Dali Rubicon for home cinema.

[Roger Skullestad]

I'm looking into getting a 5.2 sound system for a home cinema. It will be in the living room as I've got no dedicated room at this time - but I want it to be good so I can easily adopt it into a dedicated room later.

I've been looking at (and listening to) some speakers - and started of by finding a stereo front-set that I like. I compared Dali Rubicon 8, Dali Opticon 8 and Bowers & Wilkins CM10 - and found Rubicon 8 to be my 'match'. Thus I look to make a system around these. I've been thinking to go with the following components:

• Front Speakers: Dali Rubicon 8
• Surround/ Speakers: Dali Rubicon 2
  
• Center Speaker: Dali Rubicon LCR (I'm not really happy with the format of this speaker and hope they will make a dedicated Vokal/Center version soon)
• Subs: 2x Dali Sub K-14

I am looking to maybe pair those speakers with Denon AVR-X5200W and a NAD C375, where the NAD would be running the two front Rubicon 8.

Is this even a logic system? does it have any flaws or room for improvements?
I'm no expert to speaker setups, but I know good sound when I hear it - so all thoughts, tips and ideas are welcome.

 

[shadyJ]

That should be a nice system. The Dali subs are probably a bit expensive for what you get though, but they will match the speakers aesthetically. If you are in Europe, you might consider the SVS SB13 Ultra subs, they probably offer a bit more bang for the buck, or if you want a really big cinema sound, look into a XTZ 3x12 subwoofer, which is a tremendous sub for the cost.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

I'm in Europe (Norway).
The Dali subs too expensive? they are cheaper than the SVS SB13's.
I was considering what would be better (if Dali) of 2x K-14 or 1x P-10. The Dali P-10 DSS has 3x10"? elements, but I haven't heard it in action - how should it compare to 2x K-14?
I try to make the parts sound the same, but I guess for Sub its not really much the same with 'sound' as for the other speakers.

As for the SB13 Ultra - I see it comes in two versions (one is DSP) - as I understand it lets you customize the Sub? Is this worth the extra cash-out?

Also, I will be using the system both for listening to Music (all genres - and all volumes) and to watching movies - so it should be an allrounder that can play deep and loud, as well as tight and pretty

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Haven't heard those listed Dali speakers so can't say much about them. For subs BK XXLS400 in european market is amazing for the price they are at, they sell for so cheap compared to others as they are sold directly from manufacturer. I have one and it is amazing sub, wish I was allowed to buy another one myself.

 

[shadyJ]

I'm in Europe (Norway).
The Dali subs too expensive? they are cheaper than the SVS SB13's.
I was considering what would be better (if Dali) of 2x K-14 or 1x P-10. The Dali P-10 DSS has 3x10"? elements, but I haven't heard it in action - how should it compare to 2x K-14?
I try to make the parts sound the same, but I guess for Sub its not really much the same with 'sound' as for the other speakers.

As for the SB13 Ultra - I see it comes in two versions (one is DSP) - as I understand it lets you customize the Sub? Is this worth the extra cash-out?

Also, I will be using the system both for listening to Music (all genres - and all volumes) and to watching movies - so it should be an allrounder that can play deep and loud, as well as tight and pretty

As far as I know, the SB13 Ultra only has one version, maybe you are referring to the PB13 Ultra? As for the Dali subs, I would go with two P-14s over one p-10. And what I mean by expensive is that you may be able to get a lot more performance elsewhere for the money. The subs do not have to match the speakers, don't worry about that. The european subwoofer I am most impressed with is the XTZ 3x12

 

[Roger Skullestad]

[links removed]
it seem they even look different?
I tried to find some review of those XTZ 3x12's but cant find - not even on youtube. I do find good review for the XTC Cinema set in general though, but not with the sub.
Please direct me if you should know about one (preferably English - but I'll do browser-translation if needed)
Dali and XTZ should both be at good prices in Norway as they both come from neighbour countries
edit: I can't post links to the two versions on the Norwegian site yet as I have too few posts - but I'll do so later maybe

 

[shadyJ]

Here is a review of the 3x12. Really tremendous performance, for exceeding even the SVS PB13 Ultra, and matching the $5.5k RBH SX1212S/P.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

It seems like a kick*rear* sub for the cinema indeed. I'll try to find something written about it more oriented to music also - even if the Rubicon 8 also deals a good punch for music without a sub attached
Thanks a lot for many good tips on the Sub =)

 

[tyhjaarpa]

It seems like a kick*rear* sub for the cinema indeed. I'll try to find something written about it more oriented to music also - even if the Rubicon 8 also deals a good punch for music without a sub attached
Thanks a lot for many good tips on the Sub =)

If you are worried about music with sub, I can say that XXLS400 does music really well, I have the downfiring version and I love it. I was about to get SB13-ultra, but they rised the price for another 200€ and I had another thought about it and some one suggested XXLS400 and I don't have any regrets. It also has nice kick for movies, more than enough for my needs at least. SB13-ultra was my first choice before they rised the price but now I'm happy that I saved the price difference. If you want more kick there is also Monolith+ from BK.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

As far as I know, the SB13 Ultra only has one version, maybe you are referring to the PB13 Ultra? As for the Dali subs, I would go with two P-14s over one p-10. And what I mean by expensive is that you may be able to get a lot more performance elsewhere for the money. The subs do not have to match the speakers, don't worry about that. The european subwoofer I am most impressed with is the XTZ 3x12

