So I tried bi-amping my Salon(1)s...

[Irvrobinson]

And even when you remove the jumpers, all the internal crossovers are still connected to all the drivers and you can only Passive bi-amp.

Yes, the high pass and low pass filters are still associated with each driver or group of drivers (in the case of the woofers), but only certain drivers and their filters are associated with each of the two amps. So the amp driving the midrange and tweeter drivers see a different electrical load than the amp driving the woofers. In my experience in most cases, like with the Salon2s, you don't get any benefit from passive bi-amping. But sometimes you can. Not often, but it happens.

 

[RichB]

And even when you remove the jumpers, all the internal crossovers are still connected to all the drivers and you can only Passive bi-amp.

This means after all is said and done, you really get no significant benefit from passive bi-amp.

It sounds better which I think is a benefit.
The upper frequency amp gets no load for the lower frequencies since the hi-pass filter removes the load. No load no power requirement. Consider disconnecting a speaker terminal for a channel. The input signal is provided but there is no load that amp channels stays cool.

It seems to me the advantage of active crossovers is tuning and avoiding power loss due to the crossover network. However, it is moving the woofers that requires the power.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I emailed Revel and concerning bi-amping and got this response:

Hi Rich,

Thanks for writing.

We generally suggest bi-amplifying our loudspeakers when possible, especially if the amplifier you are using does not provide the maximum amount of the power the loudspeaker can handle (500 watts at an 8 ohm rating for the Salon). I would say about 90% of the power is consumed by the woofers, and 10% of the power is consumed by the mids and highs. When bi-amping, the lows will be prominent and tight and the highs will have head room without distortion for days, preventing the least amount of overlap, and allowing the energy used to amplify the highs to be dedicated to the highs and not used up by more un-needed lows (causing distortion in HF). If you are noticing a significant difference in fidelity when using a bi-amp vs. single wire connection this would not be an issue with the crossover networks. Whether you are bi-amping or using a single wire connection you are still using the same crossovers in both instances, the power is just distributed more efficiently when bi-amplifying.

I included a picture of the locations for each of the crossover boards. These would need to be accessed from the front by removing the woofers. Please know, if all speakers are still passing audio a visual examination is not necessary since a component level failure on these networks would cause no output from the respective drivers. I do not suggest replacing these crossover boards unless you are experiencing an absolute failure.

I hope this helps.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It sounds better which I think is a benefit.
The upper frequency amp gets no load for the lower frequencies since the hi-pass filter removes the load. No load no power requirement. Consider disconnecting a speaker terminal for a channel. The input signal is provided but there is no load that amp channels stays cool.

It seems to me the advantage of active crossovers is tuning and avoiding power loss due to the crossover network. However, it is moving the woofers that requires the power.

- Rich

In all these passive speakers, the woofers get 90% or more of the amp power anyway. So why not just use one good amp? 300W would be 270W (90%).

There is a good reason why many experienced speaker engineers/designers say that passive bi-amp is 100% waste of time.

But it's only a hobby. People should do what makes them feel good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I emailed Revel and concerning bi-amping and got this response:



- Rich

Oh, heck, every company says they suggest passive bi-amp and that it may improve the nuance, blah, blah, blah. Nothing new. It's been around for 30 years.

Passive bi-amp doesn't do anything for most people. But anything is possible.

Everyone is welcomed to believe passive bi-amp doesn't do anything and everyone is welcomed to believe it does something.

Just don't become an audio dealer. The minute you do, people will call you Snake Oil for sure the way you promote passive bi-amp and all amps sound significantly different.

But since you are not a dealer, you can believe anything with no problem at all.

 

[RichB]

In all these passive speakers, the woofers get 90% or more of the amp power anyway. So why not just use one good amp? 300W would be 270W (90%).

There is a good reason why many experienced speaker engineers/designers say that passive bi-amp is 100% waste of time.

But it's only a hobby. People should do what makes them feel good.

I expect that not all situation are the same. Perhaps it is amp depenandant and also the transparency of the source material.

Two Revel representatives stated that bi-amping can improve the clarity and were unsurprised by my experience. That carries more weight than internet consensus. If Bi-amping provides a benefit in a given system that is designed with good crossovers, then it will be provided via passive crossovers.

If I were crowd funding my system, I might let the internet make these decisions

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Oh, heck, every company says they suggest passive bi-amp and that it may improve the nuance, blah, blah, blah. Nothing new. It's been around for 30 years.

Passive bi-amp doesn't do anything for most people. But anything is possible.

Everyone is welcomed to believe passive bi-amp doesn't do anything and everyone is welcomed to believe it does something.

Just don't become an audio dealer. The minute you do, people will call you Snake Oil for sure the way you promote passive bi-amp and all amps sound significantly different.

But since you are not a dealer, you can believe anything with no problem at all.

Normally, dealers are less credible as they have a financial interest.

Since we are giving advice, keep your day job

- Rich

 

[PENG]

I thought when you remove the jumpers, all the drivers are still connected to the same crossover system. If the 3 woofers were disconnected from the crossover and the rest of the drivers, they would be ACTIVELY bi-amp.

