Center speakers for music - worth it?

[walter duque]

I don't know what oomph you expect from a 6.5" driver, but adding dual subs would be the way to go. You need a good sub not just any fart box. Start with one and later get another. Spend at least $500.00 on each, don't waste your money on a cheap one. Two things spend money on: power amps and the best subs you wallet can handle, these two components you will own the longest. BTW no center needed.

 

[Seth=L]

I don't know what oomph you expect from a 6.5" driver, but adding dual subs would be the way to go. You need a good sub not just any fart box. Start with one and later get another. Spend at least $500.00 on each, don't waste your money on a cheap one. Two things spend money on: power amps and the best subs you wallet can handle, these two components you will own the longest. BTW no center needed.

I don't disagree here, at all. Breaking the bad habit of spending as little as possible is difficult to do. I made a realization the other day that with all the money I've spent over the last 10 years on petty equipment (hundreds of speakers, I kid you not) that I likely could have bought a pair of Thiel CS3.7s easily by now and the appropriate equipment to run them. For those that aren't aware, those speakers retail/retailed in the neighborhood of $8k. That is a lot of money for speakers IMO, but If I can show restraint, save my money, wait and wait a little longer, then I just may be able to get exactly what I wanted. It doesn't matter if this takes a few years to achieve, don't sell yourself short.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I don't disagree here, at all. Breaking the bad habit of spending as little as possible is difficult to do. I made a realization the other day that with all the money I've spent over the last 10 years on petty equipment (hundreds of speakers, I kid you not) that I likely could have bought a pair of Thiel CS3.7s easily by now and the appropriate equipment to run them. For those that aren't aware, those speakers retail/retailed in the neighborhood of $8k. That is a lot of money for speakers IMO, but If I can show restraint, save my money, wait and wait a little longer, then I just may be able to get exactly what I wanted. It doesn't matter if this takes a few years to achieve, don't sell yourself short.

Despite decent income we had over last few years, only last year we decided to splurge on decent home. (prior to that living in crammed NY 1 bedroom apt)
its not a castle, but then again we don't like castles - too windy . Same goes for car and same applies to hobby stuff like HT. My next speakers should not be marginally better, i want to be blown away before I decide its time for upgrade. Speaking of $8k speakers - sooner or later Salk Soundscape 8 will be mine.

 

[MonteMallin]

You guys are great. I am reading and pondering these comments and really appreciate them!

In an ideal world I would save up and go for a more audiophile level quality. But then I suppose I'd have to upgrade everything else and I'm not looking to do that right now. I also have to balance my desire for a really good, impactful experience with my music with the realities of my budget. Obviously, I care enough about my music to make the upgrades that I've been making, and to come here and seek your sagacious advice. But I don't have the room or the expendable resources to start spending in the thousands, so I think for me the best strategy is good upgrades that don't break the bank, knowing that even if my music experience is less than ideal, it will still be very strong and greatly improved from where I was before.

So I think I am going to make the plunge, and based on the great feedback here, I can say that it will NOT be the Polk!

I think it comes down to the BIC America F-12 and the Dayton Audio Sub-1000. Given my speakers, which to me sound quite nice, any thoughts on which would be the best fit would be appreciated. More to the point, any thoughts on which of these two is the way to go just based on general impressions would also be appreciated!

Note: I have a Yamaha YST SW015 set up with my AV system in a different part of the house, and I think I'll give that a try for a bit, just to get the sub-woofer experience and see how them impact the stereo sound. Any thoughts?

Thank you again - I really appreciate all your insights! I do love music and interacting with you guys is really helpful and enjoyable.

Monte

 

[MonteMallin]

I don't disagree here, at all. Breaking the bad habit of spending as little as possible is difficult to do. I made a realization the other day that with all the money I've spent over the last 10 years on petty equipment (hundreds of speakers, I kid you not) that I likely could have bought a pair of Thiel CS3.7s easily by now and the appropriate equipment to run them. For those that aren't aware, those speakers retail/retailed in the neighborhood of $8k. That is a lot of money for speakers IMO, but If I can show restraint, save my money, wait and wait a little longer, then I just may be able to get exactly what I wanted. It doesn't matter if this takes a few years to achieve, don't sell yourself short.

Seth - I do know what you mean. I am also an enthusiast for In Ear Monitors (IEMs). I like the challenge of testing new ones and keep most of them. I like hunting down great sound for say, under $150. To me that's a fun part of the IEM experience. However, I do sometimes think, if I had just bought one great pair for $400.00 or so, I would have saved a lot of money over time. So I totally know where you are coming from. But I can't resist the challenge!

Just a different perspective....

Monte

 

[afterlife2]

As KEW said get the Dayton 1200 or 1500(for a big room) it's a good sub. I really like my 1200 for my music setup.

 

[MonteMallin]

As KEW said get the Dayton 1200 or 1500(for a big room) it's a good sub. I really like my 1200 for my music setup.

Thanks. It does seem to be pretty good and well regarded!

 

[afterlife2]

I reread and see you have a small room like mine. The 1200 will rock you good. If you wanna do a 5.1 surround movies later on look at SVS PB1000 ($500) or the 8 inch Outlaw sub(I had one but it got ruined in a storm) Bored suggested. It's a great sub for it's size in a small or medium size room. Good luck and be sure to show your setup pics when you are done.

