Anybody familiar with Rythmik subs?

[billy p]

Indeed...Paradigm & B+W generally cost hundreds more but those subs aren't really revered but I see your point...sort of ....

Btw...I gave you a wrench and you've now given me 2 thumb down in recent weeks...lol

 

[Alex2507]

Btw...I gave you a carrot...

It's a wrench. I wonder what other stuff you've been wrong about.

 

[Acoustat]

Waiting for Brian to call back this evening. My plan is to limp on a single F15
and purchase a 2nd later, if I really need it. We'll see what he has to say.

One pain with building this system, is, break in time, when you buy pieces
at different intervals, you have to go back into break in time/volume mode.
But honestly, critical listening doesn't occur that frequently here, but
it is nice to see those corresponding speaker LED/LCDs light up when a new piece is added
on the front panel readout of the Denon AVR.

I think 3db suggested one of the 2 Pink Floyd DVD's on my Christmas list
I have no doubt I'll get the Pulse he suggested, + "Remember that Night"
with David Gilmour Live at Royal Albert Hall - Blue Ray disk. I read the BR disk
lacks a lot in video quality, but excels in audio. I don't like that trade off,
but will certainly take the good with the bad

Already ordered the subwoofer cable , should be here Wed. so indeed I am ready…to decide.

 

[fuzz092888]

One pain with building this system, is, break in time...

You mean only turning it up to 9 instead of 10 on the first run?

 

[KEW]

Ask Brian about break-in.
I think many companies make a lot of noise about break-in to give you time to get used to sound and so you are not too quick to return the product. Really can't blame them.
The servo technology is designed with the idea of the driver always being at the right position at the right time. With it (and any solid driver with heavy magnet, for that matter) I don't see the rubber surround restricting it. The surround is designed to not restrict motion.
If you get the chance ask Brian and please share his thoughts with us!

 

[billy p]

It's a wrench. I wonder what other stuff you've been wrong about.

Lol...that's a wrench.....

 

[Acoustat]

You mean only turning it up to 9 instead of 10 on the first run?

Ha ha, LOL, can't wait

Ask Brian about break-in.
I think many companies make a lot of noise about break-in to give you time to get used to sound and so you are not too quick to return the product. Really can't blame them.
The servo technology is designed with the idea of the driver always being at the right position at the right time. With it (and any solid driver with heavy magnet, for that matter) I don't see the rubber surround restricting it. The surround is designed to not restrict motion.
If you get the chance ask Brian and please share his thoughts with us!

Sure thing. He's supposed to call back tomorrow. We spent 33 mins on the tele this evening.
He thinks either the F12 as TLS suggested, to better yet, same price, the F8 (dual 8" drivers)
as the F8 is made more for 2ch stereo main, and HT secondary with handling up to 250 Hz.

My argument with that, don't get me wrong, I was not argumentative in the least, was, and he agreed
the 12" would handle HT with better authority. Brian said the same thing, the 12" is lighter, and smaller
so can handle the higher crossover point, that would free up my bass panel in my Acoustats.
Obviously, experimentation will ensue once I receive it. Downside to the 12" is power capacity.
If I take his professional advice, off the top, it's a single 12" placed very close to a speaker.
He was explaining wavelength and sound cancellation, so I do not see how a high crossover would not
experience some cancellation (using a single sub, next to say the R speaker) with the other speaker.
100Hz is 10' long and can cancel out with longer lower frequency wavelengths particularly when a distance
occurs between a woofer, and a main, or fuller range driver carrying shorter wavelengths.
I'm sure you know that, but hey, I learnt something

Long story short, the 15" may work against my higher crossover demands (100Hz).

Now, I just thought of this…I could flip the crossover, on the back of my Acoustats, and have above 100Hz there manually,
use the AVR to crossover at 80 Hz, to a F15HP and the center and surrounds carry the missing link the mains are missing
between 80 and 100Hz. Those frequencies are marginally directional, so I hear anyway. So I may be able to do a 15" sub
with that in mind, however, for 2ch stereo, well that wouldn't work. Sounds like an F12 may well be my next purchase.

F15 range
14 - 90 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs

F12 range
14 - 100 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs in all models

Brian was saying the LFE is more like a specific HT channel, and not so much musical.
I really didn't understand entirely what he said, but it null and voided the F15 200Hz
I had been hoping for. This is where the new F8 shines.

 

[KEW]

Brian seems pretty OCD about making sure customers end up with their best option!

Did I exaggerate?

 

[3db]

Did I exaggerate?

Not all. He was very responsive to me as well.

 

[herbu]

Brian was saying the LFE is more like a specific HT channel, and not so much musical.

