Anybody familiar with Rythmik subs?

[Acoustat]

I agree with what 3db said, but wanted to make sure since I could.
I just checked to confirm using AVR-X4000 (with front speakers set to small and sub mode set to LFE) feeding the LFE Inputs on my E15HP subs.
Using a CD (music only) as source, subs are playing bass. Using BluRay player, subs played bass during intro music and music within scenes of movie.

Thanks KEW for taking the time to be relevant to my situation/inquiry, and run a test on music and BRD.

As I understand it, the LFE input on the subs totally bypasses the crossover (high pass filter) of the sub so the AVR controls all bass management functions.
The subs are new to me, but my understanding is I am better off using the line level input and setting crossover to the highest value (120Hz) because I am using the AVR with crossover at 80Hz. This way, the sub is not wasting energy trying to reproduce any line noise above 120Hz as it would via LFE input. My AVR will still control all bass management since it has filtered out the low frequencies well before they reach 120Hz.

These subs were apparently designed for typical cases of crossover at ~80Hz or lower, then the LFE input was recently added to amp panel to allow higher frequency crossover with AVR performing Bass Management.

I know some of what I say above is not relevant to your situation, but think the better idea you have of the sub controls when you talk with him, the easier it will be to follow what he is saying.

Are you saying that with your AVR bass mgt set to 80Hz, and the LFE used, that the sub will try to reproduce
frequencies, that bass mgt has filtered out already, but the fact that you're in LFE mode, the sub will try to do higher?
That's weird.

I need 4 subwoofers. 2 passive off of my mains
and 2 active off the AVR. That there would be the perfect world.
Now I'm making an attempt to cover all those bases with a single sub
Thanks for the feedback guys!

 

[Acoustat]

Just got a reply. Earlier Enrico said 3000 cf, but here's the summary.

In that size of room (4000 cf) with preference for movies I would go for the FV15HP night and day. If you use LFE IN you can crossover at 100Hz without any problem. The only problem crossing over 100Hz is that the bass frequencies are localizable. That’s why we always recommend to crossover below 80Hz or get two subwoofers.

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
Rythmik Audio – Tech Support

 

[KEW]

Are you saying that with your AVR bass mgt set to 80Hz, and the LFE used, that the sub will try to reproduce
frequencies, that bass mgt has filtered out already, but the fact that you're in LFE mode, the sub will try to do higher?
That's weird.

No once the AVR filters it out from the signal to sub, it is gone. What I am saying is that if your line level cable is long or is close to strong signals (such as high level speaker cables) there is a little noise from interference that gets in the signal. If I turn the volume up with source off, I can hear/sense a slight low frequency rumble from the sub through the regular input, but I get more of a low + mid frequency white noise with the LFE input. This is pretty academic, Noise levels are not an issue in use at the levels Audyssey has you set the sub to.

 

[3db]

Hey thanks for the pictures. I hadn't seen them yet on their website. Those look to be super for music.
I believe Brian said they will extend to 20Hz, which for HT, IMO, isn't really worth it.
I'd love to have a pair for music

So if bass mgt sends musical bass ~90Hz (or whatever) to LFE, Brian should've filled in that big gap in my head with this information.
I feel like a got a bad hair cut and it shows . This is good news, and actually, back to the chalkboard...

.

Don't be too hard on Brian. Its hard to fill in the gaps when you have their depth of knowledge. The thing is.. if you don't get it, keep asking him and he'll get you straightened out. These guys are truly the best

 

[Acoustat]

No once the AVR filters it out from the signal to sub, it is gone. What I am saying is that if your line level cable is long or is close to strong signals (such as high level speaker cables) there is a little noise from interference that gets in the signal. If I turn the volume up with source off, I can hear/sense a slight low frequency rumble from the sub through the regular input, but I get more of a low + mid frequency white noise with the LFE input. This is pretty academic, Noise levels are not an issue in use at the levels Audyssey has you set the sub to.

