Revel studio 2

[highfigh]

When you go to a live symphony or concerto, do you know what sounds good? Do you need any measurement to tell you that the sound of the instruments is crystal clear or not?

You compare the sound from your speakers to live instrument sounds. If they sound crystal clear like the live instruments, you don't need any measurement to tell you that.

That is why most of us just buy speakers that sound great in most rooms. We know what crystal clear real life instruments and vocals sound like. We don't need measurements if the speakers sound like that.

We only need measurements if the sound is NOT as good as real life sound - if there is something amiss.

I agree with a lot of your points, but in the case of a symphony, concerto or any live music, really- if it's not amplified, it's not really a valid comparison to REproducing music through speakers that are radiating only from the front. An acoustic instrument radiates sound from many spots, more or less, depending on the instrument. They're separated from the walls and ceiling by distances that we usually can't replicate in our listening rooms and because of this, the sense of space must be created using electronic devices or through mic placement and mixing. Also, the proportions of the performance space is designed to have a smooth response, unlike most living rooms, dens, etc.

Ignoring the acoustical differences in the room is a great way to become too frustrated to bother improving the system and that's why Audyssey, MCACC, YPao and other programs exist. If the room can't be changed, the speaker location can be and if the speaker location is fixed for some reason (WAF, design considerations, etc), the options are few- either live with it or make electronic adjustments.

The room is the one difference that most people will never address or change. It's also the determining factor in whether a speaker sounds good when the buyer takes it home, or not. There are few speakers that " sound great in most rooms". ALL will be affected by the room.

If RBH can do this, I'd really like to hear them. If you know of anyone in the Milwaukee area who has them, I'd like to know.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with a lot of your points, but in the case of a symphony, concerto or any live music, really- if it's not amplified, it's not really a valid comparison to REproducing music through speakers that are radiating only from the front. An acoustic instrument radiates sound from many spots, more or less, depending on the instrument. They're separated from the walls and ceiling by distances that we usually can't replicate in our listening rooms and because of this, the sense of space must be created using electronic devices or through mic placement and mixing. Also, the proportions of the performance space is designed to have a smooth response, unlike most living rooms, dens, etc.

Ignoring the acoustical differences in the room is a great way to become too frustrated to bother improving the system and that's why Audyssey, MCACC, YPao and other programs exist. If the room can't be changed, the speaker location can be and if the speaker location is fixed for some reason (WAF, design considerations, etc), the options are few- either live with it or make electronic adjustments.

The room is the one difference that most people will never address or change. It's also the determining factor in whether a speaker sounds good when the buyer takes it home, or not. There are few speakers that " sound great in most rooms". ALL will be affected by the room.

If RBH can do this, I'd really like to hear them. If you know of anyone in the Milwaukee area who has them, I'd like to know.

Whether the sound is amplified or not, your brain can tell if the sound is crystal clear vs muddy, echoing, thin, fatiguing, etc.

Can you tell? Or do you need some measurement to tell you whether the sound is crystal clear vs muddy, unclear, echoing, thin, fatiguing?

Wherever you are, whatever source is playing, can your brain tell if the bass is boomy or thin or distorted or if it is tight and musical? Or do you need a piece of measurement to tell you that?

Do you need a piece of paper or someone else to tell you that the sound you love is correct or incorrect?

 

[ski2xblack]

ADTG, you really need to have a fellow audioholic with measurement gear to come over to your home. You seem adverse to doing it yourself (I'm not sure why as one who regularly professes to follow evidence based audio), but in the spirit of pursuing the truth in audio/video (as is the subheading of this site), why poo poo it like you do? It comes across as kind of bull headed and dogmatic. Why not take full advantage of all available tools to optimize a system?

This place seems more and more about the sales game than the music. Maybe I should become a rep in order to fit in. I'll be a book rep in that case. Best audio tweak ever: Toole's book, combined with REW, and a bit of curiosity. You can buy it through a link at stonedeafaudio.com. Thanks for your business!

 

[highfigh]

Whether the sound is amplified or not, your brain can tell if the sound is crystal clear vs muddy, echoing, thin, fatiguing, etc.

Can you tell? Or do you need some measurement to tell you whether the sound is crystal clear vs muddy, unclear, echoing, thin, fatiguing?

Wherever you are, whatever source is playing, can your brain tell if the bass is boomy or thin or distorted or if it is tight and musical? Or do you need a piece of measurement to tell you that?

Do you need a piece of paper or someone else to tell you that the sound you love is correct or incorrect?

