Added Vinyl- looking for input, suggestions, monkey jokes, etc.

[adwilk]

Sorry, Mark. Got to Rule 2 and the implication that somebody who is uneducated is an idiot and ignored the rest of your post. Maybe somebody else will find useful.

 

[3db]

Your problem is that it is a semiautomatic turntable.

Rule one of turntables, you never by an automatic or semi automatic turntable.

Rule 2, if you are an idiot and and but one, then you either sell it fast or dismantle the automatic or semiautomatic mechanism.

If you truly believe that his problem of tracking is because its a semi automatic turntable, then that makes you a bigger idiot than the OP for picking it up. Truly!!! I'm not a fan of semiautomatic turntables nor am I a fan of floating plinth designs. However, when I first started out in this hobby, I had a Radio Shack turntable that incorporated both of these aspect. It was a horrid noisy turntable but it NEVER had the problem that the OP mentioned.

Furthermore, dismantling the semiautomatic mechanism is just the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You know dam well as I do that this will NOT correct problem. All that does is makes the turntable unsellable.

For such a knowledgebale person, I found your advice in this particular thread down right unhelpful and borderline deceiptful. I know your not a fan of semiautomatic turntables but that does not give you the right to be ignorant, arrogant, disrespectful and insulting.

 

[adwilk]

I got the DUAL out of the rack and I'm working on my German :/

I got the Technics player all hooked up and set up- not much to adjust really. The tracking force was pre-set at the factory- came with little sticker showing its calibration. I made a slight adjustment for the upgraded stylus. It tracks the entire record beautifully. I'm very pleased. I finally feel like the actual sound has been improved over the AT player.

I wouldn't hate having another table around so I'm going to see if I can get the DUAL operating properly based on the advice given here. I think I'm good for a while, I have at least a decent player and have been buying up some records I like. I think I'll keep what I have for at least a few months and see how often I'm using it and how much I continue to enjoy it. I'll probably look at making a better investment then.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you truly believe that his problem of tracking is because its a semi automatic turntable, then that makes you a bigger idiot than the OP for picking it up. Truly!!! I'm not a fan of semiautomatic turntables nor am I a fan of floating plinth designs. However, when I first started out in this hobby, I had a Radio Shack turntable that incorporated both of these aspect. It was a horrid noisy turntable but it NEVER had the problem that the OP mentioned.

Furthermore, dismantling the semiautomatic mechanism is just the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You know dam well as I do that this will NOT correct problem. All that does is makes the turntable unsellable.

For such a knowledgebale person, I found your advice in this particular thread down right unhelpful and borderline deceiptful. I know your not a fan of semiautomatic turntables but that does not give you the right to be ignorant, arrogant, disrespectful and insulting.

The problem is that the arm friction is one of the most important specs determining the performance and sound of a turntable. The automatic mechanisms degrade this spec enormously.

I always do, and have talked owners into discarding these mechanisms, and the increase if fidelity is not subtle, but night and day.

That turntable probably has trouble with that arm also. It is the same as the one I did for afterlife.

I had to pretty much completely dismantle that arm, and rebuild it. I had many hours in it.

It was quite a good arm, but a fussy design.

Once I had it set up, and the auto mechanism discarded, the sound of the turntable was excellent.

I don't know of any real vinyl enthusiast who would use one of those turntables with the auto mechanism intact. We used to dump those going back to my college days and before. They are huge quality spoilers, and I will stick to my view that they should never be used.

 

[3db]

I don't know of any real vinyl enthusiast who would use one of those turntables with the auto mechanism intact. We used to dump those going back to my college days and before. They are huge quality spoilers, and I will stick to my view that they should never be used.

I agree with your technical assessment...except for the rebuilding part (because most of us can't do and therefore render the TT useless) ..but one doesn't go off calling another member an idiot for choosing something you happen to disagree with strongly. That's my point.

 

[Alex2507]

one doesn't go off calling another member an idiot

How well do you know Young Adam?

 

[3db]

How well do you know Young Adam?

That's baaaaad.. but funny

 

[highfigh]

Your problem is that it is a semiautomatic turntable.

Rule one of turntables, you never by an automatic or semi automatic turntable.

Rule 2, if you buy one, then you either sell it fast or dismantle the automatic or semiautomatic mechanism.

A cartridge/arm that has to drag additional mechanism will never work correctly. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Whenever I get one of these horrors, designed by someone who wandered in from the bicycle industry, I always dismantle these mechanisms and throw the parts in the trash bin.

Even if you are not having the problems you are having, the increase in fidelity is enormous from this mod.

None of these horrors ever sound correct with these mechanisms intact.

That arm is the same as on the turntable I prepared for Afterlife. After I threw away that ghastly mechanism the turntable sounded fine, in fact excellent.

