Greece

[Irvrobinson]

So, Irv, you're saying that our schools are failing the country, not on companies looking for excuses to hire from outside? Not all kids who graduate high school are dummies. A lot of these kids really try to apply themselves and would be good raw material for any company that would take the time to train them.

As for silicon valley, not everyone is cut out to be programmers.

I agree, those that go into debt for BS degrees caused their own problem but, as I said, where does the average joe who is ready, willing and able supposed to go to find a job that pays a living wage that could possibly lead to a career? Not everyone is college material and has the dexterity to do trade work but companies no longer training their own and looking for H1B workers is giving those kids a royal screwing.

And, I'm retired now but we both should be thankful we're not starting out today.

So, like you said, you really don't address my issues but would rather argue something else, let's just agree to disagree.

Actually, Mark, is what I'm saying is that students are failing themselves, by not taking education seriously and by not choosing careers based on economic potential. Schools could be better, a lot better probably, but individual motivation is the key, IMO.

I really don't understand your fixation on H1B workers. The cap is 85,000 permits for 2016. That's a trivial number as a fraction of the US workforce, and, like I said, most of the petitions come from the high-tech world for engineers.

As for starting out today, I wish I was. I'm in high tech, and when I started it was a pimple compared to where it is now.

 

[markw]

Granted, students must take some responsibility for their future but keep in mind that not all students are college material. What happens to them? As I pointed out, a lot of opportunities no longer exist and companies no longer want to train entry level people like they did in the past.

And, I was a programmer until the early 2000's when, at 51, our company outsourced a lot of programming jobs to an Indian firm. Gotta love the internet.

Here's some other examples.

http://fusion.net/story/105274/outsourced-at-home-u-s-workers-pissed-at-h-1b-visa-program/

http://www.npr.org/2015/06/17/415274530/disney-suddenly-cancels-layoffs-for-technology-employees

You can bet that the layoff wasn't cancelled out ot the goodness of their hearts; I'm sure the reputation of "the happiest place in the world" would have taken a pretty good hit.

And, when you say the manufacturing segment is going strong in the southwest, are you referring to the new Chrysler plants in Mexico?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/10/11/chrysler-mexico/2964595/

Or were you referring to the GM plants?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141211/OEM01/141219966/gm-to-double-mexico-production-capacity-invest-$3.6-billion-in-plants

Now, those are the jobs that I was referring to in my original post. Yes, these generate a lot of jobs, but not for us. Where are OUR kids supposed to go to find work?

Now, are we done here?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Granted, students must take some responsibility for their future but keep in mind that not all students are college material. What happens to them? As I pointed out, a lot of opportunities no longer exist and companies no longer want to train entry level people like they did in the past.

And, I was a programmer until the early 2000's when, at 51, our company outsourced a lot of programming jobs to an Indian firm. Gotta love the internet.

Here's some other examples.

http://fusion.net/story/105274/outsourced-at-home-u-s-workers-pissed-at-h-1b-visa-program/

http://www.npr.org/2015/06/17/415274530/disney-suddenly-cancels-layoffs-for-technology-employees

You can bet that the layoff wasn't cancelled out ot the goodness of their hearts; I'm sure the reputation of "the happiest place in the world" would have taken a pretty good hit.

And, when you say the manufacturing segment is going strong in the southwest, are you referring to the new Chrysler plants in Mexico?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/10/11/chrysler-mexico/2964595/

Or were you referring to the GM plants?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141211/OEM01/141219966/gm-to-double-mexico-production-capacity-invest-$3.6-billion-in-plants

Now, those are the jobs that I was referring to in my original post. Yes, these generate a lot of jobs, but not for us. Where are OUR kids supposed to go to find work?

Now, are we done here?

Yes, Mark, some high-tech jobs get out-sourced too.

For auto plants I was referring to the *Southeast* (read the post again), like Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina... not the Southwest. Not Mexico, we're not discussing Mexico. BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW, Kia, and Tesla all have US manufacturing facilities for cars and trucks, and with the exception of Tesla they're all in the Southeast. BMW makes every SUV for worldwide consumption in South Carolina. I was just making the point that they're not in NY and NJ, but new auto manufacturing capacity has been built in the US, lots of it.