Ahhh, gotchya. I did make sure to get double insulated 15' sub cable, but I understand your thoughts of close proximity.

Don't be too hard on Brian. Its hard to fill in the gaps when you have their depth of knowledge. The thing is.. if you don't get it, keep asking him and he'll get you straightened out. These guys are truly the best

LOL I was dissing myself with the bad haircut showing my ignorance, or lack of sub experience beyond the Klipsch I got with my Mac PC.
Brian's hard to get ahold of sometimes We covered a lot of bases on the tele. Enough to make me even more dangerous

 

[Acoustat]

Well after another long conversation with Brian, he really wants me to get the F15 HP sealed sub
even though I repeated more than once that for music, I'm pretty good not using the sub.
His input is based 100% on the fact that my mains are ESLs, profiling me as musical.

He went on to say that there's isn't a lot of difference between their vented and sealed
yet in "profiling me", and wanting to match musically with my ESLs, he said the vented subs
tend to smear (note: this as you know is coming from Brians ear, need I say more?) some bass
where the sealed, more meticulously articulates more accurately (as do quality ESLs).
Brian also said he uses a sealed 15 in a 20 x 20xI think he said the ceiling is 14'.
Perhaps he uses 2 subs, I think he said "a 15 sealed sub".
He thinks I'll be more pleased with the subs sound, if I cross at 60-80Hz…
also, though in LFE mode they can reproduce above 100Hz, localizing can occur, and more so
with a larger driver, giving the wavelength more "girth" so to say, and the SQ in a larger driver
above 80Hz is degraded. So if the SQ drops where I'm crossing, a sealed sub will be less "smeared".
In attempting to liken the smearing to something, he suggested that some bass may sound/appear
to have a tail.

I…have no experience with subs, so I will probably be astounded and satisfied with either.
+ing an F15 HP to my cart. I have 30 days to be satisfied, and I forgot to ask break in time KEW, sorry.
I will, I promise.

 

[3db]

Well after another long conversation with Brian, he really wants me to get the F15 HP sealed sub
even though I repeated more than once that for music, I'm pretty good not using the sub.
His input is based 100% on the fact that my mains are ESLs, profiling me as musical.

He went on to say that there's isn't a lot of difference between their vented and sealed
yet in "profiling me", and wanting to match musically with my ESLs, he said the vented subs
tend to smear (note: this as you know is coming from Brians ear, need I say more?) some bass
where the sealed, more meticulously articulates more accurately (as do quality ESLs).
Brian also said he uses a sealed 15 in a 20 x 20xI think he said the ceiling is 14'.
Perhaps he uses 2 subs, I think he said "a 15 sealed sub".
He thinks I'll be more pleased with the subs sound, if I cross at 60-80Hz…
also, though in LFE mode they can reproduce above 100Hz, localizing can occur, and more so
with a larger driver, giving the wavelength more "girth" so to say, and the SQ in a larger driver
above 80Hz is degraded. So if the SQ drops where I'm crossing, a sealed sub will be less "smeared".
In attempting to liken the smearing to something, he suggested that some bass may sound/appear
to have a tail.

I…have no experience with subs, so I will probably be astounded and satisfied with either.
+ing an F15 HP to my cart. I have 30 days to be satisfied, and I forgot to ask break in time KEW, sorry.
I will, I promise.

There's no harm in kicking the tires on a sealed 15" sub. I'm very curious how you are going to find the sound.

 

[KEW]

No worries on the break-in time. You are staying focused on the things you should be!

What are the rough dimensions of your room?

BTW, the electrostatic speakers I heard and liked so much were Martin Logan Summit X:

http://www.martinlogan.com/products/summitx

They are the only ELS I have heard.

The F15HP is no push over for HT, but assuming your ELS have the same qualities of the ones I heard, you will have an incredibly accurate presentation for music.
I think with the ELS, any "smearing" would stand out like a sore thumb...and it needs to be said again that Rythmik's ported subs are not in the least sloppy, but Brian is a perfectionist and has a keen ear.

