DAC and internal soundcard?

[Jelle]

Hi guys,
I have been a lurker for quite some time now, but finally decided to ask you for help!

I have recently bought an Musical Fidelity M1 DAC at a bankruptcy auction, and new speakers. My PC is the most common source for my music playback, and obviously i'm going to hook it up to my new DAC. My motherboard (gigabyte Z77x3DH) has a S/PDIF output that is capable of 24bit/96kHz output. The DAC can up-sample the signal to 24bit/192kHz and, if i'm not mistaken, re clocks the whole signal.
Previously i have been thinking of getting an ASUS XONAR essence II soundcard, which is capable of 24/192kHz S/PDIF output. This soundcard will certainly have a better clock than my motherboard, thus creating less jitter, but it also re-clocks/upsamples the signal to 24/192kHz. I'm sure my DAC can do a better job at this than the internal soundcard, so my question is: does the initial up-sampling by the soundcard make the job easier for the DAC (since there will be less jitter anyways) or will the M1 DAC do a better job up-sampling a less modified signal from my current onboard soundcard?

I hope somebody has some insight!
Thanks,
Jelle

 

[Swerd]

Jelle – Welcome to Audioholics!

… so my question is: does the initial up-sampling by the (ASUS XONAR essence II) soundcard make the job easier for the (Musical Fidelity M1) DAC (since there will be less jitter anyways) or will the M1 DAC do a better job up-sampling a less modified signal from my current onboard soundcard?

There is third and IMO more likely possibility, that you will not hear a difference between the external Dac or the soundcard as you listen. Choose which ever method appeals most to you, and enjoy the music.

Among the things that people do agree make an audible difference, are the amount of digital compression (lack of lossiness) in the digital audio source, and the quality of the loudspeakers.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

so much incorrect info and wrong questions in OP's post:
If you want insight - start reading here:
https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

upsampling digital signal is similar to CSI "enhance" joke - it only works on TV

Get your head out of DACs stupid games and concentrate on the signal most important factor in sound reproduction - your speakers.

The SOLE and ONLY reason NOT to use onboard sound has nothing to do with bitrate or sample rates, but everything with EMI/RFI noise - if ether have it (very likely in PC environment) or your don't. If you're lucky sob and don't hear noises then hard-drive spins or move mouse or re-size large windows - then stick with on-board sound and sell the external dac to some sucker.

 

[slipperybidness]

so much incorrect info and wrong questions in previous post:
If you want insight - start reading here:
https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

upsampling digital signal is similar to CSI "enhance" joke - it only works on TV

Get your head out of DACs stupid games and concentrate on the signal most important factor in sound reproduction - your speakers.

The SOLE and ONLY reason NOT to use onboard sound has nothing to do with bitrate or sample rates, but everything with EMI/RFI noise - if ether have it (very likely in PC environment) or your don't. If you're lucky sob and don't hear noises then hard-drive spins or move mouse or re-size large windows - then stick with on-board sound and sell the external dac to some sucker.

+1

 

[Jelle]

Thanks for the replies guys!

so much incorrect info and wrong questions in previous post:
.

It is true that i am new to a lot of this, hence the reason i posted in this sub thread...

I've read the information, the whole 24/192 does seem like a lot of marketing bogus indeed!
Nevertheless, if i can get a 600$ DAC for less than a third of the price, it can only improve my less than stellar pc analogue output i use now i think.

I will definitely invest in good speakers, but that requires money that i do not have at the moment.

Thanks for the input!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks for the replies guys!



It is true that i am new to a lot of this, hence the reason i posted in this sub thread...

I've read the information, the whole 24/192 does seem like a lot of marketing bogus indeed!
Nevertheless, if i can get a 600$ DAC for less than a third of the price, it can only improve my less than stellar pc analogue output i use now i think.

I will definitely invest in good speakers, but that requires money that i do not have at the moment.

Thanks for the input!

Again, the value is relative. I bought a $150 external dac (see sig) for use with my pc, but I think it represents better value as it also serves as headphone amp and a pre-amp (volume control)
The reason I bought is simple, since I upgraded to new video card - the EMI/RFI noise floor became unreasonably high for me - thus the new toy. To completely and guaranteed get rid of the issue I used optical out of onboard connector.

"less than stellar pc analogue output" - do you experience any of issues I had mentioned above?
Any noticeable noise/hiss/clicks - if so - external dac is the right solution, otherwise like I said above even 1/3 of the original price might not be great value as company still made killer profits even at 1/3 of original price. Just think about it....

