Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I kind of over simplified it a little Irv but you can't deny that outsourcing has hurt a huge population base. Sure we have access to a lot more goods than we would have if manufactured in house. However, I rather have less goods knowing I've employed more locally (US and Canada) and are contributing to the tax pool.

What I find really dumb and Canada is very guilty of this is selling our raw resources for cheap and importing the finished product for much more than we sold the raw resources for. Keep the raw resources at home, develope them in house and sell them in house instead of importing the finished product.
I'm not an economist, but the only ways I know of to stimulate local manufacturing are trade barriers, import duties, tax advantages, and subsidies. These can work, like Israel getting Intel to put a chip fab in Jerusalem (Is that dumb, or what?), but barriers or subsidies are just a transfer of wealth from the general population to the few that benefit, so you only do it to get a strategic advantage. You don't get a strategic advantage from making shoes, but for some industries it is worth it. For example, the US has some weird laws about where ships have to be constructed (only US-made ships can transport goods between US ports) to ensure a viable ship-building industry for national defense purposes.

The raw materials case is an interesting one. The US sends a lot of raw logs overseas too, while at the same time US mill workers get laid off. I think in both of our countries this is a policy decision influenced by lobbying. (Does Canada have lobbyists?)

I think that countries, including the US, and perhaps especially the US, needs to do more to have a motivated, well-trained population. If you have the people with hard to find skills, industry will follow.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That remains to be seen. Germany became an economic power long before the EU was ever conceived.
Please see my explanation of what I said is true in my synopsis of the latest developments. Today's developments are exactly what those closely following the situation predicted. This is not going to be good.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Here is an article Ambrose Evans- Pritchard has just posted. He is one of the most experienced of economic reporters.

IMF stuns Europe with calls for massive Greek debt relief.

A commenter has really summed it up and put it a bit harsher then I would, but you really can't argue with his points.

moraymint4 hours ago

For those of us unconvinced about the future of the Euro currency and, by extension the future of the European Union, it's an absolute delight to observe and read about the slow-motion collapse of both. Thanks for this latest insight Ambrose.

Some of us ordinary Joes, us swivel-eyed fruitcakes, us Little Englanders, us xenophobes, us Europhobes have for many, many years been pointing out that the European Union is madness writ large and doomed to fail. Even crazier than the Union itself is the Euro currency: a piece of politico-economic lunacy that was supposed to press gang Eurozone nations in to loving each other so much that a European superstate would emerge as if by magic.

Er, something seems to be going wrong with the 'ever closer union' vision as far as I can tell. But hey, who am I? I'm just some ordinary Joe, a swivel-eyed fruitcake, a Little Englander, a xenophone, a Europhobe who wouldn't know his Euro from his drachma if it ran over him in a tank.

Notwithstanding, all the best with the 'ever closer union' thingummybob guys. From where I'm sitting - working my way through a very nice bottle of Barons de Rothschild Lafite Reserve Speciale 2013 (competitively priced) as it happens - my money remains firmly on the demise of the European Union in the same way that the USSR fell to pieces. The sooner the better, of course.

Let's be honest; these guys couldn't run a bath. Greece is doomed for as long as it hangs on to the Euro. Next in line is Spain, then Italy, Portugal, France and so on. The whole Eurozone/EU thing is an ill-conceived shambles, always destined to fail. It's very comforting to know this, I must say.
 
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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
If the whole Euro thing was an ill conceived paved with golden intentions thing then have some questions, TLS.

In a fairly short time England will have to reconsider whether they want to maintain the status quo, adopt the Euro, or just part ways completely. You've stated a full exit would have a positive economic benefit for the Brits. Therefore...

Who decides in England? Parliament, popular vote, MP's?
What's the benefit, purported or otherwise for continuing with things as they are?
Is it believed that an exit would result in punitive retaliatory measures?
What about other countries that belong but don't use the Euro?
What's the interest in the united states for wanting to see the preservation of the EU? Just the POTUS or is Congress ismilsrly like minded?
If England opts out, are they still compelled, perhaps by existing laws or policies, to have a carte Blanche for people looking to leave their countries and settle there?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If the whole Euro thing was an ill conceived paved with golden intentions thing then have some questions, TLS.

In a fairly short time England will have to reconsider whether they want to maintain the status quo, adopt the Euro, or just part ways completely. You've stated a full exit would have a positive economic benefit for the Brits. Therefore...