That's a real good way to think of it. LFE is as separate as Left, Right and Center. It is a specific channel with Low Frequency Effects only. Think explosions, earthquakes and monster footsteps in movies... the sounds that shake your chair and thump you in the chest. Not present in music. So if you're using your sub to enhance music, (frequencies above LFE), be sure to take that into consideration when you configure your AVR regarding what to send the sub.

 

[Acoustat]

Did I exaggerate?

I was going to wait to reply till after he called me back this evening if he remembers
but I sincerely appreciate his understanding peculiar situations (i.e. 100Hz crossover
and the lack of my intelligence of the LFE desired for both HT and music, and blending with ESLs)

... So if you're using your sub to enhance music, (frequencies above LFE), be sure to take that into consideration when you configure your AVR regarding what to send the sub.

Thanks for the reply herbu. Are you telling me that LFE can also carry typical music bass
if I use the AVR to cross at say 100 or 110Hz?

It is a specific channel with Low Frequency Effects only.

Not sure how the AVR would over ride this "only" part other than using Line In, rather than LFE in.
Rythmik needs to make me a 12" sub, with the same capabilities as the new F8
toggling between HT and Music. This is sooooo no cut n dry folks

I cannot believe what I've gotten myself into, searching the web for the Bose Acoustimas 10.1 system,
finding this forum, then starting a thread, that I was looking for the "BA 10.1" …now what? LOL!!!
I really thought this was going to be cut n dry. I was sooooo wrong. Stereo is so much more cut n dry.
Thanks guys for sticking it out with me while I grind through the process

 

[KEW]

I know if I set the sub mode to LFE on my Denon (4311), it says low range from all speakers set to small and LFE will be sent to sub.

 

[Acoustat]

As far as brake in goes, I'll also ask that. The ML Motion series requests 72 hours
of break in time before critical listening is performed. So now that I have the ML 40's broke in
based on their criteria, I got the ML 50XT for the center, and have to start all over again, LOL.


I think one thing most folks do not understand about Acoustats electro statics is what it comprises of.
My model Spectra 33 have 3 identical looking 9" x 46" panels side by side.
The inside panel is a full array making each speaker different (L and R)
The middle panel is a blend of mids and highs, with some upper bass if I remember right (100Hz+).
The outer panel is for bass from 100Hz down.
There's a 5000V step up driver on the back, that has about a dozen wires that distribute the signals
to the corresponding panels and locations within the panels, if I remember right.
There is no mechanical woofer as with ML ESL's, there is no ribbon tweeter as with Magnepans,
they are fully electrostatic from the lowest note to the highest. The low notes are handled with most excellent
SQ, but those frequencies are not capable of being reproduced by the panels with a lot of oomph.
The extra energy, (frequency vs SPL) they cannot deal with are discharged, emitting a clicking sound
and protects the membrane from perforating somehow, the best I understand it. Even musical bass drums
have a bit of limitations with SPL. So it's not that I'm wanting to get 115 db from my mains while including bass
with them, it's the bass oomph/SPL they need help with, particularly HT to help protect, particularly being 25 yrs old now.

 

[Acoustat]

I know if I set the sub mode to LFE on my Denon (4311), it says low range from all speakers set to small and LFE will be sent to sub.

That's LFE, effects I understand, recorded as, and for .1
but what about what herbu said, using LFE mode, while trying to enhance music
since music is not typically recorded this way?
I understand you to say LFE and low range, does this include music at any applicable crossover on the AVR?
Please don't anybody say I'm over thinking this. There's a reason Brian is OCD about getting it right the 1st time.
Returns have to be sold at closeout, and cost money to ship. Penny saved/earned, I'm there with him on that.

 

[3db]

Pictures of the new F8

 

[KEW]

I understand you to say LFE and low range, does this include music at any applicable crossover on the AVR?

That is definitely my interpretation, but I could be wrong. Not sure every receiver works this way, but it seems like the logical way to provide useful bass management.
When I get home, I will double check what goes to sub, but feel pretty confident about this.

 

[3db]

That's LFE, effects I understand, recorded as, and for .1
but what about what herbu said, using LFE mode, while trying to enhance music
since music is not typically recorded this way?
I understand you to say LFE and low range, does this include music at any applicable crossover on the AVR?
Please don't anybody say I'm over thinking this. There's a reason Brian is OCD about getting it right the 1st time.
Returns have to be sold at closeout, and cost money to ship. Penny saved/earned, I'm there with him on that.

If one doesn't use pure direct mode (in other words,if one doesn't disengage the digital processing of the AVR), bass from the two main channels will be directed to the LFE channel if you set your main speakers to small. In certain AVR models, you can set fronts to large and select subwoofer for bass output which will send bass to the fronts and sub.

