The Yamaha A-S500 Review & Bench Test. Putting To Silence The Doubters & Skeptics

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
From what I read about it, it is not anything like Audyssey DEQ. I don't think I would use it.
What did you read that led you to decide it would not be beneficial (or a liability)?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What did you read that led you to decide it would not be beneficial (or a liability)?
This:

"Speaking of power, I did discover one hiccup with the design of the Yamaha A-S500, which is that if you are using the loudness control, depending on the settings of the loudness control and the volume control, you may find that if you turn the Pure Direct switch on, you’re suddenly blasting your speakers at very high volume level. If this happens, quickly press the Pure Direct button again (to prevent possible damage to your speakers) then turn the loudness control off and the volume down before again pressing the Pure Direct button. Although this is annoying, it’s unfortunately an unavoidable side-effect if you want the convenience of having both a usefully adjustable loudness control and a means of defeating all the tone control circuitry. In practise, I’d suggest that to avoid this problem you always rotate the loudness control back to the 12 o’clock position whenever you stop listening to music."

It's from the review linked in post#1, the one you wouldn't take credit for.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
My 11 years old Denon AVR-3805 seems to sound as good as my A21. I plotted graphs with the Umik-1 and REW to confirm that the graphs for all combinations including 3805 all by itself, 3805 preout+A21, CA 840E preamp+A21 etc., looks virtually the same. Same enough that they practically sit on top of each other such that you can only see one trace.

I did also have an AVR-1912 briefly and I remember it sounded acceptably good at my listening level too. Certainly no "drastic" difference, not like the difference between speakers. Assuming you did volume match the two systems and kept everything else the same, then I have no idea why you heard drastic difference between your 2313 and the P5/A23. I only hear drastic difference between my speakers. There seem to be audible differences between electronics in my systems, but the differences are not significant enough for me to pay too much attention any more.

From what I read about it, it is not anything like Audyssey DEQ. I don't think I would use it.
I didn't use Audyssey or any of the other sonic processing and I specifically avoided using any tone control with the Denon before switching to the Parasound because I didn't want to make ridiculous comparisons.

I never expected the differences I hear to be as noticeable but I also never felt the impact or heard the sense of space I do now, either. Changes in stereo imaging/sound stage isn't something I expect to see on REW or anything like that, although I also don't have an easy way to compare the response of raw recorded tracks to the final mix- some of the controls on a mixer or in ProTools allow panning, effects and EQ.

However, I have to ask- if there's no difference between amplifiers, what's the point of making a different one, using a different circuit or topology? Clearly, an amplifier that can handle difficult loads will do SOMETHING different from an amp that struggles to maintain its output voltage. A guitar amp that's pushed to tube saturation will often sound like the treble has been turned down and that's very different from what happens with a solid state amp- it's one of the reasons some people like SS over tubes, but it's also one of the reasons some like tubes- the sound can be a bit "softer".
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I didn't use Audyssey or any of the other sonic processing and I specifically avoided using any tone control with the Denon before switching to the Parasound because I didn't want to make ridiculous comparisons.
I have read enough of your posts to know you would not make ridiculous comparison and assumed you would have used pure direct while keeping everything else equal, such as volume, source etc.

I never expected the differences I hear to be as noticeable but I also never felt the impact or heard the sense of space I do now, either. Changes in stereo imaging/sound stage isn't something I expect to see on REW or anything like that, although I also don't have an easy way to compare the response of raw recorded tracks to the final mix- some of the controls on a mixer or in ProTools allow panning, effects and EQ.
I am sure there are ways to find out why you heard the drastic difference. I would, but I enjoy playing with things as much as actually listening to music.:D Most people may not be so crazy.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I never expected the differences I hear to be as noticeable but I also never felt the impact or heard the sense of space I do now, either.
What speakers are you running? I think that is often the factor - speakers that present a difficult load to a receiver and appreciate the extra capabilities of a rigorous amp. Or the size of the room pushes the demand up to near the receiver's limit.

...also, it's not as if we would know from the manufacturer's published spec's that a speaker presents a difficult load. The impedance and sensitivity specs seem to be made up BS as often as not.
 
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lifestyle

lifestyle

Audioholic
What speakers are you running? I think that is often the factor - speakers that present a difficult load to a receiver and appreciate the extra capabilities of a rigorous amp. Or the size of the room pushes the demand up to near the receiver's limit.

...also, it's not as if we would know from the manufacturer's published spec's a speaker presents a difficult load. They seem to be made up BS as often as not.
Who's that question to?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I enjoy playing with things as much as actually listening to music.:D
I like it best when the woman "plays with things" while I am listening to music, but to each his own!


(Sorry, I tried to resist...held out maybe 3 seconds!)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
What speakers are you running? I think that is often the factor - speakers that present a difficult load to a receiver and appreciate the extra capabilities of a rigorous amp. Or the size of the room pushes the demand up to near the receiver's limit.