My apologies, it's SB13 vs PB13... as I understand the PB version has open ports allowing it to go even deeper? is this on cost of attack speed or accuracy?? which would be better for someone who listens to lots of music. I wish to get a sub good enough to excel wonderfullt both at deep punchy movie-bass as well as delicate precise Hi-Fi 2.1 music listening

 

[shadyJ]

My apologies, it's SB13 vs PB13... as I understand the PB version has open ports allowing it to go even deeper? is this on cost of attack speed or accuracy?? which would be better for someone who listens to lots of music. I wish to get a sub good enough to excel wonderfullt both at deep punchy movie-bass as well as delicate precise Hi-Fi 2.1 music listening

I don't think you would notice much of a quality difference between the PB13 and SB13 outside of the more powerful deep bass of the PB13. That is just a guess on my part though.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

My apologies, it's SB13 vs PB13... as I understand the PB version has open ports allowing it to go even deeper? is this on cost of attack speed or accuracy?? which would be better for someone who listens to lots of music. I wish to get a sub good enough to excel wonderfullt both at deep punchy movie-bass as well as delicate precise Hi-Fi 2.1 music listening

Generally closed design is more accurate and controlled, but can you tell the difference is different story.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

It seems however that you can use different modes on the more expensive PB version - where one of them is also 'closed'. Then I would likely be able to have the same music performance on the PB version when in closed mode - and then open it for deeper movie bass? I also understand it as the XTZ 3x12 SUB also has open and closed setting.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

It seems however that you can use different modes on the more expensive PB version - where one of them is also 'closed'. Then I would likely be able to have the same music performance on the PB version when in closed mode - and then open it for deeper movie bass? I also understand it as the XTZ 3x12 SUB also has open and closed setting.

One thing is that every time you want to change "mode" you need to either install or uninstall foam bungs. So I would just pick one design and go with it.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

I see that price wise a single SVS SP13 Ultra cost exactly the same as 2x Dali SUB 14K. The Dali would be 2x14" with 500W each (1000W total) - while the SVS would be a single 13,5" with 1000W on it. Can a single 13" really beat 2x 14"?
I understand cone-size is not everything - and likely there is a reason the one cone runs at the same W as 2x Dalis as well as the price matching..

But how about even Bass in multiple seating in the room? how about phase? easier to manage on one SUB or with two? and does the SVS really pack as much punch alone as 2x dali?

I guess my questions are hard to really answer - but I'd love to know

As for the mentioned BK-XXLS-400 it seem a bit less than the SVS - even if its cheaper. A bit hard to find good numbers and reviews on it comparing it - and not available in Norway shops at all - and get a 75 or so euro charge for shipping x_x

 

[shadyJ]

The Sb13 Ultra has a very long throw driver, but it is hard to imagine it beating two decent 14"s, unless Dali has completely cheaped out on the driver. Two subs can get you a smoother frequency response over a wider area. I would go with the Dali subs. Two Dalis will likely be more efficient than a single high excursion 13.5 anyway, as in less energy used to create more output.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

The one 'concern' I have about the Dali's is that they are rated to do 29-160 hz @ -3 db, while I get that to 17-200 hz @ -3 db for the SVS - which should mean there is a good deep range from 29 to 17 db that will go missing. How does this work when two speakers are paired? will they together produce enough omph to be "rated" lower than the 29-160?

 

[shadyJ]

That spec for the SB13 is nonsense. That might be the spec for the PB13 Ultra, but it does not reflect the performance of the SB13 Ultra. Here is the response of the SB13 Ultra:

That looks more like -3 dB at 29 hz.

About the Dalis, it is hard to tell. They may have a peakish response. There are no measurements for them. At least with the SVS you know what you are going to get. If you went with the Dalis, I think you could get some OK deep bass with some equalization. I should add that the XTZ 3x12 completely blows both the Dalis and SVS away, it is on a very different level of performance. It has about four times the deep bass output of the SB13 Ultra.

 

[Roger Skullestad]

Ah, yes for the SB13 Ultra I have listed 23-340 for -3 db (where from this graph I can read more like 29-240 as you said. But the one I mentioned two posts up was it's brother the SP13 Ultra which is not closed and thus goes deeper.
I read a bit about the 3x12 and it looks beast - but it also breaks most aesthetics found in the rest of the system and 'crash' a bit with the Piano Black Rubicon's (3x12 is Matt Studio Black).
It towers actually just about as tall as the Rubicon 8 (3 cm above it) so they fit in that sense.
But yes for the XTZ I have a rating of 21-160 which is good (vented). - 21 is a good bit lower than Dali's 29 - but not down to SP13's 17 (which might also be a bit low for other charts). But 3x 12" with 500W each - of course it rumbles more than a single 13,5" at 1000W =)

 

[Roger Skullestad]

I'm also trying to read into weather or not I can send stereo signal to the two subs from for instance Denon AVR 5200. I know < 80 hz cant be oriented by the ear - but still with music all tones are recorded stereo - and when it comes down to phase of the sound - even at deep bass levels, it would play a role in how the bass sounds even if you cant tell from where it sounds. For movie watching that makes no sense of course - since its a dedicated mono track it's played from. =)