Dali Rubicon for home cinema.

[shadyJ]

The subwoofer-band bass in music is mostly recorded in mono, so you could do stereo subs, but it isn't likely to improve the sound, and furthermore would be a bit complicated to setup while also having the system geared for 5.1 content as well. I would advise against it.

Another thing, you are looking at stated frequency responses with the subs too much. These subs can claim anything they want, but the real performance is in measurements. Even the PB13 does not playback deep bass as well as the 3x12: 3x12 cea measurements vs PB13 cea measurements.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

I read visual graphs better than tables - but my values are not from the websites of the producers - but from readings done in reviews. of course measure methods and room used etc. will vary greatly I expect - but I haven't found a single source that review all of those 3 systems - so I kind of had to pick and compare by what I could
I might look into too many aspects at once, but I like to see all sides of the topic and make up a good opinion about the things =)

 

[shadyJ]

I doubt very much the Dali subwoofers will have any reviews. That doesn't mean they will be bad, although I do not expect them to be great. The SVS and XTZ subs have been reviewed here at audioholics:
SB13 Ultra
PB13 Ultra
XTZ 3x12

The guy who reviews them, Josh Ricci, is easily the best subwoofer reviewer in the business. His charts are all directly comparable, they are not performed in room, but at 2 m in a groundplane setting in a specific range of weather conditions.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

The Dali Subwoofers just arrived in store like last week (I got a sneak preview at a local store that got them in early) so both them and the new Opticon range of tower speakers are hard to find reviews for as they are also brand new. However from listening I've found that the Opticon's can't touch the Rubicon's - which makes sense when comparing the prices.

Yeah, I've watched some of their review-videos and also looked at some charts - but I guess they are located in the US - and Dali's might not end up there too often? It's a long way to travel I'm also surprised XTZ found its way over there

 

[shadyJ]

We have Dali over here in the US, many speakers but I haven't seen their subwoofers over here. I have heard the Epicons on a couple occasions, those were superb speakers - but they better be, for that kind of money. I have heard some other Dali speakers as well, can't remember which models.

By the way, here is a graph to make it easier to compare the SVS and XTZ subs:

You can see the PB13 gets close to the 3x12 at 16 and 20 Hz, but not anywhere else. in upper bass output it gets trounced. The SB13 doesn't get beaten as bad in upper bass - it only gets doubled in output at those frequencies. But it is left far behind in deep bass, essentially quadrupled in output. The 3x12 is a monster. Keep in mind these numbers don't just measure raw loudness, they are capped by a certain amount of distortion, so its relatively clean bass which is being gauged here.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

Hopefully not a silly question to ask - The Dali Rubicon's goes to about 38 Hz before they reach -3 db, so I plan to kick in the Subwoofer at 40 Hz or so - and thus can play it 'louder' while still being right level to match the stereo speakers. (I read this tip at a different subwoofer guide) - that way the output of the deeper bass is cranked up a bit.

The question is: if pb13 at 40hz does 116db - while 3x12 does 121db - can't I when listening to the pb13 crank up its volume as the 40hz volume should be a certain value to match whatever the stereo speakers are playing.. and if the 40hz of the pb13 is leveled with the one of the 3x12 - that would actually make the pb13 curve surpass the one of 3x12 as it declines slower (until that 12,5 mark that is - where pb13 is dead)

 

[shadyJ]

You will want to cross the sub to the speakers at around 80 Hz. Your speakers may be able to play down to 38 hz, but they will not do so nearly as well as a subwoofer. Their response will be down quite a bit before that point, and they would struggle to play down in that bass region with authority. By crossing the speakers over higher, it takes a load off of them and you end up with a cleaner sound overall. Your speakers can not play bass down that low nearly as cleanly as the subs. Your AVR will level match the subwoofers to the speakers, so you do not have to worry about that (as long as you have a somewhat modern AVR, and you do).

As for the respective curves of the subs, your AVR will shape the curve more so than the subwoofer. The room will also impact the curve too. The room will likely boost up the low frequencies a bit. The equalization routine on your AVR will correct any frequency points where the room boosts the bass too much ie summations. Both the PB13 and 3x12 will play very deep, but the 3x12 has the potential for more deep bass, as it more than doubles the deep bass output of the PB13 at 12 Hz. So, yes the PB13 would produce more deep bass at normal listening level, but not if you use Audyssey. Your AVR has a very nice implementation of Audyssey, I suggest you use it.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

In a German test of the speaker it performs down to 33hz before dipping to -3 db from the 'normal' - which I'd say should easily allow for a lower crossover. Bass is actually one of the reasons I opt for Rubicon 8 over B&W CM10 - as it got a good punch - but for the deeper bass it cant compete. I will likely test the value up and down all from 80 to 40 though, as numbers and theory is one thing - while the end hearing result is all that really matters in the end and I'm the kind of person that like to toy around looking for the better solution

ref: https://www.stereo.de/hifi-test/lautsprecher/standboxen/dali-rubicon-8/

 

[Roger Skullestad]

So, the Subs that I currently are looking at is as follows:

• 2x Dali SUB 14k
• 1x SVS SB13 Ultra
• 1x SVS PB13 Ultra
• 1x ZXT Cinema 3x12
• 1x JL Audio E-Sub e112

The JL Audio is a new Sub to my list from today, which looks very promising as well. I'm currently creating 3D models of those to compare them in my room-setup.