...also, it's not as if we would know from the manufacturer's published spec's that a speaker presents a difficult load. The impedance and sensitivity specs seem to be made up BS as often as not.
The room isn't large, I rarely push the system for more than a couple of minutes (I need my ears to do my job and I find that I have more credibility when customers ask about the sound of their system and I DON'T answer with "Huh?"). I did crank Stevie Ray's version of Voodoo Chile, from Couldn't Stand The Weather soon after getting the Parasound- that AVR NEVER sounded like that.

I built my speakers and have done impedance tests with the WT3, from Parts Express- the woofers are Peerless 830874 and tweeters are Peerless 812687- Dr Mark helped with the crossovers.

Woofer specs-
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1090-peerless-830874-specifications.pdf

Tweeter specs-
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/277-410-peerless-specifications-44809.pdf
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I like it best when the woman "plays with things" while I am listening to music, but to each his own!


(Sorry, I tried to resist...held out maybe 3 seconds!)
How can you possibly listen critically when that's happening? :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For clarity, things = ELECTRONICS, SPEAKERS, SOURCE MEDIA, MEDIA PLAYERS.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The room isn't large, I rarely push the system for more than a couple of minutes (I need my ears to do my job and I find that I have more credibility when customers ask about the sound of their system and I DON'T answer with "Huh?"). I did crank Stevie Ray's version of Voodoo Chile, from Couldn't Stand The Weather soon after getting the Parasound- that AVR NEVER sounded like that.

I built my speakers and have done impedance tests with the WT3, from Parts Express- the woofers are Peerless 830874 and tweeters are Peerless 812687- Dr Mark helped with the crossovers.

Woofer specs-
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/264-1090-peerless-830874-specifications.pdf

Tweeter specs-
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/277-410-peerless-specifications-44809.pdf
Those shouldn't be considered hard to drive. If you sit 3.2 meters, SPL drops 10 dB, say you have 2 dB room gain so you have a net loss of 8 dB. Let's now assume your drivers in the box resulted in an overall sensitivity of 88 dB/M/2.83V and nominal impedance of 8 ohms, then you are getting 80 dB per watt. Further assume you lose another 3 dB (effectively) due to phase angle issues and whatever other factors, you should still end up with around 77 dB per watt.

Now if you regularly listen to SPL of 70 to 75 dB, the 2311 should still give you about 20 dB of headroom for dynamic swings but if you regularly listen at 80 to 85 dB and occasionally crank beyond that then the 2311 will run out of gas, probably will sound compressed depending on the kind of music, even if not distorted. Whether the resulted sound quality difference will be "drastic" or not could just be a matter of definitions. What you considered drastic I may still consider minor. Surely there could well be many other factors but power requirement is a good place to start especially when you are comparing an entry level 7.1 AVR to a mid range 2 channel power amp that has an over sized power supply in it.

lifestyle: Sorry we digressed, but please make sure you have enough power for your needs.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Those shouldn't be considered hard to drive. If you sit 3.2 meters, SPL drops 10 dB, say you have 2 dB room gain so you have a net loss of 8 dB. Let's now assume your drivers in the box resulted in an overall sensitivity of 88 dB/M/2.83V and nominal impedance of 8 ohms, then you are getting 80 dB per watt. Further assume you lose another 3 dB (effectively) due to phase angle issues and whatever other factors, you should still end up with around 77 dB per watt.

Now if you regularly listen to SPL of 70 to 75 dB, the 2311 should still give you about 20 dB of headroom for dynamic swings but if you regularly listen at 80 to 85 dB and occasionally crank beyond that then the 2311 will run out of gas, probably will sound compressed depending on the kind of music, even if not distorted. Whether the resulted sound quality difference will be "drastic" or not could just be a matter of definitions. What you considered drastic I may still consider minor. Surely there could well be many other factors but power requirement is a good place to start especially when you are comparing an entry level 7.1 AVR to a mid range 2 channel power amp that has an over sized power supply in it.

lifestyle: Sorry we digressed, but please make sure you have enough power for your needs.
I'm about 12' from the speakers, my typical maximum listening level with the 2313 was around -20 with no source level boost and no EQ. The volume control on my preamp is usually at about 9:00 with no tone controls being used. I know the sound of a system that's under-powered- the Denon should have had no problem with that and my line voltage doesn't sag- I have checked it many times. I have also used REW, my SPL meter and iPhone app to check the SPL in this room and it was rarely above 90dB. I have used the iPhone app at our Summerfest, which is a big music festival, and I know people who have worked there- they're told to keep the SPL at/below 95dB, but they tend to boost the low end because the meters are weighted. When I'm in that kind of environment, I ALWAYS wear ear plugs and trust me- it's never that loud here.

