Receiver upgrade help

[Ty Wayne]

Hello audioholics! Back at the first of the year I came here for help on upgrading my HT system and received wonderful help. Have been enjoying my Ascend's daily since!!

Having said that, Im looking to upgrade my receiver soon and need some suggestions. My Pioneer vsx 522 k is still getting the job done, but I want an upgrade, and I'd like a little more wattage as well maybe??? There are times when I like to listen at high levels and my current avr wont do the job. Im not overly familiar with clipping, but I believe thats what happens so I've had to avoid trying to push the ascends too hard. This I dont like.

So to be honest, I'd really like to stay at 600 bucks or below. That might not be much of an upgrade but its gotta get me something a little better right?

I've spent a lot of time looking at yamaha's, denon's, marantz's, onkyo's pioneer's, etc. But I dont know what I want because I dont know what I need (other than more power). I know I want something reliable.

One area Im confused about a bit is that I've seen suggestions from here and other forums and reivew sites but sometimes those user reviews arent so good when I look at Amazon. I mean, if Im spending 600 bucks I want a product that has a better average than 3 stars. I want something thats going to last a while. When checking out what are supposed to be pretty good avr's, a lot of people report that their avr's are either dead on arrival or dying no more than a year out. Thats crazy!

So, around 600 bucks or less, wifi would be cool but its not a must, more power than my pioneer vsx 522 k, at least 4 or 5 HDMI's, only need one subwoofer pre-out, 4k stuff doesnt matter to me.

Thanks in advance!

 

[markw]

A "little more wattage" won't make an audible difference in your system.

To get a barely noticeable (3 decibels) increase in apparent loudness on peak demands requires twice the power.

To get an apparent twice the loudness, (10 decibels) you need ten times the power.

Here's a link for ya: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html

 

[Ty Wayne]

Mark, I remember back at the first of this year you guys explaining this topic about db's. But unless Im just utterly confused (and Im not saying Im not), this isnt my problem. You see, I dont want to get "twice the loudness" that Im already able to achieve. I can almost get the speakers as loud as I want when I feel like listening loud, but I cant quite get there. When I try to go up just a little more to where I want to be, I get distortion.

One thing I've yet to grasp very well at all is the watts of an AVR. Take my AVR for instance, and by all means correct me if Im wrong because Im not at all arguing with you, Im only trying to understand. Its a 400 watt amplifier if Im not mistaken. Seeing that it has 5 channels, this comes out to 80 watts per channel, correct??? Where I get confused is what if Im listening in two channel stereo mode, am I still only getting 80 watts per channel, or does the 400 watts get redivided by two??? I assume thats not how it works and Im still only getting 80 watts per channel but I dont know.

Okay, the minimum recommended power on my cmt 340's is 35 watts and the maximum continuous power is 240 watts. So, lets say I got this AVR just as an example:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JC31SGG/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3VNQQOP04QKRO&coliid=I35GLVLCGJHEGQ

I'd be getting 150 watts per channel correct? If so, I've nearly doubled the power (again, I dont feel like I need ten times the power to double the loudness, I just need a little louder) from my pioneer AVR havent I? 80 watts per channel versus 150 watts per channel right? Would this not let me get to where I sometimes want to go with my speakers without the clipping?

 

[Ty Wayne]

And if your answer is no, the extra watts in that Sony AVR wont get me much difference, then what is the answer? This is what baffles me. Am I simply trying to play louder than Im ever going to be able to? And what is the reasoning to pay so much for a higher end AVR like a Denon or Marantz or whatever? Is the sound quality going to be THAT much better? And would I still experience the clipping when trying to achieve the loudness level that I want sometimes? I just dont understand why people pay 1,000 dollars (or more) for an AVR when you can get close to the same power in a 250 dollar AVR like mine??? If the main key is always the quality of the speakers, then whats up with these one, two, and three thousand dollar receivers? I dont get it man?

 

[markw]

Many times when one plays "louder", it's to get more detail, which is generally a function of your speakers.

Let's clear up a few misconceptions.

1) Just because your speakers can handle 240 watts, that doesn't mean that you need to feed them all those watts. If your car tires are rated for 189 mph, does that mean you need to drive at that speed to get the most out of them?

2) As for the power rating in that Sony receiver (and many others as well), that 150 watts is misleading. That means that any one channel, driven individually, is capable of putting out that 150 watts. ..and that, in this case, assumes you're listening to a steady 1 khz tone. When you deal with a full-range music signal, which contains many different frequencies at the same time, that figure drops significantly. When you factor in that you're driving more than one channel simultaneously, which puts a draw on the amp's power supply, that power figure drops again. Let's not even get too involved with that distortion figure.

