DefTech SM65’s or EmpTek R55Ti.

[FL81]

I’m looking at changing my current 5.1 setup and asking if anyone has listen to these two. I’m thinking of DefTech SM65’s L/R with the CS-8040 for the center OR EmpTek R55Ti L/R and the R5Ci as a center.
I have to go with the smaller center due to the AV stand, height restriction of 7.25 inches.

I know, I know. I should listen first, but I cannot with the R55Ti and the only place around me that has the SM65’s in stock, have them set up in a 8x8 room with 7 other pairs of speakers. Also, none of the BB locations around me carry them.

My room size is small (apartment living room), 17 X 14 with 7 foot ceiling. This would be used for 70% music/30% movies.
I have Outlaw separates, 975 pre/pro and model 5000 amp, so I have plenty of power on hand. Sub is a SVS pb12nsd and surrounds are Deftec SM350’s. Side note, if I go with EMP I’ll grab the matching surrounds in time.
I am asking if anyone has heard both of these, what you likes or dislikes are comments, suggestions.



So fire away.

 

[FL81]

Anyone?

 

[agarwalro]

What do you have for fronts now? What do you feel is lacking in their sound?

 

[FL81]

I have the Mythos 4 for the L/R, Mythos 3 for the center and all three are crosses over at 90 Htz. The sound coming is thin, male voices sound like they are missing the bottom end.

For movies they are ok, but music not so much.

 

[agarwalro]

For movies they are ok, but music not so much.

Are you listening to music in Pure Direct or 2.0 mode?

 

[FL81]

2.1, Sorry I forgot to mention that.

 

[agarwalro]

Have you optimized the speaker and subwoofer locations? Not saying that these are guaranteed to please speakers, just trying to get to the root of the issue before spending your money .

Assuming you're not fighting room response issues and based on this review, http://www.soundandvision.com/content/definitive-technology-mythos-four-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

try raising all the crossovers to 120Hz.

 

[FL81]

After reading the last page, I'm not surprised by the –3dB point is at mythos 4, 104 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 90 Hz.

I did what you suggested and still not happy with the sound. I am gonna spend some money in a few weeks still. I want to upgrade to a more full range sound, well almost full range, something that is gonna dip into the 60-50 Htz, I want more mid range. Again, thanks for the help.

Your thoughts on the two speakers I listed or advice on a different brand.
Im trying to stay under 900 for the front three speakers, if that helps

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In my experience, changing the crossover point never does anything significant. Neither does changing amps.

2 things are significant to me - speakers/bass & EQ.

I think a lot of times it may be the bass EQ (2.1, 5.1).

For example, when I use Audyssey Room EQ, I don't see a significant improvement. So I rule out Room EQ.

But when I turn on Audyssey Dynamic EQ (bass EQ), I see a significant day-and-night improvement.

And it's not that the bass (subwoofer level)) is increased. I can manually boost the subwoofer bass by 10dB and still don't see the significant improvement in dynamics if I turn off Dynamic EQ.

The treble doesn't seem to change to me either. The overall sound is "richer" and "fuller" more dynamic, yet still clear, not muddy.

If you can borrow a Denon or Marantz AVR with Audyssey Dynamic EQ to try it out, it may surprise you.

It's trial and error, rule out by elimination. It may be the speakers. It may be the bass EQ.

In my experience, I would never buy anything that doesn't have Audyssey XT Dynamic (bass) EQ, including Bryston, Cary Audio, Rotel, Outlaw, etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As for speakers, I vote for the R55Ti for more dynamics and fuller sound.

 

[FL81]

Unfortunately, I don't have a Marantz or Denon I can borrow. I was on the fence for months whether the pick up the outlaw stuff because it didn't have any kind of time correction. My Onkyo had Audyssey and more recently Yamaha, with its own room correction. I will say the outlaw sounds better then anything I've owned, I set it up the old fashion way, with a SPL meter on C weight and a tape measure. I guess I'm setting my expectations too high, previously I had many 2.0 setup that included, polk LSI 9, Boston acoustics VRM 60s and others.

 

[FL81]

As for speakers, I vote for the R55Ti for more dynamics and fuller sound.

thanks.

 

[agarwalro]

After reading the last page, I'm not surprised by the –3dB point is at mythos 4, 104 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 90 Hz.

That should cover most baritone male vocals. I suspect you might have a midrange dip due to a room response issue. How far are the speakers from walls? Have you tried measuring it using test tones and plotting the SPL readings?

I agree with ADTG that Audyssey DynamicEQ made a huge difference in getting fuller bass at low listening levels. I too will consider this a must have feature going forward. That said, it is not a fix for room and/or speaker issues. Here is the EQ applied based on master volume,

Without pinpointing the issue and replacing speakers or electronics, you're just gambling.

 

[FL81]

That should cover most baritone male vocals. I suspect you might have a midrange dip due to a room response issue. How far are the speakers from walls? Have you tried measuring it using test tones and plotting the SPL readings?
Without pinpointing the issue and replacing speakers or electronics, you're just gambling.

