Pure Direct vs Stereo

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Not exactly sure what your are describing. What is the product you are using? And thank you for the reply.
It's not a commercial product but my own design. Although the speaker system does not have a sub, as it does not require one, being truly full range. However the LFE signal is captured and used. The larger knob on my custom amp/speaker controller changes the electronic crossover around to make the speakers work correctly without an LFE signal.



So this function is part of the total design system. I mainly use this switch for SACDs played via the multichannel inputs when the are 5 audio channels and no sub.

So I guess in your situation you would have to have some DIY and design skills to even incorporate an analog electronic crossover to do what you want.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Direct/pure direct is different than no room correction. Turning Audyssey off or using "bypass L/R" still utilizes a lot of the processing in the receiver (besides just room correction). Direct and Pure Direct bypass these additional processing steps giving a sound that is closer to what is on the source.
Which becomes a good reason not to use an AVR for stereo music. For all my music, stereo, DVD-A/SACD I use a Parasound P7....pure analog, nothing to turn off. Nothing to screw up the sound. Easier to use, everything can be changed on the fly, w/o having to go deep into some menu.
 
T

twylight

Audioholic Intern
My opinion is we are way past the point of diminishing returns with higher end Denons and the like vs direct connect or separate processors. Could probably tune the sound with an extra bass trap more than all the cables and processors combined...I have tried Denon 4311, Onkyo 905, Emo UMC, Direct outs of an OPPO 105...couldnt tell for the life of me....however I measured my room with the right reflection panel missing and its was audible and measurable. (its in an annoying place)

Ultimately I run everything thru the denon 4311 with my music mode being Stereo, LFE+main (2.1) and all processing turned off like audyssey 32. Music is delivered via the OPPO 105 via RCA to another input than when running BD.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm pretty sure I had read through this thread, but missed an important statement. I suspect many caught it, but there are probably some (like me) that sometimes gloss over some details. I highlited relevant statements in red:

From BatPIG over at AVS who's pretty much is a Denon 4311 guru.

"" Can you explain more about DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, and how they differ from STEREO mode?
The major difference is that, when in DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, the receiver bypasses most (or all) of the additional processing circuitry such as Tone Controls (bass/treble) and Bass Management. Theoretically, bypassing or shutting off any unneeded circuitry should deliver slightly "purer" audio quality; in practice, you may or may not hear a difference.
If you look in Denon's manuals, they quote their S/N ratio specs in DIRECT mode, which implies that DIRECT will have a slightly lower noise floor than regular STEREO mode.
The key functional difference for most setups is that, when in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the speakers are treated as large regardless of how you set things up in the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu.
The only difference between DIRECT and PURE DIRECT mode is that PURE DIRECT shuts off all the video circuitry, including the display on the receiver itself. Note that if you use PURE DIRECT with an HDMI source, the video will still remain on as the receiver needs to keep the HDMI circuitry active to process the audio. In other respects they are the same; PURE DIRECT and DIRECT share all settings, including surround parameters, subwoofer mode, channel levels, etc.
To set up audio for 2-channel listening, you need to use the 2CH DIRECT/STEREO menu found under MANUAL SETUP > AUDIO SETUP. However, because of the quirks of DIRECT and PURE DIRECT modes, the settings are not always obvious in how they function. In typical Denon fashion, the settings do NOT apply equally to STEREO and DIRECT modes! Here is a summary of the behavior of this special sub menu:

When in DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode:
- "Small" vs. "Large" is ignored (the front speakers are always treated as "large")
- The subwoofer will be active only if the LFE+<st1:place w:st="on">MAIN</st1lace> setting is on, and it will be "double bass" because the front speakers will be treated as "large". ** note that you can still have the sub set to LFE in the "normal" subwoofer setup menu, this is just referring to the "2CH DIRECT/STEREO" settings
- The "crossover" frequency effectively functions as an LPF (low pass filter) for the subwoofer's "double bass", but does NOT affect the fronts (again, because of the first bullet point). The "crossover" thus effectively becomes an upper limit or "cap" for the double bass effect. So a good strategy is to set the "crossover" to where your front speakers naturally roll off, to try and get a smooth "blend" despite the double bass. """"""

Well. interesting
So if you have receiver set to LFE + Main, your speakers will play full range while the subs are engaged up to the crossover setting. Obviously if your mains are truly full range, you are changing the sound by adding lots of bass when you switch from Stereo to Pure Direct.

If you have receiver set to LFE + Main, and your mains are small and your speakers need lots of power (and/or low impedance) and you like to crank it, you are increasing the demand to the amp when switching to the Pure Direct configuration because you are feeding the lower frequencies to your mains, which would likely hurt sound quality.

If you have the receiver set to LFE, and your speakers are set to large, switching to Pure Direct from Stereo does not change any settings and you would unlikely detect any difference.

It is no wonder lots of people have different ideas of whether or not Pure Direct makes a difference and, if so, whether it is good or bad!
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I'm pretty sure I had read through this thread, but missed an important statement. I suspect many caught it, but there are probably some (like me) that sometimes gloss over some details. I highlited relevant statements in red:
Kurt you dug up Pure Gold there :).
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
So, how is the volume controlled in these "pure vanilla" modes? Is it done in the analog domain, or does it require the input signal be converted to digital in order to accomplish that?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So, how is the volume controlled in these "pure vanilla" modes? Is it done in the analog domain, or does it require the input signal be converted to digital in order to accomplish that?
Since the receiver is still applying the XO for the sub, I believe it is still going into the digital domain, so the "purity" is already compromised. Personally, I don't care. I don't believe there is an audible difference. My point is there is much argument over Stereo vs Direct and, because it changes the bass management of the mains (without us expecting it to) we are actually arguing over the difference of running the mains full range or not.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Since the receiver is still applying the XO for the sub, I believe it is still going into the digital domain, so the "purity" is already compromised. Personally, I don't care. I don't believe there is an audible difference. My point is there is much argument over Stereo vs Direct and, because it changes the bass management of the mains (without us expecting it to) we are actually arguing over the difference of running the mains full range or not.
This is a good point.