 

[KEW]

As I understand it, the LFE input on the subs totally bypasses the crossover (high pass filter) of the sub so the AVR controls all bass management functions.

Just caught this!
Should read "the LFE input on the subs totally bypasses the crossover (low pass filter) of the sub"
I lied - just doing my part to sustain your bad hair cut!!!

 

[Acoustat]

There's no harm in kicking the tires on a sealed 15" sub. I'm very curious how you are going to find the sound.

Ha, you and me both!!!

No worries on the break-in time. You are staying focused on the things you should be!

What are the rough dimensions of your room?

BTW, the electrostatic speakers I heard and liked so much were Martin Logan Summit X:

http://www.martinlogan.com/products/summitx

They are the only ELS I have heard.

The F15HP is no push over for HT, but assuming your ELS have the same qualities of the ones I heard, you will have an incredibly accurate presentation for music.
I think with the ELS, any "smearing" would stand out like a sore thumb...and it needs to be said again that Rythmik's ported subs are not in the least sloppy, but Brian is a perfectionist and has a keen ear.

At 15K those ML speakers should sound amazing. I've read one article on ESL's that curved panels suffer
in a particular area musically, and I cannot remember what it was. However, The older ML ESLs
had either no curvature or slight, so they have had to have figured out something for such tight arcs in their panels.

One thing I'm seeing in the specs of those Summit X is vertical dispersion and panel area that I would have to hear
before I dissed them. As you said, when you stood up, the sound field collapsed. There's only one ESL I'm aware of
that overcomes a sweet spot crux…Muraudio

https://muraudio.com

…but starting @ $58K, oh, never mind. I haven't hit the lottery yet.

The Acoustat Spectras, have a screw on the back, that allows you to tilt the panels
back for standing or anywhere in between. I cannot access many specs but pretty sure they cover 20-20+ FR.
They have 3 panels 9x46" (total 27 x 46) each ch, compared to the Summit Panel Dimensions 44" × 11.3" each ch
and flat vs curved. So dollar for dollar, Acoustat has the best bang for the buck I know of.

Just caught this!
Should read "the LFE input on the subs totally bypasses the crossover (low pass filter) of the sub"
I lied - just doing my part to sustain your bad hair cut!!!

No worries, the difference between a bad and a good hair cut is...
2-3 weeks
Oh, and room dimensions ~3100 cf more without furniture and fireplace.
The fireplace is a crux, of sub placement. I creates a 3 sided box, behind my FR main.
Room is 28 x ~15 x avg 8' ceiling. To the left of the FL main is a 6.5' wide arch way that
opens into a ~2400-2500 cf kitchen. Between the 3 sided box, and this arch way, is the staging area
(off centre of the room) long walls at front and back. So staging is 40% of the R end of the room.
There should be pics of the room in my folder, but I don't see the images since the last site update.

 

[Acoustat]

The new Rythmik F15HP blends seamlessly with the panels save for some localization.
Cancellation is my biggest concern though ATM. Still a lot of homework to do.
When I play a clip of 16Hz test tone, I'm getting some, noise, in my surrounds
all 4 drivers, each. Not sure about the centre and mains though if they have the noise or not.

Using Line in 1st with multiple crossovers different for each speaker per Audyssey set up.

 

[slipperybidness]

Ahhh, gotchya. I did make sure to get double insulated 15' sub cable, but I understand your thoughts of close proximity.

LOL I was dissing myself with the bad haircut showing my ignorance, or lack of sub experience beyond the Klipsch I got with my Mac PC.
Brian's hard to get ahold of sometimes We covered a lot of bases on the tele. Enough to make me even more dangerous

Yeah, I had the opportunity to meet him and talk face to face for about an hour.

It's obvious that he is "one of us" in many regards. In other words, he is passionate about his work.

I have the F15HP, but I really chose that one for 2 reasons: The FV15 would not fit in the space I have available for a sub, and I got a sweet deal on B stock F15HP.