Who decides in England? Parliament, popular vote, MP's?
What's the benefit, purported or otherwise for continuing with things as they are?
Is it believed that an exit would result in punitive retaliatory measures?
What about other countries that belong but don't use the Euro?
What's the interest in the united states for wanting to see the preservation of the EU? Just the POTUS or is Congress ismilsrly like minded?
If England opts out, are they still compelled, perhaps by existing laws or policies, to have a carte Blanche for people looking to leave their countries and settle there?
First you have to understand that Britain does not have a written constitution. It is based on tradition and precedence.

Only the House of commons can pass legislation of the type we are talking about. The House of Lords will debate it, but have no power of veto. All legislation requires royal consent, but only in exceptional circumstances would it be denied and there would be a constitutional crisis.

Now in UK general elections you vote for an MP. The party with the most MPs is asked by the Queen to form her government. It should be understood that the party selects the prime minister and can and sometimes does replace him or her. With the parliamentary whips, a British prime minister has enormous power to get through legislation.

Now the UK has had a difficult relationship with what was originally called the European Common Market, and was a free trade association. Charles De Gaullle was always opposed to British membership. However Prime Minister Edward Heath, a committed Europhile, got the UK admitted.

Over time the EU has had mission creep, and got involved in free movement of labor, standards, (including stupid ones about how curved a banana can be) human rights and most stupidly of all the Euro currency.

Gordon Brown the last labor prime minister to his credit kept the UK from getting entangled in the Euro project and kept the UK anchored to its world reserve currency Sterling.

Over time many in the conservative party have become increasingly Eurosceptic. In addition there has been the rise of UKIP under Nigel Farage that wants the UK out of the EU.

Because of all the pressure, especially from UKIP, David Cameron the prime minister promised an in out referendum to be held prior to the end of 2017. He has stated he is going to get treaty change in the EU, and if not back exit. So far he has not had much traction getting the treaty of Lisbon changed, which would require the agreement of all members.

Prior to this last weeks fiasco a slight majority of the UK population have been in favor of staying in. However this small majority has fluctuated for and against over time. My hunch is that this fiasco over Greece will drive up the out numbers.

The down side of leaving is the possibility of trade disruption with continental Europe. However due to the endless poor performance of the EU, UK trade with the EU is dropping precipitously and Britain doing well in other markets. In addition I'm pretty sure whatever the outcome the city of London will remain a world financial center the equal of New York. As a financial center, London dwarfs all others in Europe, much to the annoyance of the French and Germans.

A big frustration is the arrival of huge numbers of arrivals from poor performing members in the EU like Greece, Spain, Italy Portugal, Poland and Romania especially. In London I have found practically every language is spoken except English. Even far out in the countryside of the Malvern Hills I have frequently encountered Eastern European tongues.

This has caused enormous anger among the UK English speaking public. Regaining control of the borders is a major part of the UKIP platform. This uncontrolled immigration has caused a massive housing shortage in the UK.

My hunch is that the vote will be a vote to leave when it comes. Now any referendum is non binding, as only Parliament can enact the law to leave the EU. However I very much doubt that a vote to exit the EU by the public would not soon result in legislation to leave the EU.

After that, then the writ of law of the EU would be null and void in the UK and the UK would regain control of its borders.

Britain will NEVER adopt the Euro.

If Britain exits, I actually expect a number of other European countries to join with her in a new trade association. I'm personally convinced leaving the EU is the correct choice for Britain and will result in great benefits.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
It does because to do what you want would require import duties, which is the same side of the coin of restrictive practice.
No!! What I want is to develop the resources ourselves and export finished product even if buying it costs us more. That way more people are employed and greater revenuue generated in the country than buying an imported good at a much higher cost than what we sold the raw materials at therefore losing money out of the country. That's got nothing to do with chains, legislating work days etc, nothing at all or turning into Greece. Besides, the Canadian wortk ethic is far better than Greece.
 
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Audioholic Slumlord
It would not cripple it but free it, and most economists agree. It would actually hurt Germany.
Again, only short term hurt... much less hurt than what England went through when Margret Thatcher had to clean up England's failing economy.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
No!! What I want is to develop the resources ourselves and export finished product even if buying it costs us more. That way more people are employed and greater revenuue generated in the country than buying an imported good at a much higher cost than what we sold the raw materials at therefore losing money out of the country. That's got nothing to do with chains, legislating work days etc, nothing at all or turning into Greece. Besides, the Canadian wortk ethic is far better than Greece.
I agree in theory, but people will pay yhtblowest price possible. As far as exports, unless it can be exported and sold there cheaper than the competition, you're boned.

