Yamaha AVR sounds better than my new Parasounds?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Complementary balanced does have benefits, but mostly, it's used for commercial/pro/industrial applications that use +4dBu input signal level and 600 Ohm input impedance. It was never intended for consumer use. If you look into it, the S/N ratio is lower, the shield is floated above chassis ground potential and the signal can be transmitted over extreme distances, but again, that's not needed in the typical consumer system. Also, the S/N ratio with balanced is kind of a moot point, considering how much more quiet consumer equipment is now, compared with 25-30 years ago, when 85dB was great if it was line level. Phono S/N was often only about 65dB.

I was just talking about audio politics.

I personally don't think there is a significant difference. But if people are going to believe significant differences among amps and all that, then there might as well be a significant difference with a well built fully balanced system. Oh, blinded tests and volume matched and all that.

 

[highfigh]

I was just talking about audio politics.

I personally don't think there is a significant difference. But if people are going to believe significant differences among amps and all that, then there might as well be a significant difference between a well built fully balanced vs non-differential designs too. Oh, blinded tests and volume matched and all that.

I have always looked for ways to minimize noise and balanced does that well. However, since most audio gear in the consumer realm isn't balanced, one good way to approach that S/N level is using twisted pair cables because they not only have a shield on the outside, the twisted wires are a great way to remove common-mode noise. First time I saw this, it was from a company called AAMP of America, who at the time, was only selling car audio parts and accessories, but they have moved into AV, now.

I know that in low noise environments, just about anything will work, but in my case, I live close to two TV/Radio antenna farms and reception for both sucks because I'm not dealing with Signal to Noise, it's more a problem of Noise to Signal. When I connected the first XLR, I wanted to find out if it would matter (I think I had previously posted that I was checking these for noise, since they'll be used in an installation I'm doing) and it did. Less noise at that same volume control setting and all I did was turn it off, change the first cable and turn it on before repeating for the second one.

I hate noise I really do and yes, I get the irony in saying that the phono section is very quiet.

 

[vantara]

Can't believe my post generated all of this. Fascinating, but I admit I don't understand half of what you guys are talking about... but that's on me. ;-) FWIW, Parasound told me that when I had both the XLR and RCA outs connected, I was actually shorting out one leg of the XLR. So, don't do that. Also, the Bal/Unbal switch is not an input selector (contrary to my assumption). What I think I've also learned about XLR vs. RCA is that the noise floor would be lower in the XLR and, therefore, should produce "better" sound quality. Um... so... maybe I should've stuck with the XLR. Thanks again for all your input, folks. I'm learning, but it's a steep climb.

 

[PENG]

Complementary balanced does have benefits, but mostly, it's used for commercial/pro/industrial applications that use +4dBu input signal level and 600 Ohm input impedance. It was never intended for consumer use. If you look into it, the S/N ratio is lower, the shield is floated above chassis ground potential and the signal can be transmitted over extreme distances, but again, that's not needed in the typical consumer system. Also, the S/N ratio with balanced is kind of a moot point, considering how much more quiet consumer equipment is now, compared with 25-30 years ago, when 85dB was great if it was line level. Phono S/N was often only about 65dB.

I am not sure if I can agree to that. I can't think of a review I read that showed lower S/N in the balanced mode but I know just about every review I read showed the single ended mode had lower S/N. Try reading up on the Sound and Vision, Stereophile, Home Cinema Choice, AVtech etc. and you will see that I am stating facts. I understand fully balanced lines reject common mode noise and I am not quite clear why most if not all lab measurements published online showed the opposite. I have my suspects though. I also don't doubt for longer lengths of interconnects balanced will win every time. Most lab measurements done by audio magazines most likely used very short runs of interconnects.

Fully balanced from input to output in theory should help minimize distortions as well but for that to happen, I think components matching has to be perfect. So I will not trust low cost fully differential amps because I believe they cannot achieve the goal of yielding all the theoretical benefits of fully differential while keeping the cost much lower than others at the same time. Parasound is a good example, at their competitive prices it will be very difficult, if possible, to double the component counts without sacrificing something else. It may be wise for them to invest on the best quality components while saving cost on not having to double the components count for fully differential implementation. In other words, you may get better result using 16 top grade power transistors than 32 second graders.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can't believe my post generated all of this.

Oh we're gifted in the arts of derailing threads and going far off tangent.

 

[highfigh]

Can't believe my post generated all of this. Fascinating, but I admit I don't understand half of what you guys are talking about... but that's on me. ;-) FWIW, Parasound told me that when I had both the XLR and RCA outs connected, I was actually shorting out one leg of the XLR. So, don't do that. Also, the Bal/Unbal switch is not an input selector (contrary to my

I am not sure if I can agree to that. I can't think of a review I read that showed lower S/N in the balanced mode but I know just about every review I read showed the single ended mode had lower S/N. Try reading up on the Sound and Vision, Stereophile, Home Cinema Choice, AVtech etc. and you will see that I am stating facts. I understand fully balanced lines reject common mode noise and I am not quite clear why most if not all lab measurements published online showed the opposite. I have my suspects though. I also don't doubt for longer lengths of interconnects balanced will win every time. Most lab measurements done by audio magazines most likely used very short runs of interconnects.

