State's Rights vs Federal Law?

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think that atheists are religious in that they believe that there is no higher power and have faith in that belief. I don't see it as any different than believing in some type of higher power and calling it faith to have that belief. After all, none of us actually knows if there is one or not - so either belief is taken on faith. :)

As for it being a practicing religion, I'd say it is if they share their beliefs and act upon them. I'm not one that thinks someone has to go to a specific building and listen to someone else talk for an hour to be considered a religious person, though. If someone is to be considered religious if they start talking to me about their beliefs, then I'd say that applies to any set of beliefs. Granted, I've never had any atheist missionaries show up at my door to hand out pamphlets to try and convince me that their is no higher power...
I have had more experiences in The Grand Canyon and Valley of Fire that seemed like what some call 'spiritual' than in any church. To each their own.

I heard someone say that a couple of Mormons placed a pamphlet next to their front door and the person left it there. Not long after, a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses showed up and he happened to be home, so he invited them in. At one point, he looked out and saw that the pamphlet was gone, so he asked if the JH had taken it. They had, so he gave gave them a hard time for it and took it back.

One of the things I don't like is one group disliking other groups, even though they call themselves by the general name. An aunt had no use for anyone who wasn't Catholic and I could never grasp that.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Why the "lighten up"? I wasn't yelling at the screen as I typed that and it wasn't all caps. I was just responding to your post.

Atheists should have the same protections enjoyed by the other religions but if someone who's a real zealot gets into power and wants to force their ideals on others, that could change.
I think these guys are trying just that.

"The ACLU of New Jersey threatened legal action against the Neptune school district after an attendee at last year’s graduation ceremony took offense to the building’s religious symbols and Christian-based references -- among them a 20-foot white cross above the auditorium’s entrance. The ACLU asked the school to remove or cover up the cross and three other religious signs, arguing their visibility during a public school event is a First Amendment violation."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/17/aclu-threatens-legal-action-nj-high-school-amendment-dispute/

Read the link to get the full picture. This venue has been made available to the school at no cost for the entire duration of the ceremonies there. And, local lore (and some other article) has it that that one attendee was a guest of a graduate.

They did reach a compromise, but the fact that these bastisches would hold an entire graduating class hostage shows what hateful types of people they are.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/26/new-jersey-high-school-aclu-compromise-grnew-jersey-school-aclu-compromise/
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
What's going on in Oregon with those bakers is a prime example; stripped of both their freedom to practice religion and free speech in one swell foop.

Freedoms aren't absolute. And some things can't be protected by separation of Church and State.

The bakers aren't allowed to discriminate on race (a biological condition) and now they aren't allowed to discriminate based on sexual orientation (a biological condition).

They find themselves, and rightly so, in the hot seat.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
The bakers aren't allowed to discriminate on race (a biological condition) and now they aren't allowed to discriminate based on sexual orientation (a biological condition).
Read further down the thread. ...and follow the link provided. You'll see they weren't discriminated against because of their "biological condition".

And, nowhere in the Constitution, or the bill of rights, is the separation of church and state mentioned. Get yer history straight. But, the first amendment DOES say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think these guys are trying just that.

"The ACLU of New Jersey threatened legal action against the Neptune school district after an attendee at last year’s graduation ceremony took offense to the building’s religious symbols and Christian-based references -- among them a 20-foot white cross above the auditorium’s entrance. The ACLU asked the school to remove or cover up the cross and three other religious signs, arguing their visibility during a public school event is a First Amendment violation."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/17/aclu-threatens-legal-action-nj-high-school-amendment-dispute/

Read the link to get the full picture. This venue has been made available to the school at no cost for the entire duration of the ceremonies there. And, local lore (and some other article) has it that that one attendee was a guest of a graduate.

They did reach a compromise, but the fact that these bastisches would hold an entire graduating class hostage shows what hateful types of people they are.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/26/new-jersey-high-school-aclu-compromise-grnew-jersey-school-aclu-compromise/
I'm tired of tiny groups being allowed to force the vast majority to change. That person could have said they didn't want to go because of the religious objects, but they felt so self-important that they couldn't see how much of an inconvenience they are.

If civil rights are at stake, I don't have a problem with a lot of what the ACLU does but when one person is offended, that one person should just go away as long as nothing truly terrible isn't going to happen.