How did you find a way to compare those different subs in a chart here at Audioholics?

 

[shadyJ]

If the frequency sweep in the German Dali test was at a low amplitude, yes, it can test -3 dB at 33 Hz, which would not be surprising. That is not likely to be at a very loud level though. When you turn the volume up, the -3 dB point will surely rise. Again, while you can have the speakers play bass, it's much better to let the subwoofer do it. The subwoofer driver is engineered to be dedicated to those low frequencies, whereas the bass drivers in tower speakers such as the Dali's handle a greater range, and consequently suffer more when attempting to play the lowest octaves in the subwoofer band. The subwoofer takes the strain off the speaker bass drivers which reduces distortion from the system overall. The more bass you let the subwoofer handle instead of the mains, the better the mains will perform.

The JL Audio e112 has been reviewed here at audioholics, again, by Josh Ricci. It performs on par with the SB13, perhaps a hair less. As for the graph, I just made quickly made that here.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

Ah - I hoped maybe AudioHolics had made a neat compare tool since they make all those graphs with the same 'measures' for different speakers - so one should be able to pick speakers and data - and then get listed graphs with comparing values

Yeah it seems a hair or so less for the JL - for some reason on the Norwegian Hi-Fi magazine the JL got 5 star rating (max) on sound quality while the SB13 got 4 stars - so they were first and second in a test of 6 or so subs. ref: http://www.lydogbillede.dk/test/hojttalere/6-subwoofere/jl-audio-e-sub-e112/

From Audioholic numbers I get JL playing a tiny bit louder (0,3 db) while SB13 manage to go a little bit deeper in hz. Both is closed and the price difference in Norway seem to be about 20 $ (meaning basically the same price) - the matt version of tthe JL cost 200 $ less - but it would not really fit well with the Rubicons. It's hard for an architect to do compromises on the visuals but certainly I go performance first - and looks second ^_^

 

[Roger Skullestad]

But both from your graph up there, and also from the final ratings (scores) of Audioholics - it seems that if I first go SVS - then PB13 beats SB13 in all aspects? (except its HUGE and heavy) - will it have any cons compared to the SB13? like will it be doing less accurate for music from being larger?

 

[Roger Skullestad]

Here is a front view from my living room couch and a side view from the Dining area.
The model has Rubicon 8's in front, Rubicon 2's in back and a Ikon center - and then the 5 above-mentioned subwoofers placed to see how they all match. Placement is pure guesswork where they fit most in the room itself. Model of TV is 84" LG just for size reference. speaker models have been quickly modified from Ikon series to Rubicon - and thus has some errors to them as I didn't care to remodel them exactly for this

Front view

Side view

 

[shadyJ]

That is very nice modeling, what program did you use for that? How close is that room to the actual room?

If you ask me, that corner is just crying for the 3X12, but I can understand why you are reluctant to consider it. It is huge and very heavy at 77 kg. It probably has way more output than you will ever need, and it would be a hassle to try to resell if you ever had to part with it. Still, it would sound colossal in there. But any of those subs should do very well, and the reason is you are seated against the wall, which gives bass a tremendous boost.

The most sensible thing for you to do depends on how loud you listen. If you are interested in a massive THX Reference level, Imax bigger-than-life sound, get the 3X12. If you don't need that scale of bass but still want plenty of deep bass, get the PB13- but only if it is less expensive than the 3x12, or more appealing visually, because the PB13 is still a bruiser at 70 kg, so it is not that much easier to deal with physically. That is not significantly lighter than the 3X12, but it does have significantly less performance. If you don't need big deep bass at all, get the SB13. If you only listen to the system at modest to medium levels, get the Dali subs. I wouldn't bother with the E112 when you can get the SB13 for the same price.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

The only speaker that really don't 'fit' is the PB13, as its depth makes it really 'point' out of the rest of the setup. I wish to buy a setup from the start that I can bring into a dedicated Home Cinema room later - where I can bring the couch a few meters away from the back wall and get more 'depth' in the surround. So the sub should be able to do this too. But I'm always a bit worried that a sub that packs crazy deep bass might not be up for quick and snappy bass-lines in music - so it needs to be able to do both well.
Since I imagine watching a few movies per week with the home cinema, but listen to music all day - it would be sad to only have a cinema "monster" - but maybe most high quality subs is not as 'brute only' as I imagine they might be.

The room in my model is accurate down to mm, laser measured and drawn up in Sketchup. The visualization of the model is then done in Lumion.