3) A good reason that some people pay more for a receiver is because it may offer certain features that they need or want, such as multi-zone capability, wi-fi, room correction, HDMI 2.2, preamp outs, and many, many more. Please note that as you go up the line of a manufacturer, the power doesn't increase as much as the feature count.

FWIW, If you look at that blue link at the bottom of the page, it will show you my systems. Please note that my 13 year-old Denon HT receiver is rated for 80 wpc and plays my Athena speakers louder than I can stand, and cleanly, too.

Looking at your system (and it's quite good), more watts would not hurt, and might even help somewhat, but don't expect an epiphany in terms of sound quality. Just make sure you get one with preamp outputs, in case you want even more power.

If you do choose to upgrade and don't mind good, guaranteed refurbs, this is a goreat place to make your purchase. Many of us are satisfied customers.

http://www.accessories4less.com/

 

[Ty Wayne]

Thank you very much Mark! That was the kind of answer I was looking for and why I wanted to come here first for my questions about upgrading my avr. As for "preamp outputs", I'll need to do some research on how that works exactly. If you have time to digress or give some more of your good links on that subject it would be much appreciated! Again, thank you for your time and expertise. Im very happy with my system btw, I just want to upgrade in the right area's. However, what those area's are still elude me somewhat. But again, thank you Mark!

 

[markw]

Preamp outs, or outputs, are jacks on the back of your receiver that allow you to use a separate, generally more powerful, power amp in lieu of the power amps in the receiver. It's good insurance that if you want/need more power, you can use your existing receiver as a tuner/preamp/processor and simply buy a more powerful amplifier stage.

 

[herbu]

Ty, your interest in power is quite normal and predictable. You could literally spend months just reading all the pros/cons and debates on the web about power. However, there is one truth that stands out. If you are an audiophile, at some point YOU WILL get an amp. Period. End of discussion. You may or may not keep it, but you will get one.

With this in mind, an AVR's ability to connect to an amp comes into play. You cannot connect your speaker outputs to an amp. The speaker outputs have already been amplified and have a lot of power to drive the speaker. It is waaaay too much to feed into an amp, and will likely blow the amp or at least activate its protection circuitry.

To connect to a separate amp, you need a signal that has not already been amplified. You can call this signal pre-amp or pre-out. Both simply mean it's a signal taken before amplification, and this is the appropriate level to feed into an amp.

All AVRs don't have pre-outs. If you have one of these when you decide to try a separate amp, you'll also have to buy a new AVR. So if you're considering a new AVR, and you're already starting to think about a separate amp, I strongly suggest you get an AVR with pre-outs. And remember, you can run some channels thru a separate amp, and let your AVR provide power to the other channels.

Mark has already told you how little difference a fairly large amount of additional power will make. And today's AVRs have way less distortion than you can hear, so "cleaner" sound from a separate amp cannot be assumed. Nonetheless, one day you will get your amp and decide how much difference you can hear.

As I said in another thread:
Can I tell a difference w/ the separate amp? Maybe.
Would I get it again? Yes.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Ahh ha! Thanks guys. Im definitely going to begin exploring this area more concerning amp's and pre-outs. I never knew you could do such a thing or I guess I'd never really even thought about it. Once I've done some homework on this subject I'll surely be back looking for more info/suggestions from you guys. Thanks again very much!

Also, would one or both of you give me a link or two in order to show me what kind of amp I should be looking for.

 

[markw]

Don't you mean receivers with preamp outs?

In any case, explore that link I supplied earlier, particularly the part where home theater receivers are listed. You'll find pages and pages of them.

Now, when y0u click on the picture of the receiver, another page will be displayed. As you scroll down that page, you'll find a tab labeled "Specifications". click on that and you'll get a mind numbing list of goodies they offer.

Reading through that list, you'll finer something like "audio outputs" or "preamp outputs, with the number of channels it has them for. You're looking for either 7.x or 5.x, depending on what you want but, IMNSHO, I doubt you'll find too many 5.x receivers with this feature. You'll have to go up the model line to find this feature, and probably many more you don't care about. Ain't no "delete option" here like they used to have on cars back in the day.

I didn't look at them all but two receivers that have this would be the Denon 3313 or Marantz SR 7005. These should provide somewhat a guide of what to look for.

Neither of thse will offer enough of a power increase to make a significant difference but it will allow you to add power amps in the future.

Once you get the receiver issue worked out, we'll start talking about separate power amps.

 

[herbu]

And remember, you don't have to run every channel thru the separate amp. In fact, I think most people do not.