Are you familiar with the bumper stickers with "The more I know about people, the more I like my truck"? Or their dog, cat, etc.

That. In light of the fact that someone I know had to put her dog down yesterday, people like these turds really annoy me.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I'm tired of tiny groups being allowed to force the vast majority to change. That person could have said they didn't want to go because of the religious objects, but they felt so self-important that they couldn't see how much of an inconvenience they are.

If civil rights are at stake, I don't have a problem with a lot of what the ACLU does but when one person is offended, that one person should just go away as long as nothing truly terrible isn't going to happen.
I know, it's so annoying when minorities expect to be treated with respect and access to their constitutional rights when it's inconvenient. You know, WTF?, most of us are Christians, and the US was founded by Christians, and most of us are comfortable with crosses and other Christian symbols, and this is a 70-year tradition, so all of you Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and any atheists brave enough to reveal themselves, STFU and leave us in the majority alone!

Yes, I'm turning the contrast way up for the sake of humor, but this wasn't like going to a church for a Methodist wedding, this was a public school graduation ceremony. Personally, if I had been there I wouldn't have said a thing no matter what I was thinking, but I can see where some sensitive folks and the ACLU think government bodies should be role models about the constitution and US laws, so they press issues seemingly unimportant to the majority. Like whether or not the Confederate flag should be flown by state governments. I grew up in a place where a mixed marriage was a Catholic and a Protestant, so perhaps I'm a little jaded, but I understand the sentiment.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'm tired of tiny groups being allowed to force the vast majority to change.
How did you get tired out by that? How has it inconvenienced you to exhaustion on a personal level?
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Nope, Federal law trumps state and local laws every time. No exceptions, ever. Where things get fuzzy is when the feds decide not to enforce a law, and the states make something legal in state law that is illegal in federal law. For example, using pot is legal in Washington, but it is still illegal federally. The feds have just decided not to chase after those horrid criminals getting stoned in Washington.

In fact, federal authority in the US is so great that the USG can condemn state and local government property if they so choose. Constitutional authority + armed forces = do it or else. :)
Good clarification, thanks.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
A debate or interpretation of "rights" is different than enforcement of a "law", except maybe in some ambiguous situations. But when the law is clear, how is it that some law enforcement agency chooses to ignore it?

I understand not arresting somebody for jaywalking, not arresting a wino in Detroit or somebody smoking a joint in Central Park. There is a point at which resources are simply not available to handle everything. But I don't think that's the case with Sanctuary Cities or states with "legalized" pot... or is it?

If it's a case of resources, shouldn't we be hearing pleas from the cities and states for help? If it's a case of resources, why should the fed govt get mad when a state uses their own resources to help? I don't really care whether you support a particular position or not. I do care about cities, states and the fed simply choosing to ignore a law because they don't agree with it. That, if played out to its extreme, becomes complete anarchy. Right?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I know, it's so annoying when minorities expect to be treated with respect and access to their constitutional rights when it's inconvenient. You know, WTF?, most of us are Christians, and the US was founded by Christians, and most of us are comfortable with crosses and other Christian symbols, and this is a 70-year tradition, so all of you Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and any atheists brave enough to reveal themselves, STFU and leave us in the majority alone!

Yes, I'm turning the contrast way up for the sake of humor, but this wasn't like going to a church for a Methodist wedding, this was a public school graduation ceremony. Personally, if I had been there I wouldn't have said a thing no matter what I was thinking, but I can see where some sensitive folks and the ACLU think government bodies should be role models about the constitution and US laws, so they press issues seemingly unimportant to the majority. Like whether or not the Confederate flag should be flown by state governments. I grew up in a place where a mixed marriage was a Catholic and a Protestant, so perhaps I'm a little jaded, but I understand the sentiment.
My point is that a small group gets all verklempt about something that's not actually hurting them, like the graduation ceremony, so they bring in the ACLU or some other legal beagle, to force a change to their liking. I'm not referring to racial, ethnic or religious minorities being oppressed, discriminated against, rounded up for internment camps, etc. However, if some small group decides to wage some kind of battle against our way of life because they want sweeping change for all of us when not all of us want those changes and major shifts will cause all kinds of disruptions and stagnation of the economy & normal government operations, I have a problem with that. Change for the sake of change isn't a good way to operate.

