Integrated amplifier with USB input and subwoofer out?

[agarwalro]

I'm not the biggest fan of computer audio controls as I prefer to have immediate access to physical tone controls if need be. As you probably know, not all source recordings will have optimal tone regardless of what the artist intended (I am a purist but up to a certain point). For example electronic music often has the bass and/or treble turned all the way up which can be (occasionally) displeasing to the ear.. A quick way to adjust these frequencies would be preferable.

I can see that. Perfectly justified reason for having physical controls.

Lastly, is there an advantage to having active speakers vs passive? I was under the impression that passive was better since it does away with all of the numerous and possibly extraneous components necessary to drive it, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I was coming from the viewpoint that it would save desk space and needless clutter. Especially something like the A2+ would be a good minimalist approach.

There are pros and cons to both active vs passive approaches. Both when implemented properly will not detract from faithful sound reproduction.

Taking a total budget of $1000, the Yamaha S300 checks all the boxes, http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamas300bl/yamaha-a-s300-integrated-stereo-amplifier/1.html and the RBH MC4C speakers, http://www.audioholics.com./bookshelf-speaker-reviews/rbh-mc4c would be a killer setup.

 

[jetsetter439]

I was coming from the viewpoint that it would save desk space and needless clutter. Especially something like the A2+ would be a good minimalist approach.

Space is actually a big concern for me, however I had factored in the inclusion of an integrated amp primarily due to my requirement of quick access to tone controls as I've gotten used to with my Onkyo.

As for speakers, these are the ones I'm looking to get: http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/series=millenia/model=milleniaone-2.0-system/page=overview

Taking a total budget of $1000, the Yamaha S300 checks all the boxes, http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamas300bl/yamaha-a-s300-integrated-stereo-amplifier/1.html and the RBH MC4C speakers, http://www.audioholics.com./bookshelf-speaker-reviews/rbh-mc4c would be a killer setup.

Excellent suggestion! I had come across that one earlier and it looked very promising, however does not seem to contain a built-in DAC nor optical input to accommodate the straight digital connection from soundcard to amplifier that I'd be making. I am under the impression that either a built-in or external DAC would be necessary to satisfy the analog conversion here?

 

[agarwalro]

I just realized to get Optical and Coax inputs you will need the Yamaha S301. Sorry about the confusion from the earlier link.

 

[jetsetter439]

I will probably end up going with the Yamaha S501, but possibly the 301. I also wonder if these are the only two reasonably priced models that support this seemingly basic feature set of built in DAC, optical in, sub out and tone controls. As I've come across some very cool slimline integrateds however they seem to either be $5,000, have only RCA connetions and/or don't have tone controls. Is there a reason they are all so minimalist? Are physical control knobs too analog or something?

I'd also be curious whether optical is a potentially better or worse connection option than direct USB.

 

[agarwalro]

The difference of 25W per channel is negligible in real life performance. Everything else seems identical on paper. Save on the electronics and instead get better speakers.

Coax, optical or USB will be identical in terms of getting the signal to your amp. Use whichever is most convenient.

 

[jetsetter439]

Thanks agar. That makes sense.

May I ask you now whether it makes much of a difference in having a dedicated line for subwoofer out versus RCA plugs? I may not be opposed to removing this from my "ideal" feature set if there's absolutely no difference in quality/fidelity between the two connection options (RCA vs dedicated).

And also, any benefits (or drawbacks) to an active sub versus passive in your mind?

Trust that I have done research on much of this however opinions are extremely varied.

 

[agarwalro]

If by dedicated line you mean a Subwoofer Out, on the AV processor this makes sense if bass management is not possible in the sub amp or you will be listening to tracks with the LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1, 7.1, etc.).

If the subwoofer amp is capable of setting the crossover and stereo tracks with added sub is the goal, RCA pre-outs for LR are more than sufficient. In the Yamaha S301/500 case, I believe the Subwoofer Out is simply a summed L, R. The manual does not say if the output has a bass filter.

Functionality, there is no difference between active and passive subs. Both approaches have their pros and cons.

 

[jetsetter439]

Hi agar,

Pardon my ignorance, but I am not sure whether I'd be listening to tracks with the LFE channel. What type of setup would involve the use of this channel?

I am mainly interested in the Paradigms here: http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=bookshelf/model=milleniaone-2.0-system/page=overview
^ I can't, for the life of me, seem to figure out if these are powered or passive

There is also a fully-powered "Compact Theater" version which includes a sub. However I could swear that I saw in a Youtube review that the "CT" version has slightly downgraded internals than the standalone pair. I wonder if that's true and I've contacted the manufacturer as well.