Hey, have you noticed the F25
http://rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

 

[Acoustat]

Yeah, I had the opportunity to meet him and talk face to face for about an hour.

It's obvious that he is "one of us" in many regards. In other words, he is passionate about his work.

I have the F15HP, but I really chose that one for 2 reasons: The FV15 would not fit in the space I have available for a sub, and I got a sweet deal on B stock F15HP.

Hey, have you noticed the F25
http://rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

Yes, 2 15" drivers. I wanted to stick with a single, since I plan on a second unit down the road
and 2 25's would be rather wasteful for my needs.

Brian spent a great deal of time with me on the tele, over an hour 2 conversations combined.
I took his valuable input and went with the F15HP, but cannot help but wonder, if his profiling me
could've been off a tad. Not having the FV version, I'll never know. So far so good, have not watched any movies
yet, nor tweaked anything. Placement is off for the time being, so tweaking will have to be temporary.
I really have more of a nightmare of placement issues, all speakers, than I thought when I began this quest.
The centre channel has the best placement, other than that, gotta wing it and go with it best I can.
So, what are your thoughts on this SW? Running a single?

 

[KEW]

So, what are your thoughts on this SW? Running a single?

Running a single versus duals depends on your room more than anything else. If the single's location relative to the listening position happens to be good, then adding a second does little. On the otherhand, if you are interested in even distribution of good bass, the second becomes important at averaging out the room effects.
For HT, the F15HP is no wimp! I'm sure if you had the FV next to it you would feel a difference, but unless you have a friend who has a very well equipped HT, You will have better LFE than anything you have ever heard short of the movie theater.

 

[Acoustat]

Running a single versus duals depends on your room more than anything else. If the single's location relative to the listening position happens to be good, then adding a second does little. On the otherhand, if you are interested in even distribution of good bass, the second becomes important at averaging out the room effects.
For HT, the F15HP is no wimp! I'm sure if you had the FV next to it you would feel a difference, but unless you have a friend who has a very well equipped HT, You will have better LFE than anything you have ever heard short of the movie theater.

I certainly hope so LFE is really what I was looking for, but really, though discerning musical listening will comprise
of a much smaller percentage, when I do listen to music, I want it right errr accurate.

I know I can say this much so far, it is most excellent to be able to play Kitaro's "God of Thunder"
without my panels discharging with an increase in SPL. Scares the cats, but their vote doesn't count.
It's the bass drums I'm eluding to there, and it is localised somewhat, but good. So yes, musically, with current placement
a second sub would even the bass out.

I was curious of slipperybidness experience with his F15HP, if he was running single or not
and his take on satisfaction with it since that was not mentioned.

 

[KEW]

I certainly hope so LFE is really what I was looking for, but really, though discerning musical listening will comprise
of a much smaller percentage, when I do listen to music, I want it right errr accurate.

I know I can say this much so far, it is most excellent to be able to play Kitaro's "God of Thunder"
without my panels discharging with an increase in SPL. Scares the cats, but their vote doesn't count.
It's the bass drums I'm eluding to there, and it is localised somewhat, but good. So yes, musically, with current placement a second sub would even the bass out.

Hey Acoustat,
How is the sub working out for you? Any thoughts or regrets?

 

[Acoustat]

Hey Acoustat,
How is the sub working out for you? Any thoughts or regrets?

I'm loving it. Thanks for all your helps along the way KEW!
Original Jurassic Park is my go to 3D BRD to show off the system.
The growl of T Rex at the perimeter fence and blast/yell is fantastic.
On the other hand, I was disappointed with something, with the "A" bomb
explosion on Planet of the Apes. Now this disappointment could fully be in
the recording, and I could only reproduce that. Would like to experience that
with both, the F15 and the FV15 to see if it's on my end or not.