WRT the bakery in Oregon- they have been fined $135K- how did they decide on that amount and now that they have driven the bakery owners out of business, the State says they'll slap a lien on the couple's home if they don't pay. OK, they closed their shop in Sept, 2013- it's likely that they CAN'T pay and they have few options. They also have two young kids, their car has been vandalized, they have received threats and they have received a ton of bad press. The woman who went to the shop to place an order could have gone to a different bakery, eventually getting over the refusal. Who has been hurt more? I'm looking at the details, not making a statement about the brides who couldn't have a cake from this bakery and don't read anything into this.

Used to be that anyone who was seen as different, was driven out of town, or killed. Since people have shown that, as a large group, we aren't as smart as we think, we need laws to keep some from killing and doing other stupid things to each other. Sure, we have made great technological advances but humanity has taken a back seat. I used to hear "If you're angry, count to ten before doing anything", kids used to have a saying about "Sticks and stones", we used to say "Live and let live" and Kennedy "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

When the Federal government moves to eliminate state powers, we're all in trouble.

You had Catholics marrying Protestants? What kind of hippie commune was that? :D
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, I'm turning the contrast way up for the sake of humor, but this wasn't like going to a church for a Methodist wedding, this was a public school graduation ceremony. Personally, if I had been there I wouldn't have said a thing no matter what I was thinking, but I can see where some sensitive folks and the ACLU think government bodies should be role models about the constitution and US laws, so they press issues seemingly unimportant to the majority. Like whether or not the Confederate flag should be flown by state governments. I grew up in a place where a mixed marriage was a Catholic and a Protestant, so perhaps I'm a little jaded, but I understand the sentiment.
A public school celebration that, for over 60 years, has been hosted at no charge by a large Methodist based venue. That this "one un-named person (was there really one to begin with?)" would play this game with a class of graduating seniors who had no other option and an organization who, for the last 60 years, has hosted this ceremony with no complaints from anyone can't help but turn my feelings towards atheists to that akin to drinking spoiled milk. Mean spirited bullies and the ACLU is no better.

And, again, there is no mention of the church and state being separate in the constitution or bill of rights. Why do so many think this?

As long as we're talking about the constitution and bill of rights, where does it say that one has the right to not be offended?
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How did you get tired out by that? How has it inconvenienced you to exhaustion on a personal level?
The same way seeing a cross at a graduation ceremony ruined that guest's life- it didn't, but like them, I said it did. That's my point- people are too willing to take some things personally, when it couldn't have been. If the committee that organized the ceremony had known the guest would be attending and changed the venue specifically so they could offend, THAT would be a problem.

When a Black deli worker at a grocery store ignores me and waits on another Black person as if I didn't exist, and it does happen, I don't like it, but I do understand that they may be making a quiet statement. Or not. I don't know what they're thinking and in the grand scheme of things, it's not hurting me enough to complain about it. I also didn't like it when a different deli worker asked what I wanted while a Black man had been waiting longer and had been standing in front of that deli worker and the deli guy was right there while I was being helped. Did he space out? Maybe. Do I think that's the reason he got it wrong? Not really. Again, I don't know what he was thinking.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
And, speaking of the ACLU, it's using a recent court case to advance their agenda, which has been thinly veiled all thee years.

"In the wake of the Obergefell v. Hodges ruling by the Supreme Court, which asserted that there is a constitutional right to gay marriage (specifically states must recognize marriage licenses between two people of the same sex that were issued out-of-state, or in any jurisdiction of the country), the American Civil Liberties Union is no longer going to support federal religious freedom laws."

Isn't that part of their job? Apparently not.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/06/28/aclu-were-not-defending-religious-freedom-laws-anymore-n2018582

so, there you have it folks, a giant "FU" to religion. You HAVE no right to a defense, but we'll take you down at every opportunity we can manufacture.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A public school celebration that, for over 60 years, has been hosted at no charge by a large Methodist based venue. That this "one un-named person (was there really one to begin with?)" would play this game with a class of graduating seniors who had no other option and an organization who, for the last 60 years, has hosted this ceremony with no complaints from anyone can't help but turn my feelings towards atheists to that akin to drinking spoiled milk. Mean spirited bullies and the ACLU is no better.