 

[herbu]

bass from the two main channels will be directed to the LFE channel if you set your main speakers to small.

Acoustat, that IF is the key. Some people say, "My mains sound better set to Large. But my new subwoofer seems to give me nothing." When you run Audyssey, oftentimes it seems to set your L/R to Large. You need to manually change them to Small. When set to Large, your sub will ONLY get LFE, which means pretty useless for music. Keep in mind, also like 3db said, even if you set your L/R to Small, if you select Direct or Pure Direct mode, it will change your L/R to Large as long as Direct is engaged.

Some AVRs have a sub setting like, "Extra Bass" or "LFE + Main". This means that even with your L/R set to Large, your AVR will send bass, determined by how you have set your crossover, to BOTH your L/R and your sub. So if you like a lot of bass, and if your L/R are very adept at the low frequencies, you can get bass from all of them. Typically, unless you have expensive L/Rs, a serious sub will handle low music frequencies better.

Your crossover setting in the AVR tells it how to define what you call bass. So w/ L/R set to Small, your crossover is the point at which the AVR divides what it sends to your sub vs your L/R. Everything above your crossover goes to the L/R. Everything below goes to the sub. People usually use something between 60Hz - 120Hz.

 

[Acoustat]

If one doesn't use pure direct mode (in other words,if one doesn't disengage the digital processing of the AVR), bass from the two main channels will be directed to the LFE channel if you set your main speakers to small. In certain AVR models, you can set fronts to large and select subwoofer for bass output which will send bass to the fronts and sub.

Hey thanks for the pictures. I hadn't seen them yet on their website. Those look to be super for music.
I believe Brian said they will extend to 20Hz, which for HT, IMO, isn't really worth it.
I'd love to have a pair for music

So if bass mgt sends musical bass ~90Hz (or whatever) to LFE, Brian should've filled in that big gap in my head with this information.
I feel like a got a bad hair cut and it shows . This is good news, and actually, back to the chalkboard...

Acoustat, that IF is the key. Some people say, "My mains sound better set to Large. But my new subwoofer seems to give me nothing." When you run Audyssey, oftentimes it seems to set your L/R to Large. You need to manually change them to Small. When set to Large, your sub will ONLY get LFE, which means pretty useless for music. Keep in mind, also like 3db said, even if you set your L/R to Small, if you select Direct or Pure Direct mode, it will change your L/R to Large as long as Direct is engaged.

Some AVRs have a sub setting like, "Extra Bass" or "LFE + Main". This means that even with your L/R set to Large, your AVR will send bass, determined by how you have set your crossover, to BOTH your L/R and your sub. So if you like a lot of bass, and if your L/R are very adept at the low frequencies, you can get bass from all of them. Typically, unless you have expensive L/Rs, a serious sub will handle low music frequencies better.

Your crossover setting in the AVR tells it how to define what you call bass. So w/ L/R set to Small, your crossover is the point at which the AVR divides what it sends to your sub vs your L/R. Everything above your crossover goes to the L/R. Everything below goes to the sub. People usually use something between 60Hz - 120Hz.

Very good then. Thanks, and I agree with what you guys said. It all makes sense.
I think, since I have to choose between HT and music-abilities of a sub, rather than a sub that
is passionate about both, I'm going to go with HT as the biggest criteria. Either way, unless I replaced my mains
I'm still going to have to cross at 100Hz or higher, and that my friends, seems to be the crux of the choice in subs.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is I'm opening my menu to edit it, and allow a vented sub into the mix of choices
and rely very little on a sub for 2ch stereo. As KEW pointed out at one point, I may have ML 50's for mains some day
or the newer equivalent.

 

[KEW]

I agree with what 3db said, but wanted to make sure since I could.
I just checked to confirm using AVR-X4000 (with front speakers set to small and sub mode set to LFE) feeding the LFE Inputs on my E15HP subs.
Using a CD (music only) as source, subs are playing bass. Using BluRay player, subs played bass during intro music and music within scenes of movie.

As I understand it, the LFE input on the subs totally bypasses the crossover (high pass filter) of the sub so the AVR controls all bass management functions.
The subs are new to me, but my understanding is I am better off using the line level input and setting crossover to the highest value (120Hz) because I am using the AVR with crossover at 80Hz. This way, the sub is not wasting energy trying to reproduce any line noise above 120Hz as it would via LFE input. My AVR will still control all bass management since it has filtered out the low frequencies well before they reach 120Hz.

These subs were apparently designed for typical cases of crossover at ~80Hz or lower, then the LFE input was recently added to amp panel to allow higher frequency crossover with AVR performing Bass Management.

I know some of what I say above is not relevant to your situation, but think the better idea you have of the sub controls when you talk with him, the easier it will be to follow what he is saying.