If your room isn't causing at least a small bit of trouble with the sound, either you designed it to be completely neutral, or you're extremely lucky. I have never been in a room that was neutral as soon as someone moved in.

I don't need test equipment or a piece of paper to tell me that a problem exists and if you had read my earlier comments, you would know that. Test equipment is for showing where the problem lies in the response and how severe it is. It also, as I posted, speeds up the process when someone is removing problems.

I'm done. You refuse to accept anyone else's opinions and methods, preferring to try to make us believe your speakers went in and sounded perfect immediately. The chance of that is very slim, but hey- we all believe what we want.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If your room isn't causing at least a small bit of trouble with the sound, either you designed it to be completely neutral, or you're extremely lucky. I have never been in a room that was neutral as soon as someone moved in.

I don't need test equipment or a piece of paper to tell me that a problem exists and if you had read my earlier comments, you would know that. Test equipment is for showing where the problem lies in the response and how severe it is. It also, as I posted, speeds up the process when someone is removing problems.

I'm done. You refuse to accept anyone else's opinions and methods, preferring to try to make us believe your speakers went in and sounded perfect immediately. The chance of that is very slim, but hey- we all believe what we want.

No, most speakers that are accurate (on & off-axis) usually sound great in most rooms with just your standard natural room attire (sofas, carpets, curtains, etc.). You may need to simply resposition the speakers a little, but usually not too drastic.

Now if you have rooms that echo (wood floors), then you do need to fix that (large rugs that cover most of the floor).

I'm certainly not the only one who believes this. Many people believe the same. Great speakers are designed to sound pretty great in most rooms.

You can choose to refuse to believe it.

 

[ski2xblack]

ADTG, I don't disbelieve what you wrote (speakers with smooth polar response play well in a variety of rooms), and I doubt any of us who use rta gear would either.

What you seem reluctant to believe is that actual audible improvements can be achieved by measuring response and addressing any sonic issues. Room modes happen, if you believe in them or not, and regardless of the pedigree of the speaker involved.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, I don't disbelieve what you wrote (speakers with smooth polar response play well in a variety of rooms), and I doubt any of us who use rta gear would either.

What you seem reluctant to believe is that actual audible improvements can be achieved by measuring response and addressing any sonic issues. Room modes happen, if you believe in them or not, and regardless of the pedigree of the speaker involved.

No. I'm saying no matter what the measurements show, I would go with the better sound regardless of how flat the measured response can be.

For example, Audyssey and other room corrections will improve the in-room response and make the FR flatter. Many pre and post graphs have shown this.

But in the end, I still prefer Bypass over any room correction even though Audyssey has the "better" flatter FR.

Sure, measurement can hypothetically help you improve the FR. I am not debating that.

What I'm saying is that I know what great SQ is and what bad SQ is.

And if what I'm hearing sounds as great or greater than real life sound, then I am perfectly happy with that without messing around with trying to achieve the flattest FR possible.

 

[Irvrobinson]

What I'm saying is that I know what great SQ is and what bad SQ is.

Translation: ADTG knows what he likes, and accuracy is irrelevant. I'm not being facetious with my translation; this is a very common position many audiophiles take. Many companies in many industries try to please consumers who aren't quite satisfied with reality. To name a few examples, Kodak and Fuji were both accused of increasing color saturation in photographic film to the point of near surrealism. BMW, among others, use either an acoustic pipe to inject intake manifold noise into car interiors, or lately even reproduce it through the car's audio system. Movie foley has for decades magnified nearly every noise, and made many up. Most live bands use sound reinforcement to make "live" mean only that the music is created live. Most popular recordings highlight vocals as if the singer is sitting right next to you, and the rest of the band is twenty feet away... I could go on and on, but many people feel unfulfilled by reality.

The only thing ADTG is guilty of is advocating his preference in a way that minimizes the importance of accuracy. He and I have argued this point before. I don't think trying to convince him of anything is productive; he likes what he likes, and that's that. It is difficult to argue that he shouldn't. I hate when people tell me I should like a dry red wine when I'd rather be drinking Diet Coke with a lime. More wine for you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Translation: ADTG knows what he likes, and accuracy is irrelevant. I'm not being facetious with my translation; this is a very common position many audiophiles take. Many companies in many industries try to please consumers who aren't quite satisfied with reality. To name a few examples, Kodak and Fuji were both accused of increasing color saturation in photographic film to the point of near surrealism. BMW, among others, use either an acoustic pipe to inject intake manifold noise into car interiors, or lately even reproduce it through the car's audio system. Movie foley has for decades magnified nearly every noise, and made many up. Most live bands use sound reinforcement to make "live" mean only that the music is created live. Most popular recordings highlight vocals as if the singer is sitting right next to you, and the rest of the band is twenty feet away... I could go on and on, but many people feel unfulfilled by reality.