Fully balanced from input to output in theory should help minimize distortions as well but for that to happen, I think components matching has to be perfect. So I will not trust low cost fully differential amps because I believe they cannot achieve the goal of yielding all the theoretical benefits of fully differential while keeping the cost much lower than others at the same time. Parasound is a good example, at their competitive prices it will be very difficult, if possible, to double the component counts without sacrificing something else. It may be wise for them to invest on the best quality components while saving cost on not having to double the components count for fully differential implementation. In other words, you may get better result using 16 top grade power transistors than 32 second graders.

assumption). What I think I've also learned about XLR vs. RCA is that the noise floor would be lower in the XLR and, therefore, should produce "better" sound quality. Um... so... maybe I should've stuck with the XLR. Thanks again for all your input, folks. I'm learning, but it's a steep climb.

That explanation makes sense- the center pin of the unbalanced plug corresponds to Pin 2 of an XLR (normal signal), Pin 1 is always Ground and Pin 3 is the inverted signal. When the switch is in the Unbalanced position, pins 1 & 3 are connected but in some designs, one channel is inverted on the input because it eliminates the need to pass through a preamp stage's op-amp.

Balanced came about when audio was very young and because all amplifiers at that time used tubes and no speakers had a permanent magnet, they needed to place the amplifiers near the speakers. That left one choice if the source was going to be in a projection booth- put the booth next to the screen (doesn't work, for obvious reason) or have a long cable from the source to the amplifier. Speakers were usually horn-loaded and very sensitive because of the amplifiers' low power, so noise was easily heard. The signal path was balanced from source to amplifier and that's really how it should be- mixing in something that's unbalanced throws a monkey wrench in the whole operation. They used RCA plugs without a shield or common in many cases, too- as long as the source and preamp and/or power amp are in good contact, no common is needed because unbalanced uses the chassis. Now, that's not necessarily true and we seem to have more noise problems than ever. The only noise I remember hearing in the '70s was hum when a turntable was used or hiss from noisy equipment.

Quasi-balanced using RCA works well, cables with XLR ends can work well, but there's no guarantee it will make a difference. If I connect these Canare cables in the system I mentioned with the Krell pre/power and I hear hum again, they're staying out. The power amp is plugged into an outlet at one end of a cabinet and the preamp is at the other end, on the same circuit. In fact, all of my equipment is on the same 20A circuit and it works fine, except when I had these cables installed. It's possible that the iron was too cold and I re-soldered the ones I'm using when I came back- it was cold in the basement where I made the cables.

How does it sound, now?

 

[slipperybidness]

I hate noise I really do and yes, I get the irony in saying that the phono section is very quiet.

+1

My goal is ALWAYS to be able to kill my source, crank ALL of my gains to MAX, put my ear right on the tweet, and hear dead-silence!

I have accomplished that in my HT system, and my 2 ch man cave system. I think I have 1 DIY system that I haven't quite achieved that...yet, but it is so dang close that it's a moot point.

I should also mention....this is ALL single ended RCA!!! If the problem doesn't exist, then don't try to fix it!

Another big advantage of XLR that a lot of people really like is that audible and tactile "click" that let's you know it is inserted correctly and secured.

 

[highfigh]

+1

My goal is ALWAYS to be able to kill my source, crank ALL of my gains to MAX, put my ear right on the tweet, and hear dead-silence!

I have accomplished that in my HT system, and my 2 ch man cave system. I think I have 1 DIY system that I haven't quite achieved that...yet, but it is so dang close that it's a moot point.

I should also mention....this is ALL single ended RCA!!! If the problem doesn't exist, then don't try to fix it!

Another big advantage of XLR that a lot of people really like is that audible and tactile "click" that let's you know it is inserted correctly and secured.

I agree about no noise although it's acceptable if the speakers are never close enough to hear it, like a distributed audio system- they're usually on the all or hung high enough that the noise isn't audible when ambient noise is extremely low. With some equipment, by the time the noise is gone, the loss of SPL is excessive and the system no longer achieves the desired output. That's just bad system design, though.

If unbalanced signal transmission didn't work well enough, we wouldn't be using it.

I did car audio for a long time and in cars, the noise isn't just from head units/processors and amplifiers, it can be from noisy relays, switches, breaks in wires that flex, wire routing and inadequate wire gauge. I worked for one place and we had noise problems all the time and it was usually because of the product mix sold by one guy- Alpine head unit, Audio Control processors and ADS power amps. All were fine with other brands but as a system, there was a slight problem with grounding that made them more susceptible to noise. It made us look our installation and specifically our grounding practices very closely. By the time I left that place, we no longer had these problems and the next place was a high-volume dealer- long diagnosis times would never have been acceptable.

 

[vantara]

And now back to our regularly scheduled program....

Here's what I got back from Parasound when I explained that-- while both the RCA and XLR cables were physically connected and I noticed better sound when the switch was on Unbalanced vs. Balanced: "The RCA jacks are dominating the scene because they’re shorting out the balanced input on the A 23. This in turn is shorting out the balanced output on the P 5 as well. No wonder the sound is bad."

So, this is fair, as I was falsely assuming that the Bal/Unbal switch was an input selector.

However (and this has been a long and mentally exhausting road), when I first set up the A23 and P5, I was using ONLY the Audioquest MacKenzie XLR cables, with the switch set to "Balanced." A proper configuration. It was at that initial point that i thought the sound was lousy compared to my Yamaha. Only then did I add the RCAs, and switched back and forth between Bal/Unbal, and detected (and I was not alone) that moving the switch to "Unbalanced" delivered superior sound quality.

I guess the only thing for me to do now is go back and get those XLRs (which I returned), and do another comparison with only XLRs on Balanced, and then RCAs on Unbalanced.

Unreal.