There is a lot of information in an LP, and on most program it comes very close to equaling CD.

However a turntable is a mechanical analog mechanism. Unlike digital players there is highly significant increase in performance as you go up the food chain.

I know a lot will not want to hear this, but European turntables are much superior to Far Eastern ones. I also think that the finest turntables from the hey day of the LP can not be beaten.

For instance a Thorens TD 125 with an SME series 3 arm and a Shure V15 xmr can't be bested.

That arm cartridge combination was matched so compliance, mass and resonance all line up.

Bottom line, any cartridge does not work with any arm, not by a long shot.

The key to excellent LP reproduction is proper choice of turntable, arm and cartridge and obsessional set up.

It should be noted that the auto-return mechanism is something most people should have no problem removing with simple tools. I always liked Dual turntables until they came out with the cheesy plastic bases.

The Wright Brothers "wandered in" from the bicycle industry and it seems to have worked out pretty well.

 

[highfigh]

If you truly believe that his problem of tracking is because its a semi automatic turntable, then that makes you a bigger idiot than the OP for picking it up. Truly!!! I'm not a fan of semiautomatic turntables nor am I a fan of floating plinth designs. However, when I first started out in this hobby, I had a Radio Shack turntable that incorporated both of these aspect. It was a horrid noisy turntable but it NEVER had the problem that the OP mentioned.

Furthermore, dismantling the semiautomatic mechanism is just the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You know dam well as I do that this will NOT correct problem. All that does is makes the turntable unsellable.

For such a knowledgebale person, I found your advice in this particular thread down right unhelpful and borderline deceiptful. I know your not a fan of semiautomatic turntables but that does not give you the right to be ignorant, arrogant, disrespectful and insulting.

Yours didn't sit for 30 years, either. In the '70s and '80s, the store where I worked saw a constant stream of BSR, Garrard, BIC, Dual and other turntables with the slider/cam mechanism and they ALL had dried, crusty grease that was keeping them from operating smoothly, if at all. They'd hang up before the end of the record, too. Sounds familiar.

WRT disabling the return mechanism, it's easy and reversible, so it's not a bad thing to try. Once the slide has been dropped down, it will be easy enough to determine whether it's affecting the tracking and how much.

Mark isn't the first to recommend disabling the mechanism and he won't be the last.

 

[highfigh]

I got the DUAL out of the rack and I'm working on my German :/

I got the Technics player all hooked up and set up- not much to adjust really. The tracking force was pre-set at the factory- came with little sticker showing its calibration. I made a slight adjustment for the upgraded stylus. It tracks the entire record beautifully. I'm very pleased. I finally feel like the actual sound has been improved over the AT player.

I wouldn't hate having another table around so I'm going to see if I can get the DUAL operating properly based on the advice given here. I think I'm good for a while, I have at least a decent player and have been buying up some records I like. I think I'll keep what I have for at least a few months and see how often I'm using it and how much I continue to enjoy it. I'll probably look at making a better investment then.

A word of caution- don't disassemble the tracking assembly or the tonearm pivot. I doubt the pivot is sticky because they didn't use a grease that would harden, AFAIK and the anti-skate is basically a thin spring that presses against a lever to counteract the centripetal force but the lever's pivot might need new lube (very light oil). If you see plastic in the mechanism, don't use strong solvent to remove the grease- mineral spirits is about as far as I would go and even light oil will dissolve the grease. If it was only oiled and not greased, it may be gummy- use cotton swabs with light oil to dissolve whatever is there.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree with your technical assessment...except for the rebuilding part (because most of us can't do and therefore render the TT useless) ..but one doesn't go off calling another member an idiot for choosing something you happen to disagree with strongly. That's my point.

I agree with you on all counts and apologize.

 

[adwilk]

OK.. now that we're all on the same page...how do I dismantle this beast? I don't have much in it and I have a table I'm happy with .. I'm game. I've got a 30yo scotch waiting to go on an adventure. I'm honestly not scared to tear into it.. If its a learning experience, its time well spent in my book. Where do I begin?

 

[highfigh]

OK.. now that we're all on the same page...how do I dismantle this beast? I don't have much in it and I have a table I'm happy with .. I'm game. I've got a 30yo scotch waiting to go on an adventure. I'm honestly not scared to tear into it.. If its a learning experience, its time well spent in my book. Where do I begin?

http://dual.pytalhost.eu/626s/626s-15.jpg


The exploded view in the link shows the whole turntable, separated. Part #5 is the cam for the tonearm return and this can be removed easily.

First-

lift the rubber mat off- you should see a washer around the center hub and that needs to come off before the mat.