The difference between -100db and -120db THD is indistinguishable for humans

 

[Ponzio]

the guys here are not steering u wrong ... save ur money and get a nice pair $1K bookshelves ... too numerous to mention here; look around the site ... instead of a DAC with a decent used amp (110W and up; great prices nowadays for old Yamaha, Rotel, Denon's, etc. for less than $200) ... pickup a sub later and you'll be golden.

 

[Jelle]

Again, the value is relative. I bought a $150 external dac (see sig) for use with my pc, but I think it represents better value as it also serves as headphone amp and a pre-amp (volume control)
The reason I bought is simple, since I upgraded to new video card - the EMI/RFI noise floor became unreasonably high for me - thus the new toy. To completely and guaranteed get rid of the issue I used optical out of onboard connector.

"less than stellar pc analogue output" - do you experience any of issues I had mentioned above?
Any noticeable noise/hiss/clicks - if so - external dac is the right solution, otherwise like I said above even 1/3 of the original price might not be great value as company still made killer profits even at 1/3 of original price. Just think about it....

The difference between -100db and -120db THD is indistinguishable for humans

I do experience little clicks and noises etc. which i hope the DAC will reduce. Apart from that, my audiocable is a jack to RCA that runs across my room together with many other electrical cables. I hope that optical SPDIF will get rid of possible interference on that part. My plan is to upgrade my audio system in the following decades, this auction was an unexpected start, where i could get speakers and a DAC at a very reasonable price. Now i can save for decent amps etc!
I agree completely that store sale prices do not reflect product quality, nor do i believe that a 150$ dac is per definition inferior to a 600$ dac (i have read many loving reviews on the dragonfly dac for instance). However, i believe that a 600$ dac is unlikely to disappoint me for a 200$ investment.
Apart from that, my choice for the M1dac is also based on experience in the PA world, and i have very good experiences with balanced XLR cables. This dac has XLR outputs which i believe offer great noise reduction compared to non-balanced cables (at least from the experiences with PA systems, this might be completely placebo). Although this might not be audible on every hifi system (do to better build quality or lower volume or something), in my opinion large venue speaker systems tend to accentuate little noises and EMI/RFI, thus my goal to reduce this previously often experienced annoyance.

But you've all made me decide not to buy an extra internal soundcard, and just use the motherboard optical S/PDIF or asynchronous USB out to the DAC, since 192kHz seems like no real advantage over the 96kHz my onboard S/PDIF already offers.

 

[Jelle]

the guys here are not steering u wrong ... save ur money and get a nice pair $1K bookshelves ... too numerous to mention here; look around the site ... instead of a DAC with a decent used amp (110W and up; great prices nowadays for old Yamaha, Rotel, Denon's, etc. for less than $200) ... pickup a sub later and you'll be golden.

I really appreciate all the feedback from the experienced users! And i will definitely take their posts into consideration. As for speakers, i have old Bose 301-II series now, but at the same auction i've bought ELAC FS58.2 speakers. I have yet to hear them, and if they do not sound better than my good old Bose speakers i will resell them (bit of a gamble, an online bancruptcy auction).
I used to have an old Rotel amp (did many years of service, dated from before i was even born) but that one ended up in smoke and flames. I replaced it with a Yamaha AX-497, which is fine for now, but lets see if it works well with the ELAC speakers.

I will also keep an eye out for nice bookshelf speakers!

 

[Swerd]

About cables with XLR plugs, and the whole balanced vs. non-balanced issue…

Professional audio (recording studios and PA systems for large venues) standardized on XLR cables a long time ago. Its most important for microphones (very low signal voltage) and long cable runs. It also helped to have one and only one type of interconnect cable for all the gear, and balanced electronic components helped eliminate noise from a variety of sources that might be encountered. It made for one less thing to trouble shoot as gear was assembled and wired for what might be short periods of use.

Home audio standardized on RCA jacks for interconnects because it cost less, home audio gear could be smaller if it didn't have to make the space for XLR jacks, and it was much less likely to run into significant EMI or RFI noise in homes where the interconnect lengths were on the short side.

There is no inherent superiority to audio signals traveling over one type of cable or another. If EMI or RFI noise is at low levels, there is nothing at all to be gained.

Although XLR cables and connections are "fashionable" among audiophiles, it isn't worth paying extra to get home audio gear that features them.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

ELAC, never heard about that particular brand a month ago, and now it's the hottest thing on these forums largely due to Andrew Jones new Debut design. Not to say Elec previous designs were bad, probably the opposite, just not marketed in US since the 80s.