In my test today, switching to Pure Direct resulted in 2.0 sound (my subs are LFE only). This might be a way to get true Pure Direct sound. My source is the media over WiFi so take the next statement with a grain of salt.

I gained a lot of soundstage, almost overbearing, but lost imaging (toggling 2.0 Audyssey on vs off). I like (rather, confirmed) what Audyssey did for my setup. That said, before running Audyssey, I spent hours finding the optimal locations for my 2.2 setup using REW and a UMIK 1.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Since the receiver is still applying the XO for the sub, I believe it is still going into the digital domain, so the "purity" is already compromised. Personally, I don't care. I don't believe there is an audible difference. My point is there is much argument over Stereo vs Direct and, because it changes the bass management of the mains (without us expecting it to) we are actually arguing over the difference of running the mains full range or not.
You are correct in most points you make. In my set up there is absolutely no change in sound going to Direct and Pure Direct modes.

As far as the crossovers are concerned, I do not believe that are digital. They behave as standard analog electronic crossovers. Circuits are never published, but I would ve very surprised if these were not analog crossovers.

Volume however I suspect is digital what ever the mode.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
To my ears, even w/ Audyssey off, the AVR adds something in Stereo that is not added in Direct.
Try this: turn Audyssey off, set L/R to Large, Stereo mode, put on some music. Then hit Direct. I can clearly detect some brightness lost going into Direct. It reminds me of turning off the old Loudness switch.

At low volumes, the brightness of Stereo is helpful. At higher volumes, at some point it becomes obtrusive and I go to Direct. And I've found the better the speakers, the lower that point is.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
To my ears, even w/ Audyssey off, the AVR adds something in Stereo that is not added in Direct.
Try this: turn Audyssey off, set L/R to Large, Stereo mode, put on some music. Then hit Direct. I can clearly detect some brightness lost going into Direct. It reminds me of turning off the old Loudness switch.

At low volumes, the brightness of Stereo is helpful. At higher volumes, at some point it becomes obtrusive and I go to Direct. And I've found the better the speakers, the lower that point is.
I suspect what you hear has to do with a change in bass management.

In my system I can defeat all the bass management from the pre/pro at the flick of a switch. The output from the LFE then is not included and all bass management is from my electronic crossovers. Since the speakers are truly full range this is a valid test. I here no difference between the stereo modes and the Direct ones.

I think it really does take a fully full range speaker that does not need a sub to do a fair test.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
As far as the crossovers are concerned, I do not believe that are digital. They behave as standard analog electronic crossovers. Circuits are never published, but I would ve very surprised if these were not analog crossovers.
I just saw where earlier in this thread ADTG had contacted Denon and they confirmed that they did use an analog XO. I'm not certain if this applies to their least expensive receivers or not, as it seems to be an added expense other manufactures (Yamaha, Onkyo) do not include. Kind of surprised Denon and Marantz do this - I don't think too many people look at that as a deal-breaker when buying.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I suspect what you hear has to do with a change in bass management.
I agree. My conclusion is the same. Unless bass management is involved, I don't hear a real difference between DIRECT and Stereo.

BTW, I have not used Pure Direct ever since I discovered Dynamic EQ (bass management). :D
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
I suspect what you hear has to do with a change in bass management...The output from the LFE then is not included and all bass management is from my electronic crossovers.
Please help me understand that.
1) I didn't know there was anything in LFE in music.
2) With my subs set to "LFE", mode Stereo, L/R set to Large, and Audyssey off, what bass mgmt is going on? I thought that scenario would mean simply everything going to L/R and no sub.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Please help me understand that.
1) I didn't know there was anything in LFE in music.
2) With my subs set to "LFE", mode Stereo, L/R set to Large, and Audyssey off, what bass mgmt is going on? I thought that scenario would mean simply everything going to L/R and no sub.
No there is no discrete LFE channel, however if you set a crossover then there is LFE output below and around the set crossover frequency. In pure direct all this is changed.

To really see if there is a difference you need to have a speaker than can play from 20 Hz to 20 KHz without a sub, or have a sub fed from a crossover independent of the AVR or pre/pro.

If you just use the mains, then you have to make sure sub is set to no and you do not engage the LFE plus main setting.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
If you just use the mains, then you have to make sure sub is set to no and you do not engage the LFE plus main setting.
I thought in stereo mode, setting your L/R to Large meant nothing was sent to the sub, (if sub is set to LFE Only). So no crossover. (Edit: Verified the display on the X4000 verifies the subs are not used when L/R are set to Large, Audyssey OFF or L/R Bypass, and Stereo mode.)

For the speakers, Dennis measures the Phil3s down to 25Hz +/- 2dB, and states, "useful bass response down to 20Hz".

So I'm sorry, but y'all know I'm kind of slow. I read where Audyssey distance & volume settings are not bypassed in Direct. (So turning on Direct should not lower the volume.) So I'm still wondering what in the AVR is providing the enhancement in Stereo/Large/Audyssey Off/No LFE?

Well, I'm not really wondering as I'm probably not smart enough to understand the technical answer. But I am saying there is a clear and noticeable difference between the above setup and Direct... so the AVR is doing something.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top