Baltimore

[Rickster71]

So does that out of that long list there weren't any convictions?

From AP story:
Gray has been in and out of prison for several drug convictions in Baltimore, starting in 2008, according to online court records. He had a trial scheduled May 21 on new drug charges stemming from an arrest in December. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4e39c4f4cfde4266bf06ed630bce193f/baltimore-hospital-says-man-injured-police-encounter-dies

 

[Swerd]

So does that out of that long list there weren't any convictions?

I'm saying that long list of priors is irrelevant. It doesn't matter even if they were all convictions with genuine (not planted) evidence.

The police fatally injured Freddie Grey during capture or soon afterwards. He had tried to run from them, which is not a crime. Some people claim they injured his spine during the capture. A policeman can be seen in a video, kneeing him on his neck while he was face down on the sidewalk. Immediately after that, Grey was unable to stand or walk as they dragged him to the van. Others believe the fatal spine injury happened during the so-called rough ride. The video record is unclear about that. However, the police have kept silent about what may have happened inside their van. Police officials have already admitted that Grey was not wearing a seat belt during his van ride, and reminded us that was against their policy.

 

[Swerd]

I guess it's becoming a "Chicken or Egg" scenario.
Wide spread anger and resentment... and what group got fed up first?
I would imagine the police are just as angry as the rioters and looters.

can we agree that these riots didn't occur in a vacuum? that there are legitimate and long, long standing gripes in this community and many others throughout the country and the issue will have to be addressed. if not, were all pissing in the wind ... media or no media.

The real question is not who should be blamed, but what can we do next to fix the mess?

 

[Ponzio]

The real question is not who should be blamed, but what can we do next to fix the mess?

fixing is harder than destroying ... that's the problem ... on both sides.

 

[Rickster71]

What debate is there, when unarmed suspects are being denied their right to trial by jury?

And to so callously disrespect the life of a fellow American.

We are not the UNITED States when its everyone for themselves. Love Thy Neighbor is just that hard huh? And I'm an atheist....

I agree, especially if you're referring to both sides of the issue.
Why loot and burn down a neighborhood CVS, a sporting goods store. Why burn down so much of their own neighborhood; I think it was 14 buildings.

 

[Steve81]

I often wonder what bad behavior occurred first?

Historically, I think that's a pretty easy answer. It's been 150 years since we've gotten the 13th amendment . Brown vs. Board of Education was only 60 years ago. The Civil Rights act was only 51 years ago. Segregation, lynchings, Jim Crow, etc. are by no means ancient history in this country. Now add in the poor socio-economic circumstances of many black communities. Some pieces within the cycle of poverty are self-inflicted to be sure; however, the scars of the past don't just heal overnight. All said and done, I can understand the "why" of Baltimore; it's certainly not just a result of the death of one man.

Mind, none of this excuses arson, looting, etc. in a civilized society. OTOH, one might consider the statement:

Principles have no real force except when one is well-fed.

 

[Rickster71]

The real question is not who should be blamed, but what can we do next to fix the mess?

This brings me to my favorite part

Being a student of Edward Bernays, I tend to follow the big money that doesn't want it fixed.

This reminds me of the never ending and always profitable, War on Drugs.
It will never end, because it employes so many and so many billions of Federal money gets thrown at it.
The same holds true for the Federal money for Poverty and lucrative fights against racism.

 

[Ponzio]

This brings me to my favorite part

Being a student of Edward Bernays, I tend to follow the big money that doesn't want it fixed.

This reminds me of the never ending and always profitable, War on Drugs.
It will never end, because it employes so many and so many billions of Federal money gets thrown at it.
The same holds true for the Federal money for Poverty and lucrative fights against racism.

u had me until that last sentence. so let the poverty fester, along with the racism?

 

[Rickster71]

Historically, I think that's a pretty easy answer. It's been 150 years since we've gotten the 13th amendment . Brown vs. Board of Education was only 60 years ago. The Civil Rights act was only 51 years ago. Segregation, lynchings, Jim Crow, etc. are by no means ancient history in this country. Now add in the poor socio-economic circumstances of many black communities. Some pieces within the cycle of poverty are self-inflicted to be sure; however, the scars of the past don't just heal overnight. All said and done, I can understand the "why" of Baltimore; it's certainly not just a result of the death of one man.

Mind, none of this excuses arson, looting, etc. in a civilized society. OTOH, one might consider the statement:

I see.... so the young 16 to 20 somethings I see looting and robing and rioting are simply young men with a vast and intimate knowledge of US History and are upset?
You kinda set yourself up for that one

 

[Rickster71]

u had me until that last sentence. so let the poverty fester, along with the racism?

Wow, where did that come from?
I was simply stating, when Federal money gets thrown at something for over sixty years with little or no result, I become suspicious.

 

[Steve81]

I see.... so the young 16 to 20 somethings I see looting and robing and rioting are simply young men with a vast and intimate knowledge of US History and are upset?
You kinda set yourself up for that one

That's the problem: it's not just US history for these folks. It's family history, in many cases combined with the perception that little or nothing has changed.

 

[Rickster71]

That's the problem: it's not just US history for these folks. It's family history, in many cases combined with the perception that little or nothing has changed.

Well it was asked how to start fixing this. It's seems to start with fixing perception. Human perception, as we know at AH is not necessarily accurate.
There are many successful black people. As soon as George Washington Carver made himself the man he was.... he set the bar to show that all could do it. One man did it, then all men can do it.
Life isn't fair for most of us. I grew up with very little and when I felt sorry for myself I just tried harder.