And, again, there is no mention of the church and state being separate in the constitution or bill of rights. Why do so many think this?

As long as we're talking about the constitution and bill of rights, where does it say that one has the right to not be offended?
I often wonder why atheists are so adamant about their belief and why they're so willing to go to court about how they're so offended. I'm not religious, but was raised Catholic. I don't practice a religion, but have no problem if someone wants to. The problem I have is that Atheists want to force their ways on others and it's a lot like the Dark Ages, when the inquisitions were going on, in reverse.

NSFW or children, starts at 4:52-

 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
the American Civil Liberties Union is no longer going to support federal religious freedom laws."

Isn't that part of their job? Apparently not.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/06/28/aclu-were-not-defending-religious-freedom-laws-anymore-n2018582

so, there you have it folks, a giant "FU" to religion. You HAVE no right to a defense, but we'll take you down at every opportunity we can manufacture.
So much for "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Apparently, the ACLU speaks for the whole country AND the US Federal government.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
But when the law is clear, how is it that some law enforcement agency chooses to ignore it?
In the cases you're discussing, political will is an important factor to consider. What is politically expedient at the federal level may be political suicide at the state/local level. Taking pot as an example, some states have voted to remove laws criminalizing pot from the books. Now consider the position of the local authorities: yes, technically pot is still a Schedule I drug per the Feds. OTOH, if they ignore the voice of the people that put them into office and continue cracking down on marijuana, what does that do to their re-election odds?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
A public school celebration that, for over 60 years, has been hosted at no charge by a large Methodist based venue. That this "one un-named person (was there really one to begin with?)" would play this game with a class of graduating seniors who had no other option and an organization who, for the last 60 years, has hosted this ceremony with no complaints from anyone can't help but turn my feelings towards atheists to that akin to drinking spoiled milk. Mean spirited bullies and the ACLU is no better.

And, again, there is no mention of the church and state being separate in the constitution or bill of rights. Why do so many think this?

As long as we're talking about the constitution and bill of rights, where does it say that one has the right to not be offended?
It's the 1st Amendment argument you brought up earlier. The venue in this case being interpreted as the government establishing a state religion. Yeah, it's an interpretation, but so are many other important rulings. Like Roe v Wade. You really have to squint on that one.

As for the right not be offended, that is exactly what anti-discrimination laws are intended to prevent, and the Sweet Cakes ruling you're in a bundle about falls in that category.

How would you feel if that graduation ceremony was held in a synagogue or a mosque?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I often wonder why atheists are so adamant about their belief and why they're so willing to go to court about how they're so offended. I'm not religious, but was raised Catholic. I don't practice a religion, but have no problem if someone wants to. The problem I have is that Atheists want to force their ways on others and it's a lot like the Dark Ages, when the inquisitions were going on, in reverse.
No, atheists (unrealistically in the US, IMO) want government agencies to stop forcing religion on them. In the process of that debate, people who like religion in public institutions think that atheists are trying to tell them how to live.

And, speaking of the ACLU, it's using a recent court case to advance their agenda, which has been thinly veiled all thee years.

"In the wake of the Obergefell v. Hodges ruling by the Supreme Court, which asserted that there is a constitutional right to gay marriage (specifically states must recognize marriage licenses between two people of the same sex that were issued out-of-state, or in any jurisdiction of the country), the American Civil Liberties Union is no longer going to support federal religious freedom laws."

Isn't that part of their job? Apparently not.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2015/06/28/aclu-were-not-defending-religious-freedom-laws-anymore-n2018582

so, there you have it folks, a giant "FU" to religion. You HAVE no right to a defense, but we'll take you down at every opportunity we can manufacture.
Not at all. As a big fan of the ACLU they are defenders of an individual's ability to practice religion; they just want religious messages and artifacts out of the government domain. BTW, the ACLU is just another non-profit organization. It doesn't have a job, it has an agenda.

The ACLU's religious freedom stance is right on their web page:

The ACLU strives to safeguard the First Amendment’s guarantee of religious liberty by ensuring that laws and governmental practices neither promote religion nor interfere with its free exercise.
 
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