 

[KEW]

I believe there is a tremendous advantage to having sub & amp as part of the same package. If you drive the sub hard, a well designed amplified sub will simply limit the SPL to prevent damage. If you are choosing the amp, you might choose too weak (which would cause clipping which is bad for speaker); or you might choose too much power (which could blow the driver).
Stick with a package where the amp is designed (spec'ed) to work with the sub. Whether the amp is physically located inside the cabinet doesn't really matter so much.

 

[agarwalro]

If you are choosing the amp, you might choose too weak (which would cause clipping which is bad for speaker); or you might choose too much power (which could blow the driver).

That's operator error and not a weakness of the Passive approach .

Stick with a package where the amp is designed (spec'ed) to work with the sub. Whether the amp is physically located inside the cabinet doesn't really matter so much.

+1.

 

[agarwalro]

I am not sure whether I'd be listening to tracks with the LFE channel. What type of setup would involve the use of this channel?

Mostly movie discs and some concert/music discs. Any regular CD or streaming music will be stereo (as in, without the LFE channel).

I am mainly interested in the Paradigms here: http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=bookshelf/model=milleniaone-2.0-system/page=overview
^ I can't, for the life of me, seem to figure out if these are powered or passive

Those are passive. Man, for the $500 asking price you can do a lot, I mean, a LOT better.

 

[oqpi]

Hello Audioholics,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've been doing loads of research on integrated amplifiers based on what I feel to be a pretty simple set of criteria however I'm having trouble finding one that fits my needs at a halfway decent price point.

I would like to know if anyone has any recommendations based upon the below desired features. Please pardon the layman terminology

• USB connection, as opposed to soundcard connection
• Subwoofer output capability (preferably a dedicated output)
• Bass/treble/balance controls
• Relatively affordable (under $800)

I plan on using it with Paradigm Millenia One speakers and a subwoofer for mostly desktop listening. While I don't plan to crank the volume too much, having decent volume capability is important. Size was also a consideration when looking for speakers. I am about 90% sold on the Millenia Ones but would also be open to recommendations here as well.

Any and all input is appreciated, thanks!!

I did a fairly thorough research on the exact same subject as you.
The idea is to reach a full scale dynamics and frequency range with an affordable setup.
My research reached to Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver, that has the USB input and the subwoofer output.
The sub output is also filtered at 60 Hz, 80 Hz and 100 Hz, your choice. That is a very good crossover they got inside.
The amplifier section is very robust, delivering 100 W continuous, per channel, into 8 ohm speakers, or 160 W into 4 ohm speakers.
I use it with RX6 MA speakers, rated at 6 ohms and the sound is really good.
The USB I use mostly for YouTube material and it is CD player comparable, when I got HD video, could be even better.
The subwoofer output is connected to the Outlaw Ultra-X12 which takes care of everything under 100 Hz (or 80, or 60) and frees the power from the receiver's amplifier to have nice mids and highs into the floor stand speakers - the sound is really amazing because of that.
In case you decide to go with Outlaw receiver and subwoofer, I also recommend the $99 WYRD (from Schiit Audio) USB decrapifier, which will clean up your USB line, by establishing a perfect 5.00 Vdc voltage. That way the audio digital signal will travel unaltered along the USB line and the receiver's DAC will do the rest (very good DAC by the way too !)
That said, you do not need any external DAC to add.
I hope that helps.

 

[oqpi]

I was originally seeking a receiver actually however my research suggested that an integrated amplifier was the optimal choice. I can neither confirm nor deny this to be the case though : )

I just figured an improved connection from source file to speaker would be beneficial as my current sound configuration uses the rather low tech on-board audio from my motherboard, which gets split into my current Onkyo receiver and then out to a pair of bookshelf speakers.

I'm also trying to understand the digital vs analog thing in relation to signal transfer. You had mentioned that you use digital connections regularly with your equipment but also that the audio has to first be converted to analog in order to be heard from the speakers. I'm just curious where the signal gets converted to analog in your examples?

Overall I'm just not very convinced that my onboard audio is doing a very good job at optimizing the sound before it hits my ear.

YOu do not need any external DAC from your PC to the receiver

I'm not the biggest fan of computer audio controls as I prefer to have immediate access to physical tone controls if need be. As you probably know, not all source recordings will have optimal tone regardless of what the artist intended (I am a purist but up to a certain point). For example electronic music often has the bass and/or treble turned all the way up which can be (occasionally) displeasing to the ear.. A quick way to adjust these frequencies would be preferable.