I cannot at this time in space, given my income, justify buying a 2nd sub
just to help with a little localisation. A little, is key here. I may even be able
to address that, tweaking the crossover points, but all in all, I made a great choice.
I've also added security monitoring and just bought an 8ch HD video surveillance
DVR kit, with both 720p and 1080p cameras. Other than a few movies, and CDs,
and making a short platform for each of the ML 40 surrounds, I'm set for a while.

I must mention, my expectations have been fully met using the ML Motion 40's as surrounds.
It's awesome having surrounds that can handle typical robust bass, and sweet tweeters.
Compared to the Acoustats, the mid range may be slightly coloured, but that's being critical.
The ML Motion 50XT centre speaker is good enough that most evenings, we use 3.1 sound
and skip the mains altogether.

Added an optical cable to the TVs only audio out, so we can stream TV, HULU, NetFlix
anything a smart TV can stream, to the AVR. It by far, is dwarfed by the BRP and CD!!!

 

[KEW]

Excellent! Thanks for the followup. Good to know you've got it all setup and enjoying it - that is what it is about!

Not familiar with Planet of the Apes, but I know the FV15 will put more low frequency energy in your room, so it is reasonable to expect it would be more satisfying in that role. However, the F15HP is no wimp!

My concern with the FV15 is that it would slightly color the bass as you comment about the ML coloring the midrange. But realistically, that would not often be noticed with HT.

Are you getting much music play? I hope I did not erroneously talk you into going sealed because of my own emphasis on music.

On the other hand, I really believe the combination of your Accustat speakers and the sealed Rythmik give you some amazing detail. Does the F15 have enough output to play as loud as you want for music in your room?

Since you are streaming to from your Smart TV, you may want to set up a Pandora account, so you can have background (or foreground) music in your home when you are not watching. It is free and they seem to have some good rules on the ads, because the ads seem to be talk only and last about 30seconds. I find it easy not to notice the ads. You can set the Denon to associate "multi-channel stereo" when you hit the blue "game" button (assuming you do not use it for gaming) this will send the stereo signal to your mains and surrounds so you want miss your Accustat sweet spot quite so much.

Just some thoughts...

Thanks again for the update and enjoy!

Cheers,
Kurt

 

[3db]

I'm loving it. Thanks for all your helps along the way KEW!
Original Jurassic Park is my go to 3D BRD to show off the system.
The growl of T Rex at the perimeter fence and blast/yell is fantastic.
On the other hand, I was disappointed with something, with the "A" bomb
explosion on Planet of the Apes. Now this disappointment could fully be in
the recording, and I could only reproduce that. Would like to experience that
with both, the F15 and the FV15 to see if it's on my end or not.

I cannot at this time in space, given my income, justify buying a 2nd sub
just to help with a little localisation. A little, is key here. I may even be able
to address that, tweaking the crossover points, but all in all, I made a great choice.
I've also added security monitoring and just bought an 8ch HD video surveillance
DVR kit, with both 720p and 1080p cameras. Other than a few movies, and CDs,
and making a short platform for each of the ML 40 surrounds, I'm set for a while.

I must mention, my expectations have been fully met using the ML Motion 40's as surrounds.
It's awesome having surrounds that can handle typical robust bass, and sweet tweeters.
Compared to the Acoustats, the mid range may be slightly coloured, but that's being critical.
The ML Motion 50XT centre speaker is good enough that most evenings, we use 3.1 sound
and skip the mains altogether.

Added an optical cable to the TVs only audio out, so we can stream TV, HULU, NetFlix
anything a smart TV can stream, to the AVR. It by far, is dwarfed by the BRP and CD!!!

Play the first 2 minutes of this flick to give you an indication at what the sub can do. WARNING...play it at low levels first and inch them up because it has destroyed a lot of subs.

I felt the bass pound my chest in my modest set-up.


I'm glad you are satisfied with your sub.