What would you propose we do? Throw up trade barriers all over the place, and pass laws that require domestic manufacturing for products sold here?

 

[Chu Gai]

VOX (I know they march to a progressive tune) had an article about the Greece crisis, which like TLS looks at the matter by stepping back a ways.

 

[markw]

Interesting point, Irv. What do all these companies have in common?

Also, what do the states in the southeast they are located have in common?

Think about it. I'm sure you'll figure these two things out.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Interesting point, Irv. What do all these companies have in common?

Also, what do the states in the southeast they are located have in common?

Think about it. I'm sure you'll figure these two things out.

The companies listed don't have anything in common. As the cost of production rises in Asian and European countries, US manufacturing has become more cost competitive. Also, overseas manufacturing entails long supply lines, making it difficult to be as nimble as companies with local manufacturing. Nissan and Toyota need to manufacture here to avoid the pick-up truck tariff, but both produce cars here too. Mercedes and BMW are thought to be here partly because the cost of German manufacturing is so high, but it is impossible to know the true reasoning a company uses. In this thread you're prone to assertion and generalization, so why don't you just tell us what you think?

As for why they're in the Southeast, that's obvious. Those states have more business-friendly labor laws, they are right to work states, costs and taxes are lower, and the states use big subsidies to attract the jobs. I'd make the same choice.

 

[markw]

The companies listed don't have anything in common. As the cost of production rises in Asian and European countries, US manufacturing has become more cost competitive. Also, overseas manufacturing entails long supply lines, making it difficult to be as nimble as companies with local manufacturing. Nissan and Toyota need to manufacture here to avoid the pick-up truck tariff, but both produce cars here too. Mercedes and BMW are thought to be here partly because the cost of German manufacturing is so high, but it is impossible to know the true reasoning a company uses. In this thread you're prone to assertion and generalization, so why don't you just tell us what you think?

As for why they're in the Southeast, that's obvious. Those states have more business-friendly labor laws, they are right to work states, costs and taxes are lower, and the states use big subsidies to attract the jobs. I'd make the same choice.

You're 1 for two, Irv. You're right that they are right-to-work states. That's a big benefit to companies. That's why Boeing wanted to open a new plant in one of them.

But you blew it on the other one: They are all foreign owned companies. That means they have no existing contracts with the UAW. If they had, they would be forced to pay the onerous benefits that the big three are forced to pay. The big three have been described recently as pension companies that make cars on the side. And, the way the union is crying is exactly why Boeing hasn't moved. The union wants to enforce their contracts in a right-to-work state but Boeing, and most companies or states, wants nothing to do with that.

You might want to consider that the unions don't have union contracts in Mexico. think that might have something to do with this, too?

See a connection between these? And, these onerous obligations forced on the big three manufacturers is not unlike the pension system in Greece. And, the government worker pension system is becoming a bigger burden daily, which IS the big problem in Greece.

We've come full circle!

 

[Irvrobinson]

But you blew it on the other one: They are all foreign owned companies. That means they have no existing contracts with the UAW. If they had, they would be forced to pay the onerous benefits that the big three are forced to pay.

Mark, just because I didn't guess what was going through your mind and your personal opinion of what's significant doesn't mean I blew it. The unions could still win a vote at these plants, and then they'd have the UA-troubleyou too. I'm guessing they don't win many though, if any.

You've been such a populist in this thread; I'm frankly surprised you're not pro-union.

 

[markw]

Yes, the unions could still win in those plants but then the new companies will start up elsewhere.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20150417/NEWS10/150419827/boeing-accused-of-unfair-labor-tactics-as-union-cancels-vote

the first comment is quite telling.

And, as in Greece, the overwhelming burden of pension obligation will drag the pension guarantors down, and that's the auto companies and our government.

 

[herbu]

Mark... I'm frankly surprised you're not pro-union.

Now THAT'S funny!!!!

 

[Chu Gai]

Ben Bernacke on the Greece situation. Maybe it's Germany who should exit.

 

[Chu Gai]

How Olive Oil Helps to Explain Greece's Situation.