Lastly, is there an advantage to having active speakers vs passive? I was under the impression that passive was better since it does away with all of the numerous and possibly extraneous components necessary to drive it, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I did a fairly thorough research on the exact same subject as you.
The idea is to reach a full scale dynamics and frequency range with an affordable setup.
My research reached to Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver, that has the USB input and the subwoofer output.
The sub output is also filtered at 60 Hz, 80 Hz and 100 Hz, your choice. That is a very good crossover they got inside.
The amplifier section is very robust, delivering 100 W continuous, per channel, into 8 ohm speakers, or 160 W into 4 ohm speakers.
I use it with RX6 MA speakers, rated at 6 ohms and the sound is really good.
The USB I use mostly for YouTube material and it is CD player comparable, when I got HD video, could be even better.
The subwoofer output is connected to the Outlaw Ultra-X12 Powered Subwoofer (very good sound and 350 W of power!) which takes care of everything under 100 Hz (or 80, or 60) and frees the power from the receiver's amplifier to have nice mids and highs into the floor stand speakers - the sound is really amazing because of that.
In case you decide to go with Outlaw receiver and subwoofer, I also recommend the $99 WYRD (from Schiit Audio) USB decrapifier, which will clean up your USB line, by establishing a perfect 5.00 Vdc voltage. That way the audio digital signal will travel unaltered along the USB line and the receiver's DAC will do the rest (very good DAC by the way too !)
That said, you do not need any external DAC to add.
I don't want to brag, but I'm an electronic engineer for over 30 years and I own several audio systems, starting 40 years ago.
This system with the Outlaw RR2150 at its core, is the newest I built, as I moved away recently. I still own the other systems at different locations.
I hope that helps.

 

[oqpi]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Adam, do you think I'd be fine then with a standalone soundcard of reasonable quality and thus able to bypass the need for a built-in DAC on the integrated amp? I'm certainly open to this.

I am also a bit curious what types of setups one would have which would necessitate the need for a built-in DAC, if most decent soundcards will do an adequate job of converting to analog?

I'm just trying to understand the different usage scenarios which might warrant one or the other. And still if there is a benefit to running the direct USB connection. So much to sort out!

My setup:
- Tascam C-200 CD player + Laptop with USB out as sources,
- WYRD (Schiit Audio) USB decrapifier in between the PC and Receiver's USB ports,
- Outlaw RR2150 Stereo Receiver (100 W into 8 ohms),
- Monitor Audio RX6 speakers (100 W, 6 ohms, 90 dB/1 W/1 m),
- Outlaw Ultra-X12 powered subwoofer (350 W)
https://picasaweb.google.com/109243130858369011279/BestAudioSystemThatHonestMoneyCanBuy?noredirect=1

 

[jetsetter439]

Mostly movie discs and some concert/music discs. Any regular CD or streaming music will be stereo (as in, without the LFE channel).



Those are passive. Man, for the $500 asking price you can do a lot, I mean, a LOT better.

Most folks seem to love them, however I am definitely open to suggestions. Thanks in advance.

 

[jetsetter439]

YOu do not need any external DAC from your PC to the receiver

I did a fairly thorough research on the exact same subject as you.
The idea is to reach a full scale dynamics and frequency range with an affordable setup.
My research reached to Outlaw RR2150 stereo receiver, that has the USB input and the subwoofer output.
The sub output is also filtered at 60 Hz, 80 Hz and 100 Hz, your choice. That is a very good crossover they got inside.
The amplifier section is very robust, delivering 100 W continuous, per channel, into 8 ohm speakers, or 160 W into 4 ohm speakers.
I use it with RX6 MA speakers, rated at 6 ohms and the sound is really good.
The USB I use mostly for YouTube material and it is CD player comparable, when I got HD video, could be even better.
The subwoofer output is connected to the Outlaw Ultra-X12 Powered Subwoofer (very good sound and 350 W of power!) which takes care of everything under 100 Hz (or 80, or 60) and frees the power from the receiver's amplifier to have nice mids and highs into the floor stand speakers - the sound is really amazing because of that.
In case you decide to go with Outlaw receiver and subwoofer, I also recommend the $99 WYRD (from Schiit Audio) USB decrapifier, which will clean up your USB line, by establishing a perfect 5.00 Vdc voltage. That way the audio digital signal will travel unaltered along the USB line and the receiver's DAC will do the rest (very good DAC by the way too !)
That said, you do not need any external DAC to add.
I don't want to brag, but I'm an electronic engineer for over 30 years and I own several audio systems, starting 40 years ago.
This system with the Outlaw RR2150 at its core, is the newest I built, as I moved away recently. I still own the other systems at different locations.
I hope that helps.