I don't see any kind of clip used for holding the platter on, so you may find that it will lift off easily. If not, look at the four holes around the center- if they're threaded, you may need to make a device to act as a puller. You don't want to lift the platter unevenly- it's fairly thin and could distort, causing it to wobble.

Look at the diagram- the cam has a C-clip holding it down- use a small screwdriver to pry the clip outward, making sure to keep it from flying away. Once this has been removed, the cam will lift off of the pin it rests on. Put the clip on the stud and clean & lube the slot and gear teeth in the cam, but only if you plan to use the auto-return feature. If you don't, clean it and put it in a plastic bag, for future re-use. Put the platter on and try it- it should operate without hanging up.

If you look at the front left and near the right edge of the part that is suspended with springs, you'll see two flat screw heads. These are called 'transport screws' and the table should never be moved without immobilizing the base. To do this, use a broad-blade screwdriver and rotate the screws as if you were loosening them while pressing downward on the top. You'll feel the thread engage and once this happens, you can stop pressing down- the screws will do the rest. Snug the screws and you'll see that the turntable can no longer bounce.

I don't remember how the table comes out from the base- IIRC, you would loosen the transport screws only until they can be lifted slightly and angle the one at the right so it clears the slot that holds it- this is part #82. Once that is loose, you should be able to lift that side and repeat this with the screw at the left front. Once that is clear of the base, you should be able to lift it out to have access to anything underneath.

It has been close to 30 years since I worked on one of these but the mechanism is relatively simple.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK.. now that we're all on the same page...how do I dismantle this beast? I don't have much in it and I have a table I'm happy with .. I'm game. I've got a 30yo scotch waiting to go on an adventure. I'm honestly not scared to tear into it.. If its a learning experience, its time well spent in my book. Where do I begin?

This should not be too difficult as long as the turntable has no been mucked about.

First remove the cartridge. The cartridge on those arms is mounted on a carrier. This is easily released from the arm, and makes cartridge installation and removal a breeze.

I also do not see a clip holding the turntable on. Look carefully to make sure there is not one. If there is remove it. The DUAL I went through did have one, but this is a different platter.

If there is no clip, the turntable should lift off.

Now usually spindles are a little conical, to make for a tight fit and centering. This often causes binding of the turntable on the spindle on old turntables.

If this should be the case, this is how you proceed. You will need an assistant, a short piece of 2 X 4 and a hammer.

Have the assistant support the whole weight of the unit by the turntable rim. Place a nice soft piece of mat of foam under the plinth.

Now place the 2 X 4 over the spindle and rap the 2 X 4 hard with the hammer until the turntable releases. This is the time honored and best way of dealing with this common problem.

Now you need to get the turntable out of the plinth, which is not obvious with these turntables.

Back off the sprung holding screws (82, on the service manual I downloaded from Vinyl engine).

Lift up the turntable from the plinth by each one of these screws in turn. Now with a flat piece of metal, such as a metal ruler or table knife, push the screws from under the turntable and they will release. The whole are U-shpaed and not completed, so the screws can be moved out of the mounting holes without being withdrawn. When all are released you can remove the unit from the plinth.

Disconnecting the auto mechanism from the arm will be obvious and straight forwards as Hi-Fi pointed out.

Once this is removed, you will be amazed at how the arm is freed up and it has much less inertia.

If you need to vac out fluff and dirt go ahead.

Now you can reinstall the turntable.

You need to have in on a flat surface. You will need a good spirit level.

Adjust the screws so that the table floats and the platter is level.

Now turn you attention to the arm. The lower ball race is sealed for life and I don't believe is is serviceable.

The are three gimble/conical bearings. Carefully remove each on in turn, clean it and then place a tiny quantity of graphite oil on the tip and replace, do each one on turn.

Now adjust them. Start with the side bearings. Now center the two side bearings, so that arm is central. Count the turns, so you know the arm is centered. Now adjust the needles so there is no play and no binding at all. Then lock the needles.

Now do the top carefully advance the tip until there is no play, but no binding and lock.

Hopefully the antiskate is not mucked about, like the one I did. If it is I will go through that for you. Unless there is an obvious problem leave this alone.

You should now be ready to set the turntable up. You can download an alignment protractor from vinyl engine.

Now you own turntables, I would strongly encourage you to register with vinyl engine. I think this is a must for turntable lovers.

I would recommend this Shure cartridge.

This cartridge is beautifully presented with good hardware, a screwdriver, a high quality stylus brush and an alignment protractor. It has a dynamic stabilizer which aids tracing for records not perfectly flat. (None are).

I bought one for my son at Christmas and this is a fabulous sounding cartridge. It is not just best in class, but best way above its class.

Second recommendation is the Ortofon 2M Red.