Now, I agree with the "Buy American (or Canadian)" mantra even though it costs a little more but there aren't too many people like that. Do youse* have Walmart up there?

But, and I hate to say this, I'm not too sure about the American work ethic anymore. Kids today want to start at the top and with the way "entitlements" are going and the recent college graduates not finding work, it doesn't look good.

Our manufacturing base is almost non-existent and the companies and the technical manufacturing companies aren't willing to train their own. They would rather import H1B workers.

And, not many kids want to go into trades. That takes too long to make money and it's hard work.

*Joisey speak for "you all". When we move to Texas that would then be "Y'all".
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
No!! What I want is to develop the resources ourselves and export finished product even if buying it costs us more. That way more people are employed and greater revenuue generated in the country than buying an imported good at a much higher cost than what we sold the raw materials at therefore losing money out of the country. That's got nothing to do with chains, legislating work days etc, nothing at all or turning into Greece. Besides, the Canadian wortk ethic is far better than Greece.
What do you see as products that could be made domestically in Canada or the US from domestically sourced resources and either sold within those countries or exported?

I have read stories of people who have sought to do just that and were met by unresponsiveness, poor communication, unwillingness to commit to tooling for parts. Now maybe that's because manufacturing does not occupy the prominence it once had and companies which includes small ones are leery and more focused in niche areas. But what is it that you have in mind?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree in theory, but people will pay yhtblowest price possible. As far as exports, unless it can be exported and sold there cheaper than the competition, you're boned.

Now, I agree with the "Buy American (or Canadian)" mantra even though it costs a little more but there aren't too many people like that. Do youse* have Walmart up there?

But, and I hate to say this, I'm not too sure about the American work ethic anymore. Kids today want to start at the top and with the way "entitlements" are going and the recent college graduates not finding work, it doesn't look good.

Our manufacturing base is almost non-existent and the companies and the technical manufacturing companies aren't willing to train their own. They would rather import H1B workers.

And, not many kids want to go into trades. That takes too long to make money and it's hard work.

*Joisey speak for "you all". When we move to Texas that would then be "Y'all".
The starting at the top attitude is prevalent here in Canada as well. I blame it on too many dumb ass programs like "The Hills" or "Jersey Whores" erm "Jersey Shores" :p
 
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Audioholic Slumlord
What do you see as products that could be made domestically in Canada or the US from domestically sourced resources and either sold within those countries or exported?

I have read stories of people who have sought to do just that and were met by unresponsiveness, poor communication, unwillingness to commit to tooling for parts. Now maybe that's because manufacturing does not occupy the prominence it once had and companies which includes small ones are leery and more focused in niche areas. But what is it that you have in mind?
Canadian crude for one thing. Dumb-ass Prime Minister Harper and friends decided to sell off some our crude oil rights to the Chinese!! REALLY???????
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
The starting at the top attitude is prevalent here in Canada as well. I blame it on too many dumb ass programs like "The Hills" or "Jersey Whores" erm "Jersey Shores" :p
Not a problem. PBS advertises "The Red/Green Show" as a documentary. ;)

Seriously, those Jersey Shore guidos and sluts are, all aside from one, all from Staten and Long Island. If Noo Yawk wanted to poke us in the eye, they did a great job.

I've never heard of "The Hills".
 
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Audioholic Slumlord
Not a problem. PBS advertises "The Red/Green Show" as a documentary. ;)
Yeah up until I started watching that show, I never knew duct tape had soooooo MANY uses. :p

Seriously, those Jersey Shore guidos and sluts are, all aside from one, all from Staten and Long Island. If Noo Yawk wanted to poke us in the eye, they did a great job.

I've never heard of "The Hills".
Thats a good thing. You ain't missin nothing.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
But, and I hate to say this, I'm not too sure about the American work ethic anymore. Kids today want to start at the top and with the way "entitlements" are going and the recent college graduates not finding work, it doesn't look good.

Our manufacturing base is almost non-existent and the companies and the technical manufacturing companies aren't willing to train their own. They would rather import H1B workers.

And, not many kids want to go into trades. That takes too long to make money and it's hard work.