For just stereo music, you can run L/R preouts thru a 2-channel amp, and use the AVR speaker outputs, (amplified w/ the AVR amps), for all other channels.

For stereo music and HT including Movies/TV, you can run L/C/R preouts thru a 3-channel amp, and use the AVR speaker outputs for all surround channels. (When you select Stereo on your AVR for music, only the L/R will be used, just like the first example.) Since most sound in Movies/TV come from the L/C/R, this is not a bad option.

Going a bit further, you can run L/C/R/Left Surround/Right Surround thru a 5-channel amp, and use the AVR for Rear Surrounds. Also a reasonable setup. (This is what I have for a 7.2 system.)

You can use a separate 1-channel amp for each channel. You can mix and match as crazily as you want.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For $499, I would get a brand new Denon X3100. It also has Pre-out if you ever want to add external Amps in the future.

 

[English210]

I would agree with the recommendations to upgrade to something that allows further upgrades easier, that is, something with pre-amp outputs. (Almost) any separate 2 channel amplifier will give you more horsepower for your speakers, and make them sound better. Rome wasn't built in a day, and few of us can spend what we'd like to get all we want up front, so it's important to try to keep your options open.
Do you have a friend close by with separates that might loan you a separate amp to try in your system when you get a new receiver with pre-amp outputs?

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I can almost get the speakers as loud as I want when I feel like listening loud, but I cant quite get there. When I try to go up just a little more to where I want to be, I get distortion.

...?

I think another possibility is that the speakers are reaching their linearity limits and distorting. Without proper measuring, not easy, one just doesn't know.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Don't you mean receivers with preamp outs?

In any case, explore that link I supplied earlier, particularly the part where home theater receivers are listed. You'll find pages and pages of them.

Now, when y0u click on the picture of the receiver, another page will be displayed. As you scroll down that page, you'll find a tab labeled "Specifications". click on that and you'll get a mind numbing list of goodies they offer.

Reading through that list, you'll finer something like "audio outputs" or "preamp outputs, with the number of channels it has them for. You're looking for either 7.x or 5.x, depending on what you want but, IMNSHO, I doubt you'll find too many 5.x receivers with this feature. You'll have to go up the model line to find this feature, and probably many more you don't care about. Ain't no "delete option" here like they used to have on cars back in the day.

I didn't look at them all but two receivers that have this would be the Denon 3313 or Marantz SR 7005. These should provide somewhat a guide of what to look for.

Neither of thse will offer enough of a power increase to make a significant difference but it will allow you to add power amps in the future.

Once you get the receiver issue worked out, we'll start talking about separate power amps.

Thanks Mark. And btw, I came across that SR 7005 the day you gave me the link to accessories4less. The Denon's cool too. Thanks for that site man, looks like a feller can save quite a bit of money there! Why are they so much cheaper? Are they all refurb's?

And remember, you don't have to run every channel thru the separate amp. In fact, I think most people do not.

For just stereo music, you can run L/R preouts thru a 2-channel amp, and use the AVR speaker outputs, (amplified w/ the AVR amps), for all other channels.

For stereo music and HT including Movies/TV, you can run L/C/R preouts thru a 3-channel amp, and use the AVR speaker outputs for all surround channels. (When you select Stereo on your AVR for music, only the L/R will be used, just like the first example.) Since most sound in Movies/TV come from the L/C/R, this is not a bad option.

Going a bit further, you can run L/C/R/Left Surround/Right Surround thru a 5-channel amp, and use the AVR for Rear Surrounds. Also a reasonable setup. (This is what I have for a 7.2 system.)

You can use a separate 1-channel amp for each channel. You can mix and match as crazily as you want.

Yeah, I've found a few articles and this is something I'm learning now. I wasn't sure how that worked. Im sure to have a crapload of questions when I do look to buy an amp. AVR will be first though.

I would agree with the recommendations to upgrade to something that allows further upgrades easier, that is, something with pre-amp outputs. (Almost) any separate 2 channel amplifier will give you more horsepower for your speakers, and make them sound better. Rome wasn't built in a day, and few of us can spend what we'd like to get all we want up front, so it's important to try to keep your options open.
Do you have a friend close by with separates that might loan you a separate amp to try in your system when you get a new receiver with pre-amp outputs?

Unfortunately, I do not have any personal audiophile friends. You guys are it, and that's okay because you guys are the bomb diggity bomb!

I think another possibility is that the speakers are reaching their linearity limits and distorting. Without proper measuring, not easy, one just doesn't know.

This surprises me. Im not saying you are wrong, it just surprises me. I figured the ascends would go further than that?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

This surprises me. Im not saying you are wrong, it just surprises me. I figured the ascends would go further than that?