It comes with mounting screws only. It is a good budget cartridge. However in my opinion the Shure is the better sounding cartridge and has better trackability. This latter has always been the strong pint of Shure cartridges and is an essential attribute. In this aspect it bests cartridges costing as much as a luxury car.

If you need help or advice setting up a turntable, do not be embarrassed to ask, and I will be happy to talk you through it.

 

[slipperybidness]

I would recommend this Shure cartridge.

This cartridge is beautifully presented with good hardware, a screwdriver, a high quality stylus brush and an alignment protractor. It has a dynamic stabilizer which aids tracing for records not perfectly flat. (None are).

I bought one for my son at Christmas and this is a fabulous sounding cartridge. It is not just best in class, but best way above its class.

Second recommendation is the Ortofon 2M Red.

It comes with mounting screws only. It is a good budget cartridge. However in my opinion the Shure is the better sounding cartridge and has better trackability. This latter has always been the strong pint of Shure cartridges and is an essential attribute. In this aspect it bests cartridges costing as much as a luxury car.

TLS, question for you on the Shure cart. What is your opinion on that little "dust brush" that is attached to the front of that cart? Use it or not? Any degraded sound quality with the brush down on the record?

I typically leave mine down, it certainly helps to keep dust off the record. I do have a dust bug, but don't use it all the time.

BTW, I have the Shure on my Technics, and the 2M Red on my Pro-Ject.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS, question for you on the Shure cart. What is your opinion on that little "dust brush" that is attached to the front of that cart? Use it or not? Any degraded sound quality with the brush down on the record?

I typically leave mine down, it certainly helps to keep dust off the record. I do have a dust bug, but don't use it all the time.

BTW, I have the Shure on my Technics, and the 2M Red on my Pro-Ject.

The brush is just a secondary bonus. This unit is a dynamic stabilizer or shock absorber, if you will. This damps out the effect of warps and keeps the stylus force more constant. There is good data that it works. My SME arms have silicone dash pots.

According to SME the Shure stabilizer and the SME damper are synergistic. So I always use both systems with my Shure V 15 xmr which use the same system.

In my view some type of stabilization for warps should be part of any decent turntable, when in fact it is very unusual. It makes a significant difference, unless you are lucky enough to have perfectly flat records.

When you engage this stabilizer, which I strongly recommend, you need to remember it removes 0.5 GM from the tracking force, so you have to add 0.5 GM to the tracking force and anti skate, to your desired tracking force.

 

[highfigh]

I didn't know that hitting a turntable with hammer and using a piece of wood was the "time-honored" way- we used a puller. There's almost no shock and it doesn't fall.

I was surprised to see a cartridge priced at $8924 on the most recent Ortofon price sheet. That thing had better be outstanding!

What is your opinion of the Thorens TD-160?

 

[3db]

Sounds like a complicated procedure if one hasn't done it before.

 

[TLS Guy]

I didn't know that hitting a turntable with hammer and using a piece of wood was the "time-honored" way- we used a puller. There's almost no shock and it doesn't fall.

I was surprised to see a cartridge priced at $8924 on the most recent Ortofon price sheet. That thing had better be outstanding!

What is your opinion of the Thorens TD-160?

A puller is not a good way to do it. The turntables are alloy and a puller will bend and warp the turntable.

My method is the time honored way.

That is exactly what it tells you to do in the Garrard 301 instruction book, and it works! Time honored by being over half a century old.

The TD 150/160 series turntables are fine, but the arms are not that great, so it is best to get one without an arm.

I bought my TD 150 in 1966 without an arm and no plinth. You did not have to but a plinth back then. Almost all 301 turntables were sold as just the turntable, no arm or plinth. Owners were expected to be handy back then.

 

[highfigh]

A puller is not a good way to do it. The turntables are alloy and a puller will bend and warp the turntable.

My method is the time honored way.

That is exactly what it tells you to do in the Garrard 301 instruction book, and it works! Time honored by being over half a century old.

The TD 150/160 series turntables are fine, but the arms are not that great, so it is best to get one without an arm.

I bought my TD 150 in 1966 without an arm and no plinth. You did not have to but a plinth back then. Almost all 301 turntables were sold as just the turntable, no arm or plinth. Owners were expected to be handy back then.

The alloy is the reason the holes are close together and as long as it wasn't hammered in place.........

Yes- people were handy, back then. Shop classes, magazines like Popular Science, Popular Mechanics and no stigma about people who work with their hands made it a good time to be alive, especially for inquisitive kids and adults who wanted to do things for themselves.

I had a customer who owned a Thorens, but I don't remember the model. It had a wooden 16" arm, which I may still have. I replaced it when he could no longer buy a replacement stylus and found a nice SME to mount on a new board.