*Joisey speak for "you all". When we move to Texas that would then be "Y'all".
What is this, the grumpy old man thread? "Kids these days...", where have I heard that before? I know, you walked to school every day in the snow, uphill both ways.

Our manufacturing base is not "almost non-existent". The US has the second-largest manufacturing output in the world, after China. China is 22% of the world's output, the US is 17%. The US is ahead of Japan, who has fallen to third place from second place. The country with the fastest growing manufacturing output is Korea. On the other hand, when you weren't a grumpy old man the US was consistently #1 by a large margin, so I suppose you could reasonably say our base has shrunk. A lot of that lost manufacturing base is in metals production, like steel. I grew up in a place where the sky was always yellow from the blast furnaces, so while we miss the jobs I'm not missing the pollution.

H1B workers don't typically work in manufacturing, per se, they work in professional technical fields, like software development.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
. Irv, let's take a ride on New Jersey Transit train from the Raritan River to NYC and I'll show you literally hundreds of abandoned factories. GM is gone Ford is gone. American Cyanamid is gone, Western Electric, RCA, Gordons Gin, Carpenter Technology (specialty steel), Singer (sewing machines) is gone and that's just in my immediate area. There's a lot more unknown abandoned buildings you'll see in that 30 minute train ride.

And, grumpy old man my ass. When one graduated high school (and LBJ was president) when I did, anyone willing to get up in the morning, go to work, learn, take orders and put in an honest days work could get a job that paid a living wage at any of those places I mentioned. Now, being in a fairly urban area, we're seeing the effect of those jobs not being there.

And, some manufacturing nowadays is done with fairly technical equipment. Kids could be trained in a tech school type environment but that would take co-ordination between the companies and local school systems. That's been proposed but nothing has been done about it. So, they import their workers from overseas where they DO train them on the latest technologies.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/smallbusiness/manufacturing-workers/

The question is, WHY are there no skilled workers? A good reason is that a lot of these jobs were passed on from one generation to another by on the job training. Betcha if they offered training they would find a plethora of willing workers. ...but they would have to train them, like they used to.

Here's one company that gets it.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/just-whose-job-is-it-to-train-workers-1405554382

And, this recent article ties in with what TLS guy is talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/business/economy/as-dollar-heats-up-overseas-us-manufacturers-feel-a-chill.html?_r=0

So, Irv, I can only say that you've obviously been lucky enough to live a life insulted from these harsh realities most of us have had to deal with. Were you a teacher or government worker?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Irv, let's take a ride on New Jersey Transit train from the Raritan River to NYC and I'll show you literally hundreds of abandoned factories. GM is gone Ford is gone. American Cyanamid is gone, Western Electric, RCA, Gordons Gin, Carpenter Technology (specialty steel), Singer (sewing machines) is gone and that's just in my immediate area. There's a lot more unknown abandoned buildings you'll see in that 30 minute train ride.
Yeah, New Jersey and New York are lame. Shadows of their former selves. So let's look at your list. GM and Ford were stupid in the 70s and 80s, and so were their unions, and now the two of them put together have a total market capitalization lower than Intel. Pathetic. Western Electric is kaput. So is RCA and Singer. Lame and dead. On the other hand, you need to take a car ride around Silicon Valley, or maybe a tour of the southeast US, to see where the auto industry has gone. Hell, Kentucky produces more cars than New Jersey does. Why do you think that is?

And, grumpy old man my ass. When one graduated high school (and LBJ was president) when I did, anyone willing to get up in the morning, go to work, learn, take orders and put in an honest days work could get a job at any of those places I mentioned. Now, being in a fairly urban area, we're seeing the effect of those jobs not being there.
We conquered the world with our economic system, and now we have competition. When you were growing up the competition was the Soviet Union, which was not an economic power, just a military one. Now we have competition for low to medium skill manufacturing jobs, and if anyone wants a great lifestyle they probably have to do more than just take orders. I'll tell you this though, every Boeing worker is glad China, Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam are not what they formerly were. So are the GE turbofan folks in Cincinnati. Or the Honeywell avionics people. (And, no, I don't work in the aircraft industry, I was just using them as an example.)