The crossovers for each driver groups remain the same obviously but they will be electrically separated/isolated such that in biamping, one amp feeds the tweeter, or tweeter plus mids and the other feeds the bass drivers only, or one amp feeds the tweeter and the other amp feeds the mids and bass drivers, depending on the speaker's driver/crossover configurations. I am not saying that means anything audible though. Active biamping is quite different, and IMHO you can easily do worse with active, unless you know exactly what you are doing.

 

[PENG]

I expect that not all situation are the same. Perhaps it is amp depenandant and also the transparency of the source material.

Two Revel representatives stated that bi-amping can improve the clarity and were unsurprised by my experience. That carries more weight than internet consensus. If Bi-amping provides a benefit in a given system that is designed with good crossovers, then it will be provided via passive crossovers.

If I were crowd funding my system, I might let the internet make these decisions

- Rich

I would say that does not necessarily carries more weight than internet consensus, but most likely carries more weight than internet "hearsays". I am sure you know what I am trying to say without totally saying it..

 

[sharkman]

Rich, you say you have no special cables, just monoprice? My good man, get yourself some speaker cables that are small gauge solid core individually insulated. I'm begging you!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Rich, you say you have no special cables, just monoprice? My good man, get yourself some speaker cables that are small gauge solid core individually insulated. I'm begging you!

Wait! What? It's not April 1st yet. Get out of here!

 

[RichB]

Rich, you say you have no special cables, just monoprice? My good man, get yourself some speaker cables that are small gauge solid core individually insulated. I'm begging you!

I have the original Monster speaker cables which are copper color and do a pretty good job at disappearing on my hard wood floors. The ever-present WAF commands me.

I read the AH speaker cable article and could not figure out why the lower inductance provided by Kimber cable provided a sonic benefit.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Rich, you say you have no special cables, just monoprice? My good man, get yourself some speaker cables that are small gauge solid core individually insulated. I'm begging you!

Heck, even I have Kimber Kable.

Monoprice. Please. No wonder he's hearing all kinds of things. Probably something loose.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay. Here's the real question. Say you have one 300W amp (tweeter/mid/woofers) vs two 300W amps in a passive bi-amp (tweeter/mid + woofers).

How much more power can the woofers get in the passive bi-amp scenario?

I think the general consensus is that the woofer gets 90% of the total power.

So are we talking about 270W in the single-amp vs 300W in the passive bi-amp (if needed)?

Not much of a significant increase in power.

 

[RichB]

Heck, even I have Kimber Kable.

Monoprice. Please. No wonder he's hearing all kinds of things. Probably something loose.

I said Monster Cable. Locking banana plugs snuggly connect speakers and amps.

Not only can I hear but I can read too

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Okay. Here's the real question. Say you have one 300W amp (tweeter/mid/woofers) vs two 300W amps in a passive bi-amp (tweeter/mid + woofers).

How much more power can the woofers get in the passive bi-amp scenario?

I think the general consensus is that the woofer gets 90% of the total power.

So are we talking about 270W in the single-amp vs 300W in the passive bi-amp (if needed)?

Not much of a significant increase in power.

It's not about power. It's about sound changes that occur when the crossovers are isolated.
Listienng levels were in the Mid 80 DB level from 6 feet.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Okay. Here's the real question. Say you have one 300W amp (tweeter/mid/woofers) vs two 300W amps in a passive bi-amp (tweeter/mid + woofers).

How much more power can the woofers get in the passive bi-amp scenario?

I think the general consensus is that the woofer gets 90% of the total power.

So are we talking about 270W in the single-amp vs 300W in the passive bi-amp (if needed)?

Not much of a significant increase in power.

You are right about that on the power side of the equation but the alleged passive biamp benefits are more about the mid and high drivers getting cleaner signal, more free from the influence of the heavy current that flows to the bass drivers and the fact that the power amp that drives the mid/high only has to deliver the much lower mid/high frequency signal current. It is also more immune to any "counter emf" effects from the bass drivers. All such theoretical benefits may result in subtle difference if audible, but given the right/wrong combinations of components and events, it is possible that someone could hear more significant difference.

By the way, are your RBHs active and effectively bi-amped?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

By the way, are your RBHs active and effectively bi-amped?

The bass is 100% active bi-amp. The mid/treble are passive.

 

[sharkman]

I said Monster Cable. Locking banana plugs snuggly connect speakers and amps.

Not only can I hear but I can read too

- Rich

I'm pretty sure that's not small gauge solid conductors individually insulated. You are curious enough to experiment with bi-amping. The biggest improvement in my system ever was to take a chance and try this kind of cable. Don't listen to the naysayers, if you are really after improvement in your sound.

I've got an A21, Parasound Halo P7, Paradigm Signature S6 and an Oppo 95. I believe your system is also very revealing. You can buy Audioquest Type 4 in bulk, unterminated from AudioAdvisor for $5/ft, 16 feet for $80. Or the Type 8, which has more conductors. Just string it out temporarily and after your jaw drops put it away for the WAF factor. You will thank me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's not about power. It's about sound changes that occur when the crossovers are isolated.
Listing levels were in the Mid 80 DB level from 6 feet.

- Rich

Listing levels? You can read and write.

It's not about power? Now you're getting closer to snake oil talk.