When it comes to the 3x12 it is huge - but it also has a quite small footprint - so the only visual minus is that it's only on one side - and that it does not come in gloss as the other speakers - but that does not make me count it out if its performance can make up for it both in music and movies =)

I agree with you on the JL Audio - when placing it into my Tables it is an allrounder that does all well, but nothing exceptional (except for the highest W per " driver) which I imagine alone means pretty much nothing.

SB13 goes as loud as the e112 but SB13 goes deeper. PB13 (which is too deep for my liking) (eh, talking physical space now, not bass seem to pack more punch than the SB13 and where Audioholics gives 4 points on all the audio specs for SB13 it scores 5 on them on PB13 - so its sad it's not the same footprint - but then again it likely would not be 5 points . XTZ does indeed pack the most punch - but actually does not go as deep as the SVS subs - and is even beaten by a hair by the JL (this is measuring the -3db from Audioholics graphs) Although I'm not sure how much 1hz really matters in the graph.. my values for the 4 speakers is only between 18 and 22... very small range..

 

[shadyJ]

If you intend to the subs to go into a dedicated theater later, then I would really do the 3x12. It does go deeper than all of these other subs, much deeper. You are looking at a natural low-end rolloff in those charts, and that isn't a good way to determine how these subs will sound. The natural roll-off would be relevant only if you were going to use these subs outdoors and without any equalization. Your AVR has Audussey MultiEQ XT32 with SubEQ. This will flatten out the output of all of these subs at which point only headroom matters. The 3X12 has more headroom than any of these subs, therefore it will be able to hold a flatter, deeper response at louder levels. As far as sound quality goes, all of these subs should be very good, with the possible exception of the Dali subs which I don't know about. If you want bass with fast decay times, that will be a matter of setup, as the XTZ, SVS, and JL Audio subs will all be capable of that. As long as you set Audyssey up correctly, the bass should be very good. Read up on some of the guides on how to best setup Audyssey.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/how-to
Ah, so basicly what I'll do is use the mic to let the AVR set the right settings - and then also make sure its the AVR that does all subwoofer tweaks - thus setting frequency crossover, rather than doing that right on the sub. - that's useful tips - I had not really read about the way this worked yet.

Yeah sadly the Dali subs don't have any reviews or benchmarks yet, so I can't really compare them. I just know they sounded really good with two at the Hi-Fi shop - but compared to my 2.1 Computer setup I'm sure all of those would... It's sad there isn't places to go to listen to and compare all those systems first hand... For computer mice/keyboards for gaming that is quite common (but space need and price for such equipment is of course in a different league..)

And when I say theatre I dont mean to make rows of seats, audio padding and all such - but a dedicated media room more fit for good audio then my current living room I've seen some others theatre's posted in here - and many of those are way over what I plan to make

 

[Roger Skullestad]

One minus with the 3x12 would be that most of the others can be moved around the room a bit and placed where they sound best - while the 3x12 fits well in the corner - but not really anywhere else =)

 

[shadyJ]

http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/how-to
Ah, so basicly what I'll do is use the mic to let the AVR set the right settings - and then also make sure its the AVR that does all subwoofer tweaks - thus setting frequency crossover, rather than doing that right on the sub. - that's useful tips - I had not really read about the way this worked yet.

That guide is a good start, but here are some others:
Audyssey FAQ and setup guide
AVSforum "Official" Audyssey thread
Audyssey setup guides

Those dig deeper into audyssey and may net you a better result. You may want to check your results with a calibration mic and equipment. If you want something even better, XTZ sells Dirac software and also their Room Analyzer Pro from their website (their USA website, I dunno about their european website). These can tweak your sound beyind what Audyssey does, in fact, those who have tried Dirac and Audyssey prefer Dirac. But you already have the best version of Audyssey, try that and see how you like it.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

Ah, I haven't gotten the stuff yet - I'm currently making the shopping list wanting to nail down all parts before I get them - but I don't expect any changes except in the sub apartment.
I will look into the SVS and XTZ and see how things are with chances to try them out. The Dali is sold through the local Hi-Fi shop - and thus I can easily borrow the two 14" they have in their showroom during a weekend and test them with my own setup - if I were able to test also a SVS or the XTZ or even both - then I'd easily during a weekend be able to make the best pick the same way I did with the front speakers - but not sure if its easy yet. I imagine XTZ could be possible since they are made in Sweden - which is just next to here, while SVS might be a bit more tricky

Thanks for the tip also on Dirac - I will look more into that if I should not be all happy with what Audyssey does - I know the shape of my room is not at all optimal for Audio - but I hope it will be fine with the tweaks =)

And for exciting news I heard a bird tell me that the Rubicon series should be getting a dedicated center in a not too distant future - which means the other 'issue' with my setup will be solved

Here is the full room btw - the right side is the living room while it continues on over to the left side which is the dining area (just not furnished on the 3D-model yet). I imagine the main dificulties for Audio in this room is the fact that the right side is a wall and on the right is a 'void' for the sound to go into - as well as the back wall being so close to the couch. I believe the curtains that can cover the windows will actually work wonders for acoustics? There are also blinds behind them that will be rolled down to block sunlight.