You know, it's funny, I remember travelling for business to Japan in the 80s. Everyone was afraid of Japan back then. They were going to supplant the US as the world economic leader, they shut down the American TV manufacturing industry, non-technical government types were trembling at their 5th Generation Computer project. Remember that? Toyota was going to kill GM. (Too late, GM killed itself long before Toyota was in any condition to do that.) We were weak and they were strong. Anybody who actually worked with the Japanese companies knew it wasn't going to last. Eventually, innovation beats execution. You need both to succeed, witness Great Britain, but if you have to pick one, pick innovation. The US isn't so hot on execution sometimes, but innovation usually takes diversity of thought, which takes a certain culture, and that's more difficult to just create out of nothing. Not that it can't be done, but I don't think I'll live long enough to see the US overtaken in that regard, so I'm still going long on the US, in stock market speak. Nonetheless, the great executors are going to give us a bumpy ride for some years yet, IMO.

And, some manufacturing nowadays is done with fairly technical equipment. Kids could be trained in a tech school type environment but that would take co-ordination between the companies and local school systems. That's been proposed but nothing has been done about it. So, they import their workers from overseas where they DO train them on the latest technologies.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/05/smallbusiness/manufacturing-workers/

The question is, WHY are there no skilled workers? A good reason is that a lot of these jobs were passed on from one generation to another by on the job training
I think the problem is mostly a lack of sense of urgency about learning high school math, reading, and writing skills. Anyone who doesn't have those skills will only have a dim future. If I was in high school right now I'd be scared out of my wits not to have those skills. I meet people all the time going into debt for university degrees in political science, English, music, bible studies, law school... all I can say is, fine with me, but no fair bitching about low pay later.

And, this recent article ties in with what TLS guy is talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/business/economy/as-dollar-heats-up-overseas-us-manufacturers-feel-a-chill.html?_r=0

So, Irv, I can only say that you've obviously been lucky enough to live a life insulted from these harsh realities most of us have had to deal with. Were you a teacher or government worker?
No, I'm not a teacher or a government worker, and I still work for a living, Mark. You know, it really is fun arguing with you, but you're making it too easy. You need to get your facts together before typing in these wild, unsupported statements.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
So, Irv, you're saying that our schools are failing the country, not on companies looking for excuses to hire from outside? Not all kids who graduate high school are dummies. A lot of these kids really try to apply themselves and would be good raw material for any company that would take the time to train them.

As for silicon valley, not everyone is cut out to be programmers.

I agree, those that go into debt for BS degrees caused their own problem but, as I said, where does the average joe who is ready, willing and able supposed to go to find a job that pays a living wage that could possibly lead to a career? Not everyone is college material and has the dexterity to do trade work but companies no longer training their own and looking for H1B workers is giving those kids a royal screwing.

And, I'm retired now but we both should be thankful we're not starting out today.

So, like you said, you really don't address my issues but would rather argue something else, let's just agree to disagree.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Canadian crude for one thing. Dumb-ass Prime Minister Harper and friends decided to sell off some our crude oil rights to the Chinese!! REALLY???????
Cheer up! Comrade Clinton was involved in the sale of about 25% of US uranium to Putin.
 
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Audioholic Slumlord
What is this, the grumpy old man thread? "Kids these days...", where have I heard that before? I know, you walked to school every day in the snow, uphill both ways.

Our manufacturing base is not "almost non-existent". The US has the second-largest manufacturing output in the world, after China. China is 22% of the world's output, the US is 17%. The US is ahead of Japan, who has fallen to third place from second place. The country with the fastest growing manufacturing output is Korea. On the other hand, when you weren't a grumpy old man the US was consistently #1 by a large margin, so I suppose you could reasonably say our base has shrunk. A lot of that lost manufacturing base is in metals production, like steel. I grew up in a place where the sky was always yellow from the blast furnaces, so while we miss the jobs I'm not missing the pollution.

H1B workers don't typically work in manufacturing, per se, they work in professional technical fields, like software development.
Some of this manufacturing in the states comes from foreign investments such as Hyundai and Toyota as examples opening car manufacturing plants on US soil to appease trade restrictions of their product. Thats a good thing but its not because of innovation that spawned this manufacturing.

As far as steel goes.....I'm on the fence about this. It would be better for our economies if produced here but the environmental effects are hideous.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Some of this manufacturing in the states comes from foreign investments such as Hyundai and Toyota as examples opening car manufacturing plants on US soil to appease trade restrictions of their product. Thats a good thing but its not because of innovation that spawned this manufacturing.
That's only true for pick-up trucks, which have a 25% import tariff. For the cars and SUVs the plants are in the US because the overall production and transportation costs are lower than Japan or Korea. I also suspect that local subsidies for land and taxes have a lot do with it.
 
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