I think we're reading way too much into this and making excuses for the bad behavior of the police and the rioters.
All involved are subject to all the faults human frailty and both side are angry and both sides screwed up. Both sides are ruining society for the rest of us.

 

[Swerd]

This brings me to my favorite part

Being a student of Edward Bernays, I tend to follow the big money that doesn't want it fixed.

This reminds me of the never ending and always profitable, War on Drugs.
It will never end, because it employes so many and so many billions of Federal money gets thrown at it.
The same holds true for the Federal money for Poverty and lucrative fights against racism.

Never is very very long time.

When I was young in the 1960s it seemed like public opinion would never turn against the war in Vietnam. It did, but it happened slowly.

In the 1970s when Richard Nixon was caught in his lies and deceptions (Watergate) it seemed like public opinion would never turn against a sitting president. It did, but it happened slowly.

There are lots of other examples in our history of things happening slowly but not never. Gay marriage becoming legalized, for example.

I hope that the powerful forces in play with the police in the USA eventually fail, and stop making war on a portion of its citizenry. In fact, I hope it happens slowly. When things change way too fast, it never happens gently. The French, Russian, and Chinese revolutions are examples where many things changed way too fast and many people suffered.

 

[Swerd]

I think we're reading way too much into this and making excuses for the bad behavior of the police and the rioters.
All involved are subject to all the faults human frailty and both side are angry and both sides screwed up. Both sides are ruining society for the rest of us.

I certainly can't disagree with this .

On a slightly different subject, today one of my employees asked for tomorrow off. She emigrated to the USA years ago from Czechoslovakia (now the Slovak Republic) and tomorrow she goes to do her final immigrations interview and become a US citizen. The immigrations office is in Baltimore, and she said "wild horses couldn't keep me away".

I've always enjoyed how people from other societies and countries sometimes don't understand how we can be so argumentative in the US while remaining one country. This employee admits that it took her a long time, but now she gets it totally.

It always helps to put things into perspective.

 

[markw]

I certainly can't disagree with this .

On a slightly different subject, today one of my employees asked for tomorrow off. She emigrated to the USA years ago from Czechoslovakia (now the Slovak Republic) and tomorrow she goes to do her final immigrations interview and become a US citizen. The immigrations office is in Baltimore, and she said "wild horses couldn't keep me away".

I've always enjoyed how people from other societies and countries sometimes don't understand how we can be so argumentative in the US while remaining one country. This employee admits that it took her a long time, but now she gets it totally.

It always helps to put things into perspective.

I've found that people born and spent some time in other countries tend to appreciate what this country can offer as far as opportunities. This goes for Europeans, Africans and Asians. There are probably more but these represent the bulk of my experiences.

FWIW, Africans generally are deathly afraid of having their children "hang out" with city bred American blacks. They generally think they are crazy and really scrutinize any that their kids bring home. This from my Nigerian born and raised neighbor.

 

[Steve81]

Well it was asked how to start fixing this. It's seems to start with fixing perception. Human perception, as we know at AH is not necessarily accurate.

True enough, our perception of things doesn't always line up with reality. However, we're not talking about cables here, and I suspect you'd have a hard time convincing someone living in the slums of Baltimore just how awesome things are today compared with 50 years ago.

There are many successful black people. As soon as George Washington Carver made himself the man he was.... he set the bar to show that all cold do it. One man did it, then all men can do it.

Exceptional individuals can do many great things from humble beginnings. Unfortunately, the rest of us may not be so lucky.

I think we're reading way too much into this and making excuses for the bad behavior of the police and the rioters.

There are no excuses. Those who committed crimes (on both sides) should face the full extent of the law. OTOH, if you want to avoid riots in the future, it's helpful to understand why they occurred, and attempt to solve the problem. Just continuing with the status quo seems like a recipe for failure.

 

[Swerd]

FWIW, Africans generally are deathly afraid of having their children "hang out" with city bred American blacks. They generally think they are crazy and really scrutinize any that their kids bring home. This from my Nigerian born and raised neighbor.

I've seen the same. FWIW many Africans who've come here in the last decade or two are the educated elite from their home countries. They come here with college degrees, MDs, or MBAs. One guy I knew, also from Nigeria, had spent a number of years in Great Britain. He said American blacks are kind of like the Irish in the UK. I hadn't ever thought of it like that before, but I think he was right.

 

[Chu Gai]

can we agree that these riots didn't occur in a vacuum? that there are legitimate and long, long standing gripes in this community and many others throughout the country and the issue will have to be addressed. if not, were all pissing in the wind ... media or no media.

Certainly there are issues and among the people of Baltimore there are those who looked to stand up for their community. There's enough bigotry and racism around for everyone to claim their share. Reports from the Baltimore riots found black store owners telling people not to attack their business but that liquor store over there was owned by Chinese. And off they went.
The following is a video of a guy who owns a pizzeria telling his story. I'm sure being an immigrant was pretty tough for him especially with an Arabic name. Don't know about you guys but it was tough for my parents with no more than a grammar school education.

https://t.co/FRqEUqA2Pj

 

[markw]

Some facts about Baltimore, just to keep things in perspective.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/04/308815-democrat-milwaukee-sheriff-baltimore-riots-failed-liberal-policies-fault/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Politics

This ain't Kansas, Toto.

 

[herbu]

Same plot. Different characters. And the same 2 perspectives.

One side believes bad behavior can be explained, if not excused, by the environment. The other side believes bad behavior is a choice and people are responsible for their choices.

At this point, we don't know the facts of what happened. Drawing a conclusion based on, "I heard" or "so-and-so said", simple reveals one's own prejudice... one way or the other.