Center speakers for music - worth it?

[MonteMallin]

hello. I really appreciate the advice and thoughtfulness of the people here, so I'm coming at you once again.

I'm getting back into phono and have updated my receiver (Onkyo 626), speakers, and stylus. Enjoying listening to vinyl again but feel I could be getting more "oomph" from my system. As I am focused on music, I'm currently just going with two speakers set in Stereo mode. I may build up over time but right now that's where I'm at.

I see different views on the net about the value of a center speaker when the main objective is music, as opposed to full home theater. Will it help? How will the sound be impacted? Most people on the net seem to think that it wouldn't be worth it for just two channel music, but I'd like to hear what you folks have to say, given your expertise.

Thanks very much,

MrMonte

 

[JohnnieB]

Monte, I think you will find that most listen to music in 2ch. 2.1/2.2 etc. The only exception to that is music recorded in surround format. I don't know of too many, if any, vinyls recorded in surround. There is one other option, having fronts and rears playing stereo, but again this usually doesn't involve the center channel.
What do you mean by "oomph"? If its lack of a full sound, what speakers are you using? Subs?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

You don't need a center. Ether replace the front speakers and/or add a sub

 

[MonteMallin]

The speakers are pretty good -

Monte, I think you will find that most listen to music in 2ch. 2.1/2.2 etc. The only exception to that is music recorded in surround format. I don't know of too many, if any, vinyls recorded in surround. There is one other option, having fronts and rears playing stereo, but again this usually doesn't involve the center channel.
What do you mean by "oomph"? If its lack of a full sound, what speakers are you using? Subs?

Hi - I'm using Episode 700 speakers - here's a write up:
http://www.episodespeakers.com/images/merch/customer-lit/700_Bookshelf_Electronic_House_Rev.pdf

They're nice. I'm not using a "sub" and I'm not even sure what that is. Sorry to admit that. What is the full name - subwoofer speaker?

By more oomph, I just mean...more oomph all around. A stronger sound, but not just "louder," and not sacrificing clarity and detail. I think the equipment is there; I think the failure is on my part in getting the most out of it.

Any thoughts appreciated!

 

[MonteMallin]

You don't need a center. Ether replace the front speakers and/or add a sub

ok, I'll look into that. Thank you!

 

[MonteMallin]

btw, is ther such a thing as speaker "burn in?"

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

No burn-in bs here on AH. I'm still struggling with your vague explanation of oomph,but I think you are missing subwoofer in your life. Your speakers are rated down to respectable 35hz, HOWEVER it is at near useless - 6db. Most speakers are and should be rated at - 3db bass extension. This alone tells me the company likes to play loose with provided specs. I recently seen few reviews for element speakers, and they were good, but not great. Besides subwoofer you might want to try a home trial for different speakers like Ascend CMT340SE's. If you don't like them you can return them. As for sub - svs, Rythmic and hsu are my go to brands for musical subwoofer

 

[MonteMallin]

No burn-in bs here on AH. I'm still struggling with your vague explanation of oomph,but I think you are missing subwoofer in your life. Your speakers are rated down to respectable 35hz, HOWEVER it is at near useless - 6db. Most speakers are and should be rated at - 3db bass extension. This alone tells me the company likes to play loose with provided specs. I recently seen few reviews for element speakers, and they were good, but not great. Besides subwoofer you might want to try a home trial for different speakers like Ascend CMT340SE's. If you don't like them you can return them. As for sub - svs, Rythmic and hsu are my go to brands for musical subwoofer

I like this detail - thank you. I'm willing to give a sub a try. Will look into the brands you recommend. If there are any you like for the budget minded (under 100), pls let me know.

Thank you again, very appreciated!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Under $100 us? No, maybe try the second hand market (cl). Even somewhat decent dayton 1200 sub costs more.
I think you're headed for a rude awaking re: subwoofers prices.
Depends on room size (larger the room - the more power subs needs to be to pressurize it)
Nice ones only start at $500 and don't stop at 10k
http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p9/Funk_Audio_Subwoofer_-_18.2_-_Power_Level_2.html

More than that - in many cases you'd want 2 or more to better even the bass response (due to room modes)

 

[MonteMallin]

Under $100 us? No, maybe try the second hand market (cl). Even somewhat decent dayton 1200 sub costs more.
I think you're headed for a rude awaking re: subwoofers prices.
Depends on room size (larger the room - the more power subs needs to be to pressurize it)
Nice ones only start at $500 and don't stop at 10k
http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p9/Funk_Audio_Subwoofer_-_18.2_-_Power_Level_2.html

More than that - in many cases you'd want 2 or more to better even the bass response (due to room modes)

well luckily it's a small room!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Even for small room, smallest one I could recommend is this little guy:
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/m8.html

 

[MonteMallin]

thank you. I will give it some serious consideration. I may just end up waiting - the budget is limited. But I do get your point that this can be a costly purchase.

MM

 

[markw]

Monte, understand that speakers are a matter of opinion. a"good" speaker may be loved by some and loathed by others. It's a matter of what one likes, not what one is told to like.