It may but cannot dismiss it out of hand. Have you used an SPL meter to see the sound levels where this is happening?

 

[Ty Wayne]

It may but cannot dismiss it out of hand. Have you used an SPL meter to see the sound levels where this is happening?

No, I've never gotten an SPL meter mainly because #1) Im not sure how to use it properly and #2) I didn't know what the benefit of using one was? In my time on the forums I've seen quite a bit of discussion about using a meter but Im not familiar enough to know what the point of using one is. Perhaps I should look into getting one. Something I have failed to disclose in this discussion is that Im almost maxing out the volume on my AVR when the distortion occurs, so I assumed from the start that the problem was just that I was trying to push the AVR too hard rather than trying to push the speakers too hard?

So for instance, after I run MCACC on my AVR, lets say it sets the max volume on the AVR to 80. As a side note, I don't understand why this number changes in different instances when I've run MCACC, but it does. At times it has set the max volume in the low 70's and at other times it has set it at 80 (or above...I cant remember). Nevertheless, lets say in this instance it has set it at 80. If I turn it up to say 70 or above, I begin getting distortion.

I know, I know, you guys will probably scold me for pushing my avr up so high, but it is what it is and I don't do that anymore. In fact, since I've changed my game room around over the past couple of weeks and moved my tv and speakers to different walls of my room, I've noticed the acoustics in my room are different from before and things sound differently and I've not turned the avr up past 65 with my new configuration. In fact, I usually don't try to go past 60. Not sure if any of this information will help you guys diagnose my problem but it couldn't hurt right?

 

[mtrycrafts]

No, I've never gotten an SPL meter mainly because #1) Im not sure how to use it properly and #2) I didn't know what the benefit of using one was? In my time on the forums I've seen quite a bit of discussion about using a meter but Im not familiar enough to know what the point of using one is. Perhaps I should look into getting one. Something I have failed to disclose in this discussion is that Im almost maxing out the volume on my AVR when the distortion occurs, so I assumed from the start that the problem was just that I was trying to push the AVR too hard rather than trying to push the speakers too hard?

So for instance, after I run MCACC on my AVR, lets say it sets the max volume on the AVR to 80. As a side note, I don't understand why this number changes in different instances when I've run MCACC, but it does. At times it has set the max volume in the low 70's and at other times it has set it at 80 (or above...I cant remember). Nevertheless, lets say in this instance it has set it at 80. If I turn it up to say 70 or above, I begin getting distortion.

I know, I know, you guys will probably scold me for pushing my avr up so high, but it is what it is and I don't do that anymore. In fact, since I've changed my game room around over the past couple of weeks and moved my tv and speakers to different walls of my room, I've noticed the acoustics in my room are different from before and things sound differently and I've not turned the avr up past 65 with my new configuration. In fact, I usually don't try to go past 60. Not sure if any of this information will help you guys diagnose my problem but it couldn't hurt right?

Well, from your description of those numbers it could be either amp or speaker just cannot take such continuous high power. Speaker power rating that is published is not very useful. And, certainly a tweeter cannot take 35 watts of power unless is rated as such by itself. Mostly they are under 10, if that.

Don't know about the auto setting why the different cal numbers.

And, changing room layout IS the biggest change to sound as you testified to this above. Maybe you are good to go as is.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Thanks mtrycrafts!

You know, I think I am probably good to go as is. If Im being honest with myself, I'd never want to listen at the loud level I was trying to attain for any considerable length of time. I can get pretty stinking loud and still be clean as is. That's a fact. And that's why I said back towards the beginning of this discussion that I am happy with my system. I am! It sounds freaking great.

But I find myself wanting to tweak it here and there....want to do something to experiment and possibly improve it if I can. I just lack the knowledge right now to know how to experiment and make it better or upgraded.

Question:
On the topic of getting an AVR with pre-amp outputs, below is a pic of my current vsx-522k. What are the "Surr Back/Front Height" PRE OUT L & R, located just below the subwoofer pre out? Can these not be used to connect with an amp?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Question:
On the topic of getting an AVR with pre-amp outputs, below is a pic of my current vsx-522k. What are the "Surr Back/Front Height" PRE OUT L & R, located just below the subwoofer pre out? Can these not be used to connect with an amp?
]

To me it looks like they are pre outs but for the designated purpose. It looks like your receiver can be set up as a 7.1 receiver with that pre going to either the back wall or up high front wall with the surround going on the side walls. Page 10 in manual shows all the possible setups. The pre outs would need an amp though.
The best way to improve your setup is with the speaker and room layout and setup, possible room acoustic panels.