Oqpi, thanks so much for your excellent and informative responses! I had come across the Outlaw in my research & was a bit hesitant on the price. But damn, you basically sold it for me and the website description was rather convincing as well. I'll definitely keep it as an option next to the Yamaha A-S501.

I have another probably silly question though. Can I still use a receiver (or amp) if I end up going with powered speakers? As I'd still like to have the option to tweak bass/treble frequencies on occasion using "analog" controls. Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!!

 

[jetsetter439]

I believe there is a tremendous advantage to having sub & amp as part of the same package. If you drive the sub hard, a well designed amplified sub will simply limit the SPL to prevent damage. If you are choosing the amp, you might choose too weak (which would cause clipping which is bad for speaker); or you might choose too much power (which could blow the driver).
Stick with a package where the amp is designed (spec'ed) to work with the sub. Whether the amp is physically located inside the cabinet doesn't really matter so much.

KEW, appreciate the input. Are there any best practices in terms of reconciling the compatibility of amp and speaker specs? Need I examine much more than whether the speakers are capable of supporting the maximum amp wattage?

 

[agarwalro]

Most folks seem to love them, however I am definitely open to suggestions. Thanks in advance.

In no order,
NHT Classic Two
Audioengine P5
EmpTek R5Bi
Ascend Acoustics CMB170
SV Sound Prime Bookshelf

come to mind right away. I'm for others will have more suggestions.

 

[oqpi]

Oqpi, thanks so much for your excellent and informative responses! I had come across the Outlaw in my research & was a bit hesitant on the price. But damn, you basically sold it for me and the website description was rather convincing as well. I'll definitely keep it as an option next to the Yamaha A-S501.

I have another probably silly question though. Can I still use a receiver (or amp) if I end up going with powered speakers? As I'd still like to have the option to tweak bass/treble frequencies on occasion using "analog" controls. Please let me know your thoughts, thanks!!

Jetsetter, only the subwoofer is powered, as the Outlaw receiver has the sub output from its preamp; it is specially made to use a powered subwoofer.
The two front speakers are connected to the final amplifier of the receiver, just as you normally connect passive speakers, for the left and right channel. And yes, you can tweak bass/treble frequencies from the receiver. It also has 3 options of bass tweak points: 80, 65, 55 Hz.
I was also looking at Yamaha A-S701 receiver. I decided for Outlaw, because of the wonderful crossover for the Subwoofer, which has 3 options: 100, 80 and 60 Hz; Yamaha has only one, I think at 90 Hz.
I did not hear Yamaha, but I can tell that Outlaw sounds amazing, with a pair of good speakers and the Ultra-X12 sub, filtered at 100 Hz.
I do not believe Outlaw RR2150 and Ultra-X12 have any competition for the price.
And you also need the WYRD USB decrapifier, in order to use the USB digital input of the receiver; it brings the sound from YouTube up to CD level.
Happy to be of help.

 

[oqpi]

Hi agar,

Pardon my ignorance, but I am not sure whether I'd be listening to tracks with the LFE channel. What type of setup would involve the use of this channel?

I am mainly interested in the Paradigms here: http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=bookshelf/model=milleniaone-2.0-system/page=overview
^ I can't, for the life of me, seem to figure out if these are powered or passive

There is also a fully-powered "Compact Theater" version which includes a sub. However I could swear that I saw in a Youtube review that the "CT" version has slightly downgraded internals than the standalone pair. I wonder if that's true and I've contacted the manufacturer as well.

Always think of this: a good musical system can get you a good movie sound, but not viceversa.
I am watching movies on stereo, plus sub, setup for music and the sound is very real. And the music is great.
Also think of that: if you spend about the same amount of money for a stereo receiver with two speakers and for a 5, 7, or 11 channel receiver with 5, 7, or 11 speakers.... which would have a higher quality?
You should pay 5-10 times more for a multi-channel system to sound as fine as a stereo one.
The more the channels, the harder the design and execution: channel separation, power supply and capacitors inside need to be different. Have you seen a multi-channel receiver being 3-4-5 times heavier than a stereo? If not, then you will not have the proper quality of the power supply, final transistors, capacitors and heat sink. One cannot defy the laws of physics.
Result?... Multi-channel systems, at prices comparable with stereo systems, cannot come even close in sound quality.