 

[MonteMallin]

I reread and see you have a small room like mine. The 1200 will rock you good. If you wanna do a 5.1 surround movies later on look at SVS PB1000 ($500) or the 8 inch Outlaw sub(I had one but it got ruined in a storm) Bored suggested. It's a great sub for it's size in a small or medium sub. Good luck and be sure to show your setup pics when you are done.

Thanks. I saw that note you had about Sandy. That must have been a horrible experience all around - let alone the loss of stereo equipment!

Advice appreciated.

 

[markw]

Understanding your financial situation (Trust me, you ain't alone), that Dayton for $130 will probably go a long way to putting a smile on your face and see you through the time needed to think about upgrading your main speakers, which would be your next logical step.

Is it your beat ever sub? No. Is it as good as an Hsu or SVS? No. But, it's good enough to provide some needed "oomph" to your current speakers without breaking the bank and you won't feel bad when you outgrow it for one of the big boys You'll probably be able to pass it down to some other young 'un just starting out in audio and has financial difficulties.

 

[MonteMallin]

Thanks Mark.

I like your comment about "some other" young 'un. At 54, I'm not sure I qualify!

 

[markw]

Thanks Mark.

I like your comment about "some other" young 'un. At 54, I'm not sure I qualify!

At my age, you do.

Seriously, there's always someone coming up behind you in this hobby who could use a hand.

 

[MonteMallin]

At my age, you do.

Seriously, there's always someone coming up behind you in this hobby who could use a hand.

For sure. I'm a big believer, btw, in paying it forward. So I'm with you all the way.

 

[psbfan9]

Hi MonteMallin, I'm a little late the party and you have had some great advice I wanted to mention the sale that SVS is having on a great sub. I'm not sure of your budget, but at $469.99 this is a great deal.

http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/SB12-NSD

 

[MonteMallin]

Hi MonteMallin, I'm a little late the party and you have had some great advice I wanted to mention the sale that SVS is having on a great sub. I'm not sure of your budget, but at $469.99 this is a great deal.

http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/SB12-NSD

Thank you. It IS unfortunately out of my price range, but I appreciate your mentioning it.

Monte

 

[KEW]

I have not heard the BIC, so really cannot say how good it compares to the SUB-1200.
If we look at Jman's review of BIC's more expensive H-100II, we see a resonance that is still ~80dB 50ms after the pulse:
Briefly, the vertical axis is frequency, the horizontal is time. A pulse is played and the duration of the signal is measured. I am not sure what the pulse duration is, but you want the sub to shut up as quickly as possible once the pulse is over. The colorful vertical bar to the right of the image is used to show how loud the signal is (for example bright yellow is 80dB).

Full review:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/87625-bic-acoustech-h-100ii-subwoofer-review.html

The SUB-1200 is ~70dB by 50ms!

Full review:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/71766-dayton-audio-sub-1200-subwoofer-review.html

As a comparison, we can look at the $500 SVS PB-1000:

That's right! The SUB-1200 has less overhang than the SVS! The ~22Hz port tuning is a little too resonant for my taste. The SVS may dominate the SUB-1200 for both extension and max SPL, but I would rather listen to the SUB-1200! In your smallish room, the SUB-1200 will give you the volume you need.

So you can see why I like the SUB-1200 so much!

For comparison, here is what I consider to be one of the tightest subs out there, the Rythmik E15HP:

You can see the SPL is below 80dB within ~5ms!

Note: Both the BIC and SUB-1200 have separate images for the port and the driver while the SVS and the Rythmik charts combine them (actually the Rythmik has no port). I really did not want to overly complicate this post by adding two more charts and this explanation. My comments are all still valid if you check the port charts (I posted the driver charts).

 

[MonteMallin]

Thank you, KEW for this definitive (at least to me) analysis, though I'd be lying if I said I completely understood it.

You guys have convinced me. The sub-1200 is the next step on my journey.

 

[afterlife2]

Read up on these before you get the 1200: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup
and
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Vi9QcEfDOl2/learn/blogs/av_tips/archive/2007/03/30/The-Audio-Files.aspx
and
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/down-in-the-corner-tips-on-how-not-to-set-up-that-subwoofer-you-just-bought/
and
http://stereos.about.com/od/systemsetup/tp/Best-Subwoofer-Performance.htm

 

[MonteMallin]

Read up on these before you get the 1200: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup
and
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Vi9QcEfDOl2/learn/blogs/av_tips/archive/2007/03/30/The-Audio-Files.aspx
and
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/down-in-the-corner-tips-on-how-not-to-set-up-that-subwoofer-you-just-bought/
and
http://stereos.about.com/od/systemsetup/tp/Best-Subwoofer-Performance.htm

some good references here. I know placement is tricky - this helps. Thank you!

 

[herbu]

I see different views on the net about the value of a center speaker when the main objective is music

Monte, I agree w/ the advice here. Let me add a little bit about why everyone says "no" on the Center for music.

Most music is mastered in stereo. By "most", I mean probably 99.x%. Every album and most CDs. Selection is limited and price is high for CDs mastered in 5 or 7 channels.

If your goal is to get the most accurate reproduction of your source, that necessarily means stereo. If you use a stereo source and select Dolby PLIIx, or DTS NEO, or some other "theater mode" on your receiver for playback, your AVR will artificially separate the music into channels, including what goes to your Center. So no matter how good your Center speaker is, it is getting an artificial signal that combines elements of your Front Left/Right.

So I agree, for music, your most critical components are your Front L/R speakers. If your L/R are not extremely capable, the next most critical component is a good subwoofer.