 

[Acoustat]

Excellent! Thanks for the followup. Good to know you've got it all setup and enjoying it - that is what it is about!
Yes it is, and I appreciate your, and several others helps, and inputs along the way
and not getting all pizzy about it. I've gone over budget a little, above the cost of the
Bose Acoustimass 10 system I originally was considering at nearly every turn with each
additional piece I've added
Not familiar with Planet of the Apes, but I know the FV15 will put more low frequency energy in your room, so it is reasonable to expect it would be more satisfying in that role. However, the F15HP is no wimp!

My concern with the FV15 is that it would slightly color the bass as you comment about the ML coloring the midrange. But realistically, that would not often be noticed with HT.
Well, the ML M40's use a cone for mids and lows, and I am of the opinion that most cones in the attainable price range, are going to add colour to the likes of a flat ESL panel.
It was a critique that many may find unwarranted. The ML M40's fit my bill 100% I am satisfied with them, though the 60's were more to my liking, they were also out of my "budget"

Are you getting much music play? I hope I did not erroneously talk you into going sealed because of my own emphasis on music.
You did not erroneously lead me astray in any way. Brian took a good deal of time trying
to steer me in the sealed direction, and you have one, so it was a bolster to Brians' reasoning.

No, other than BRP, and an occasional CD, my music time has not had a chance to increase.
I have Simply Reds Farewell Live at the Sydney Opera House on DVD, and it's amazing.
I believe the recording to be a step above David Gilmours Live at Royal Albert Hall
(Remember that Night) as far as clarity is concerned. Both are great and on BRD.

On the other hand, I really believe the combination of your Accustat speakers and the sealed Rythmik give you some amazing detail. Does the F15 have enough output to play as loud as you want for music in your room?
Yes! I get the SPL now, where that normally would discharge in the bass panels and limit my SPL.
Again, Audyssey sees my mains as full spectrum, which bolsters my claim that they easily run the
gambit of 20Hz-20KHz and probably then some.

Since you are streaming to from your Smart TV, you may want to set up a Pandora account, so you can have background (or foreground) music in your home when you are not watching. It is free and they seem to have some good rules on the ads, because the ads seem to be talk only and last about 30seconds. I find it easy not to notice the ads. You can set the Denon to associate "multi-channel stereo" when you hit the blue "game" button (assuming you do not use it for gaming) this will send the stereo signal to your mains and surrounds so you want miss your Accustat sweet spot quite so much.
I'll have to check that out. I'm not real happy with the optical cable quality of sound, but it does
get it off the TV speakers and now, into the Denon
I mean, streaming NetFlix to your TV and the sound system mute, sux.
All smart TVs should have at least one HDMI output!!!!!!
Then again, it could be a multitude of things on the internet including WiFi router
and possibly drop line to house, service cables and so on, since RCAs provide excellent
CD music.

Just some thoughts...

Thanks again for the update and enjoy!

Cheers,
Kurt

Play the first 2 minutes of this flick to give you an indication at what the sub can do. WARNING...play it at low levels first and inch them up because it has destroyed a lot of subs.
I felt the bass pound my chest in my modest set-up.


I'm glad you are satisfied with your sub.

I am. I'm very satisfied with it
Thanks for the suggestion and warning as well LOL! Always looking to find a DVD
to "strut the stuff" ya know. Oh, and the Dragon, Smaug, in the Desolation of Smaug
The Hobbit, has a pretty stark "clicking" growl the sub isolates and perfects as well.
That was one of my Christmas gifts in BL 3D.

I plan on building a nice entertainment centre, low profile (tv stays on the wall) this year.

If I could use this cabinet I built for my aquarium 3 yrs ago, would give me a head start
but some of the equipment is wider than the door openings. The doors would have to be open
all the time during use or remove them all together, and I just don't see that yet.

I added a trim and theatrical lighting to the top , 3 sides on a dimmer, and looks really nice at night.
It also illuminates the hardwood flooring to desired brightness, with a warm glow.

If you like theatrical lighting that is. The back part where the power cord connects was pulling loose.
Missed that before I took the shot, oops.