This too all makes sense. I have the speakers 10-12 inches from the wall, in front of my tv, slightly toed in and about 6 feet apart from each other. I do have hardwoods, with two area rugs but what could be another problem are the 8 windows, they all have curtains but my walls are pretty bare. My coffee table/end tables are all glass, so Im sure I have a lot of reflections going on in my room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I guess I'm setting my expectations too high

You should expect awesome sound. If you are not 100% happy with the sound, then your expectations aren't met.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with ADTG that Audyssey DynamicEQ made a huge difference in getting fuller bass at low listening levels.

I get richer fuller bass at full volume (usually -30dB for my setup) because I don't listen to low volume often.

My usual volume often shakes the room.

It depends on how you set it up.

 

[agarwalro]

Definitely play more with the placement. Move them closer to the walls, move them out (adjusting distance and level every time you make a change), play with the toe-in angle. Also, have you tried using to Tone and LFE controls? Turn the Treble 3 dB down and LFE 1.5 dB up.

 

[agarwalro]

I get richer fuller bass at full volume (usually -30dB for my setup) because I don't listen to low volume often.

My usual volume often shakes the room.

It depends on how you set it up.

LOL! The EQ does not change from what I linked. The Reference Level Offset allows one to engage it more aggressively based on the MV offset being 0, -5 or -10 dB. The pink line (no EQ) will be applied at the number assigned for RLO. The boost/cut curves will be determined by the MV + RLO.

Say you pick -10 dB as RLO and the MV is at 0 dB, you are actually applying the +10 EQ from the picture.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

LOL! The EQ does not change from what I linked. The Reference Level Offset allows one to engage it more aggressively based on the MV offset being 0, -5 or -10 dB. The pink line (no EQ) will be applied at the number assigned for RLO. The boost/cut curves will be determined by the MV + RLO.

Say you pick -10 dB as RLO and the MV is at 0 dB, you are actually applying the +10 EQ from the picture.

My Denon (AVP, 5308, 3312) do not have Reference Level Offset (RLO) settings (0dB, 5dB, 10dB, 15dB).

I have to adjust the Trim Level (speaker channel level) to achieve this effect.

My understanding is that the higher (louder) the Master Volume (MV), the less Dynamic EQ (DEQ) is applied (less DEQ = less boosts and less compression of sound). The lower (quieter) the Master Volume, the more DEQ is applied. So a Master Volume of -40dB gets a lot more DEQ/boosts/compression than a Master Volume of -10dB.

So if the Master Volume is at -30dB and is producing 90dB of sound, it is also producing a lot more DEQ/boost/compression than if the Master Volume is at -25dB and producing the same 90dB of sound.

A RLO of 0dB produces the MOST DEQ/boosts/compression and a RLO of 15dB produces the LEAST DEQ/boosts/compression.

Thus, the amount or magnitude of DEQ/boosts/compression is dependent on both the Reference Level Offset and Master Volume.

A RLO of 0dB and MV of -30dB produces a lot more DEQ/boosts than a RLO of 15dB and MV of -25dB.

In ADDITION, you can also control DEQ by adjusting the TRIM LEVEL. The higher you set the TRIM level, the lower the Master Volume will NEED to be and thus, the more DEQ/boosts you will get (using the same speakers, subs, setup).

Example 1: Trim Level of 0.0 (75dB pink noise) requires a Master Volume of -25dB to produce total volume of 90dB.

Example 2: Trim Level of +5.0 (80dB pink noise) requires a Master Volume of -30dB to produce a total volume of 90dB.

So let's say we are listening to a total volume of 90dB (same speakers, same RLO, same setup).

A Master Volume of -30dB will create more DEQ/boosts/compression than a Master volume of -25dB.

So to sum it all up, the Lower the Reference Level Offset (0 is lowest, 15 is highest) and the Higher the Trim Level (+12.0 is highest, -12.0 is lowest), the Lower the Master Volume (-30dB is lower than -20dB), the MORE Dynamic EQ is applied, the More boosts and compression is applied

 

[FL81]

Definitely play more with the placement. Move them closer to the walls, move them out (adjusting distance and level every time you make a change), play with the toe-in angle. Also, have you tried using to Tone and LFE controls? Turn the Treble 3 dB down and LFE 1.5 dB up.

Rookie Mistake. The right speaker was hooked up out of phase but I didn’t do this. I asked my girlfriend if she moved anything or plugged anything into the speaker. She said, about a week ago one of our cats was playing, ran behind the speaker with a toy and pulled the wire out. She simply plugged the banana plugs into the speaker not knowing she did it wrong. I told her in the future if this happen just match up the colors.

Listening to 2.1 sounds much better but still I want bigger drivers.

As far as tone controls, the deftechs are very bright, treb is at 0 but bass at a +2.
My LFE on my pre/pro can only go down, starts at 0, -1,-2,-3 etc...