These may be "good" speakers, at least as far as this reviewer says, but your ears simply don't respond the same as his does. Either that, or your expectation may be a bit too high for what they can deliver.

At this time, I think saving for a decent sub might be a great first step in your path towards sonic nirvana. At best, it will fill in the bottom end and satisfy your urge for oomph. At worst, you've got a leg up on your next set of speakers. A good sub is always a good thing to have.

 

[MonteMallin]

Monte, understand that speakers are a matter of opinion. a"good" speaker may be loved by some and loathed by others. It's a matter of what one likes, not what one is told to like.

These may be "good" speakers, at least as far as this reviewer says, but your ears simply don't respond the same as his does. Either that, or your expectation may be a bit too high for what they can deliver.

At this time, I think saving for a decent sub might be a great first step in your path towards sonic nirvana. At best, it will fill in the bottom end and satisfy your urge for oomph. At worst, you've got a leg up on your next set of speakers. A good sub is always a good thing to have.

Thank you Mark - as always. I'm going to look at options but not rush into anything. Your points are well taken. My budget is what it is though. I may have to settle for something less than ideal that would still get the job done. There's a Polk I'm considering (PSW-10).

Interesting that no one saw value to a 'center" speaker but I learned a lot about the value of the subwoofer. I'm glad I started this thread as I've received some great information.

You helped me with some info regarding bi-amping a while ago. I haven't done it. Think it's worth giving it a try?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Polk psw-10 is not what I consider decent sub. Save up the money till you could buy a decent one.

 

[MonteMallin]

Polk psw-10 is not what I consider decent sub. Save up the money till you could buy a decent one.

yeah you're probably right

 

[markw]

Don't waster your time, money, or effort with bi-amping, particularly where you are now in this hobby.

That Polk sub is barely OK but I'd suggest this for a starter sub. You can grow with it. I have one myself and it's well worth the price:

http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F12-475-Watt-Subwoofer/dp/B0015A8Y5M

It can be connected to any system with speaker outputs or a single LFE output.

 

[Seth=L]

Like others in this thread, I agree that adding a center channel will not add oomph. I've never been satisfied listening to 2 channel program in simulated surround. A properly placed set of stereo speakers will give you a distinct center stage that will sound much better than using a center channel to create that effect.

A subwoofer will add more extension and low end slam to your setup, but your dynamics are likely to be mostly hindered by your front speakers. I'm not familiar with the particular speaker system you're using, but bookshelf speakers are not typically as dynamic as their floor standing counter parts. There are bookshelf speakers out there that will have greater dynamic capability, for example products from Klipsch's Reference line may be worth a look. I know it's not currently part of your budget, but something to consider for later if you intend to stick with bookshelf speakers.

 

[3db]

Yes to the sub, no to a center channel. Adding a sub will improve slightly, the dynamics of your speakers.

 

[KEW]

The review from Electric House puts the frequency response as 52Hz to 23kHz, which is more in line with a ported 6.5" mid-woofer. For music, you would ideally get that down to 20-25Hz. With your budget, that's not going to happen. 30-35Hz is a more reasonable objective. While the difference between 30Hz and 53Hz may not sound like much, chances are your Episodes do not have the authority (headroom) within their lower range to properly handle the impact of a kick-drum.
You are really looking for a good woofer with out so much of the "sub" part. However, marketing being what it is, it will be called a sub-woofer.

My budget is what it is though. I may have to settle for something less than ideal that would still get the job done. There's a Polk I'm considering (PSW-10).

Please, please don't do this! If you do, you will think we are all a bunch of idiots for suggesting a sub!

You said:

A stronger sound, but not just "louder," and not sacrificing clarity and detail.

A sub like the PSW-10 is going to crap all over your clarity and detail! But it might be a good learning experience to pick one up from BestBuy if their return policy makes it free! I'm serious, you can learn a lot from a crappy sub!

Given your budget and desire to keep your sound as clean as possible, I think the Dayton Audio SUB-1000 is your best option (I assume you can stretch your budget by $10)
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1000-10-100-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-628

I have not heard this sub, but I have heard the SUB-1200 and am very happy with the amount of restraint it exhibits (most $100 ported subs go bonkers when the tuned-port frequency is excited). Since the PE reviews are as high for the SUB-1000 as the SUB-1200, I think it is safe to expect it represents a similar value.

Here is Jman's review of the larger SUB-1200:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

I can only comment on the SUB-1200 since I have heard it, but the beauty of this design is it is balanced and composed within its capability and doesn't pitch a fit if you try to push it beyond it's limits (it limits its capability to what it can do, instead of trying to "fake" it). If you buy it to vibrate your room for explosions, you will be disappointed because it doesn't dump gobs of indiscriminate energy into your room (the PSW-10 is likely better by this measure), but for music it adds thump without getting in the way of your speakers.

You will not mistake it for a real kick-drum in your room, but the difference will have you doing double-takes and put a smile on your face when you have those "that's different" moments!

Edit - If your budget is really tight, there is also the $96 ($6 to ship - shipping was free on the 1000) SUB-800. It is very well respected by the Parts Express crowd and an 8" sub can add a lot to 6.5" speakers that are trying to cover all of the midrange and bass.