Swapping Bose for Elac speakers should be a massive upgrade.

p.s: Pls share the link for this auction

 

[PENG]

There are no shortages of DAC in the less than $200 range that brings most to the point of diminishing return so if one wants to eliminate some doubts there isn't much harm to get one. Speakers are most important but real good ones are not inexpensive. I was not impressed with ELAC in the past and would never consider them, but that may change now for reasons BSA cited, though that remains to be seen. My 0.02 cent, there are better British designed speakers such as B&W, KEF, MA, even Wharfedale.

 

[Jelle]

I had never heard of ELAC speakers until i saw them in this auction. I read some reviews, and figured that this is probably an upgrade to my current system that will be fine for a couple of years, giving me the opportunity to upgrade other parts such as my amplifiers and subwoofer. A sort of preliminary mini upgrade you can say.

p.s: Pls share the link for this auction

As for this auction, it finished before i registered here, so unfortunately you cannot bid on stuff anymore, but if i see another one, i will definitely post a link here! (keep in mind that this is a dutch auction site, where you have to pick up your stuff in Holland, or pay shipping costs. So for most of you it would probably be not very accessible, but i will post a link if something like this comes along nevertheless!)

 

[Jelle]

There is no inherent superiority to audio signals traveling over one type of cable or another.

I understand that a good cable of any kind is perfectly capable of maintaining good audio quality. I've encountered crappy XLR cables as well which sound, not so surprisingly, crappy as hell. My preference for XLR cables is most likely more based on the many faulty very cheap RCA cables i have encountered and so quite unfair (the hifi world with all its audio fanatics wouldn't settle for inferior cables right?).But is the home audio equipment with XLR connections that much more expensive??

 

[Ype]

Jelle, if you use XLR in your home, you could opt for home studio monitors as well. I use an external sound card with balanced connections directly hooked up to home studio monitors.

A quick Google search showed me that the DAC you just got has an USB connection. If that is correct, I would just use that to connect it to your PC. The USB cables are, at least in my experience, sturdier then optical cables. This way you can also easily hook it up to a laptop, if you so desire.

All the other advice and insights given on this thread is correct. It is nice to see that people still speak the truth about audio. Take it to heart and you will know where your money is best spend.

The only thing I have not seen anyone mention is your room. The most important thing in the audio chain is the recording, after that it's your room and speakers. You cannot think of them as loose entities, they live and breathe together.

If you want more information on that, Harman white papers written by Floyd Toole are an excellent place to start.

Best of luck, and above all, have fun,
-Ype

 

[jinjuku]

Bottom line is the Xonar is a good internal DAC. Period. I went with a DC to DC ATX converter and Tripplite 10 Amp Linear / Regulated power supply for my computer to do away with the crappy switch mode power supplies that most computers use as a way of mitigating EMI pollution.

 

[jinjuku]

ere is nothing at all to be gained.

Although XLR cables and connections are "fashionable" among audiophiles, it isn't worth paying extra to get home audio gear that features them.

My cost was negligible for going balanced. It really didn't make sense not to.

 

[Ype]

The bottom line is that he already has an external DAC and buying a Xonar sound card would not help him in any way. Period.

I am not familiar with the cost of all the equipment you mentioned, but I'd hazard a guess and say it's more expensive then a single cable.

If you did not mean this as buying advice, take this post with a smile. However, it could be interpreted as such. I would hate for Jelle to take your words over that of others that posted just because you are a Moderator.

With great power comes great responsibility,
-Ype

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Ype and jin. You're both have valid but different solution, except different approaches.
Jinjuku is using ultra linear and dc power supply and pro sound card to minimize EMI/RFI, while some others suggest external dac (with external power supply)
Both completely legitimate options. OP can implement ether of them.
No need for fighting words

 

[Jelle]

I think that the common opinion is that the extra internal sound card (however decent) is of no added value in the setup i have in mind, right? In time i aim for more serious amps than my current low-budget yamaha ax-497, and i think many of the more expensive amps (emotiva, Marantz series, rotel etc.) all have balanced inputs, next to the RCA inputs.

I have never thought about getting a more specialized power supply, i have a decent cooler master power supply that works fine, maybe i'll experiment some with other power supplies and see if i notice improvement. I'll look into the EMI for computer power supplies (among the many other subjects i'll have to look into)

Costs of equipment are an issue for now (just graduaded), so i want to upgrade in shifts. My DAC and speakers are a sort of a first step (quite spontaneously, but who can argue against such discounts).

@ Ype, are these the papers you mentioned?
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Pages/WhitePapers.aspx?CategoryID=White papers