The only thing ADTG is guilty of is advocating his preference in a way that minimizes the importance of accuracy. He and I have argued this point before. I don't think trying to convince him of anything is productive; he likes what he likes, and that's that. It is difficult to argue that he shouldn't. I hate when people tell me I should like a dry red wine when I'd rather be drinking Diet Coke with a lime. More wine for you.

No. Accuracy is NOT irrelevant. Attempting to get the in-room Frequency Response to look as FLAT as possible is irrelevant.

Those RBH speakers measure accurately by on Audioholics. I'm sure Gene thinks RBH speakers are very accurate.

I also liked the sound of all the speakers I owned, including Salon2, Orion3.2.1, KEF 201/2, TAD 2201, Phil3. They are all accurate.

I do enjoy my movies, TV shows, and music a lot more than trying to convince everyone else that my speakers are accurate or that my room is indeed good.

I think what I'm saying is that if people are completely happy with the sound of their speakers, they should just enjoy and not worry so much about spending more money to measure their rooms chasing that super flat requency response.

Do I need to spend another $100 to measure my room and confirm that I totally love the sound of my system and have utterly no desire to buy anything else? No, I don't.

 

[Irvrobinson]

No. Accuracy is NOT irrelevant. Attempting to get the in-room Frequency Response to look as FLAT as possible is irrelevant.

Those RBH speakers measure accurately by on Audioholics. I'm sure Gene thinks RBH speakers are very accurate.

I also liked the sound of all the speakers I owned, including Salon2, Orion3.2.1, KEF 201/2, TAD 2201, Phil3. They are all accurate.

I do enjoy my movies, TV shows, and music a lot more than trying to convince everyone else that my speakers are accurate or that my room is indeed good.

I think what I'm saying is that if people are completely happy with the sound of their speakers, they should just enjoy and not worry so much about spending more money to measure their rooms chasing that super flat requency response.

Do I need to spend another $100 to measure my room and confirm that I totally love the sound of my system and have utterly no desire to buy anything else? No, I don't.

Your position is incomprehensible and full of contradictions. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince of what, but I give up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your position is incomprehensible and full of contradictions. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince of what, but I give up.

Whom am I trying to convince?

I have absolutely no desire to convince you.

 

[bsf]

I bought the studio 2 and i also got a Fathom f212 sub

 

[Irvrobinson]

I bought the studio 2 and i also got a Fathom f212 sub

Nice choices. Have fun with them.

 

[bsf]

I probably went way overboard but oh well.... I considered the paradigm sub 1 as well ...
i also considered several other speakers too

 

[KEW]

Definitely nice gear!
Congrats!

 

[bsf]

While my wife thinks the sound does indeed sound better ( she thinks its nothing in major sound improvement) she thinks i have gone mad with money and is pissing it away..

 

[PENG]

If she thinks it sounds better it is already major. Congratulations!

 

[bsf]

im not exactly sure what i want todo....the revel studio + Fathom f212 will probably be my main audio system.... i have the monitor silver 8s and a rythmic f15 sub... i'll mostly likely be using the monitor 8s and the F15 for my home theater only.. .. but will probably add a second F15 sub... and i'll just get additional monitor silver speakers to complete my home theater.. thoughts?

 

[PENG]

im not exactly sure what i want todo....the revel studio + Fathom f212 will probably be my main audio system.... i have the monitor silver 8s and a rythmic f15 sub... i'll mostly likely be using the monitor 8s and the F15 for my home theater only.. .. but will probably add a second F15 sub... and i'll just get additional monitor silver speakers to complete my home theater.. thoughts?

I think that is a good idea. The MA speakers will be excellent for HT and I am sure many people are happy with them and a f15 in a serious 2 channel system as well. They are just outclassed by the Studios/JLs.

 

[bsf]

i also thought about just selling my MA speakers and Rhythmic sub and using the JL + REVEL as my HT and music ... i'll be honest i just bought lots of stuff but i have no experience or knowledge.. i just bought my first HI fI system a few months ago.. and I'm becoming addicted fast

i also consider the rhythmic for my music and the Fathom f212 for HT.. i guess i'll just have to experiment... the Fathom f212 was probably over kill and probably could have gotten away with the F112 then maybe just added a second F112 later if need be..