When I set up AVRs, mostly Denon, I set the maximum output at -10dB because I know that if people can crank it to WOT, they will. Might not be intentional, but it can and does happen. I don't remember the last time a customer called about dead tweeters in a system I installed. I replaced a Monitor Audio tweeter for someone before I did anything else to his system and that went away because he was using the Zone 2 output from his AVR for his living room speakers, which wasn't limited and was operating beyond the capability of the amplifier.

Your calculations are for one speaker- a second speaker receiving equal power adds 6dB and if the reference for sensitivity is measured at 1 meter, it would drop by 6dB at 2 meters in a non-reverberant field. In a semi-reverberant field it drops less because of, as you mentioned, room gain.

I'm not new to this stuff- I have worked selling, listening and choosing audio equipment for almost 40 years, in residential, commercial and mobile. I have judged car audio contests many times, built many audio systems that not only won or placed well in their power class (sound quality was where the contests were most heavily weighted) and when I see past customers, they mention these systems. One of the compliments I have received many times has to do with getting better sound from low powered systems than other people they knew, who were also in the business. When I did car audio, I would ask the owners for an oscilloscope for making sure the amplifier(s) didn't clip at high levels, but they never saw the value in it. I also did live sound in the past and received compliments on the sound. Well, when the guitar players weren't so loud that I couldn't balance the sound, anyway.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay highfigh, base on the info you provided in the last post we can rule out power being the reason. Yes my calculations were based on only one speaker, thanks for pointing that out.

By the way, I do know you are not new to this stuff and that you know your stuff. Actually that's the main reason why I am so curious about your findings.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I never expected the differences I hear to be as noticeable but I also never felt the impact or heard the sense of space I do now, either. Changes in stereo imaging/sound stage isn't something I expect to see on REW or anything like that, although I also don't have an easy way to compare the response of raw recorded tracks to the final mix- some of the controls on a mixer or in ProTools allow panning, effects and EQ.

However, I have to ask- if there's no difference between amplifiers, what's the point of making a different one, using a different circuit or topology? Clearly, an amplifier that can handle difficult loads will do SOMETHING different from an amp that struggles to maintain its output voltage. A guitar amp that's pushed to tube saturation will often sound like the treble has been turned down and that's very different from what happens with a solid state amp- it's one of the reasons some people like SS over tubes, but it's also one of the reasons some like tubes- the sound can be a bit "softer".
Were these tests performed under blind observations within several minutes as we all know that the accuracy of auditory memory is something horribly inaccurate. Couple innacurate hearing memory with sighted tests and one gets a receipe for biased observations no matter if there is a dog in the race or not.

I don't doubt for a moment that SS amps will sound differently from one another when pushed beyond their designed operational limits (ie pushing the power envelope) . However, I have a hard time swallowing that amps will sound that drastically different when operating well within their power envelope.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
3db, unlike yours, his 2311 was an entry level AVR, and Demon might have gone too cheap on that model.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Were these tests performed under blind observations within several minutes as we all know that the accuracy of auditory memory is something horribly inaccurate. Couple innacurate hearing memory with sighted tests and one gets a receipe for biased observations no matter if there is a dog in the race or not.

I don't doubt for a moment that SS amps will sound differently from one another when pushed beyond their designed operational limits (ie pushing the power envelope) . However, I have a hard time swallowing that amps will sound that drastically different when operating well within their power envelope.
I wasn't hoping for a big difference, I wasn't expecting and I wasn't trying to hear a difference as a way to justify the cost of the equipment and I know that it wasn't an unbiased test, but as someone who has played guitar for almost 50 years and can identify a lot of guitar amps without seeing them, it is possible to hear differences, even though the equipment is visible. Not saying I have super-human hearing or memory, but I do have sensitive hearing ability and excellent long-term memory.

As I also commented before, I think most of the difference comes from the DAC and preamp, not the amp. The headroom and dynamics come from that.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
3db, unlike yours, his 2311 was an entry level AVR, and Demon might have gone too cheap on that model.
It's a 2313CI, not the three digit model, so it's not entry level- it had five models below it. Still, it's not the AVR-3313CI, 4313CI, or 4520CI.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I wasn't hoping for a big difference, I wasn't expecting and I wasn't trying to hear a difference as a way to justify the cost of the equipment and I know that it wasn't an unbiased test, but as someone who has played guitar for almost 50 years and can identify a lot of guitar amps without seeing them, it is possible to hear differences, even though the equipment is visible. Not saying I have super-human hearing or memory, but I do have sensitive hearing ability and excellent long-term memory.

As I also commented before, I think most of the difference comes from the DAC and preamp, not the amp. The headroom and dynamics come from that.
Maybe your hearing is above average. Its not that it's impossible seeing that Chuck Yeager had vision that was 40/20 . :)
 

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