cope with it - which hopefully is not too often - but from that post it happens sometimes.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
BTW, I had the same problem with the SVS SB12-plus (no longer in production).
However, it offered an on-board PEQ I used to compensate. The E112 has limited on-board controls:


So, the tact of making sure your sub has some on-board means to compensate for room gain is a good approach.

If you look at the bass extension section in this link, you will see how much attention Brian Ding (Rythmik's designer) gives to varying the frequency response curve:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/eq.html

BTW, his chart is a little confusing, the center line is 0dB. The "5.0dB" is indicating it is 5dB between ticks.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
As an update my living room is about 2200 square feet (I'm used to m³ so had to calculate)
it seems that for me the E15HP and XS15se is out of the picture seeing they have to ship over to Norway - and the cost when I looked it up is quite high - high enough one could easily jump up a notch by getting the equal size for a sub without the shipping to here.

So far I have my eyes on the SB13.. but the Dali's are also up there. I haven't totally discarded the idea of either PB13 or XTZ 3x12 yet - but they seem a bit more far fetched simply from their size and price - they would really overwhelm my living room should I go dual - and one alone might be a disaster if the few places I can actually fit one is not a good spot for the sound :)
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
If you went with the SB13, do you think you can add another later? Dual SB13s would be a killer setup.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I assume you mean cubic feet!
That puts you dead center in the middle of Audioholics Medium Room size. Here is a review that talks about subs that perform well in small and medium rooms (two different subs).
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rbh-sx10r-and-s10/conclusion

And the first link here will download a spreadsheet. The 4th tab over on the bottom will give you a listing of subs reviewed by AH and the room rating for each.
You will note that the SB13-Ultra is rated for a large room. It would certainly perform well in a smaller room.

Do you have a link to the Dali sub you are looking at?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
He is talking about the K-14 F. It doesn't look that bad, a ported 14". But the tuning point looks to be fairly high, above 30 Hz.
 
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Roger Skullestad

Junior Audioholic
Yes, I most certainly meant cubic and not square feet :)
I mailed also SVS - and their respons was that PB has more output down very low, but that with my room size SB13 would be excellent for the low bass as well - and easier to place.

About two woofers - at least space-wise I would be able to do two SB13's - but its quite a high cost in total.

For the K-14 F the tuning point is 34hz - what does it really mean? lower tuning point means it can do deeper in bass before loosing too much effect? (And what's the tuning frequency for say SB13, PB13, XTZ 3x12 etc.? - couldn't find anything on their page)

Also I noticed the SVS has a PC13 - whats the pro and cons of the cylinder?? or are there only cons? (made just for less space-usage?)
 
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