Need Guidance buying 5.1 HT Spkrs & Receiver

[KEW]

1.) Would you guys favor the bigger speakers ALL AROUND (i.e. 5 Level 3s including the Center) because of the room size or do you think it would be overkill and the Level 2s for the rears are a better fit??? (I do like me some OVERKILL.....)
Zieglj may have some good thoughts on this, but my first thought is the main justification to go with larger speakers all around is if you think you will play music through the house. Denon has a setting called multi-channel stereo where the full stereo content is sent to the surrounds. From a purist standpoint, this is an abomination because you are totally screwing up imaging. I agree... if you are sitting in the listening position. But my room is open like yours and I almost always play Pandora using multi channel. By having music in the open room, I only have two bathrooms that are more than one doorway away from the big room (aside from basement). In other words, I have music throughout the house from the main room. Is it high quality in those rooms? Not really, but when I am bumbling about from room to room, in the kitchen, etc.; it provides a uniform delivery of steady music and life is good!
I don't see the need to go with a 3 for the center, but then, I didn't see the need to use a speaker for the center! Size the center dimensions up against where the bottom of the TV will be and your AV cabinet/rack. Often dimensions and looking right determines happiness with a center

2.) Would you guys think that increasing the Sub to the VT-15H with a little of the money saved by going with HTD over the Ascends would be something to strongly consider?

The more sub you can get, the better for that room. The vtf-15h would be a good place to put money if you can swing it. It is a fairly powerful sub. It is great that you can save shipping!!!

Hsu sells some decent speakers. Whet your appetite a little while you are there! However, he will have them set up in a good room. You can't expect yours will sound quite as good. Not because of the speakers, but because of the room! Bring some of your favorite music and enjoy!

Here are the 2 Subs I'm considering:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html

or upgrade to http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

See comments in color above.

I should warn you, if you hang around here, you will end up adding a second sub and XT 32, and setting up a real listening room somewhere else. BTDT!

 

[KEW]

If going/picking the Level Two for surrounds, would allow you to get the bigger sub.
Then that would be my preference. Most of the info/sound goes to the front speakers
and the subwoofer - so that should be the focus.

I definitely agree, if the choice is between the larger sub or larger surrounds and since you are most interested in HT, go with the sub.
On the other hand, you only want to do this once! If you want to do the whole house music thing I would get both! The threes don't cost that much more and you have already shown your budget can be extended!

I do feel the 1100 is a good fit.

 

[KEW]

I tried to describe each pic as best I could so you would know what to focus on in each but I had to compress them so I apologize for them being small.

Here's the mount:

http://www.av-express.com/AV-Catalog/tv-mount-swivel-tv-mount-corner-tv-wall-mount-articulating-category/in-wall-tv-mounts

The pics are fine, If I click on it it comes close to filling my monitor.
I just was looking for the speaker to be squeezed under the stair, and if I read before looking at the pictures, I'd likely lose my man-card.

I really like the in wall mount.

4" out from the wall was the best I saw when I was looking. It looks pretty good, but yours will be nicer. I like the idea of the TV sitting like just another framed painting against the wall.

Edit: to reiterate, the 3's as surround only makes sense if you plan to do the multi-chanel stereo thing. There just isn't enough content in the surrounds to work even the twos. But full range music is a different story.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Zieglj, I am willing to bite the bullet and go Level 3s all the way around AND get the bigger sub if you think that my room size could benefit from the extra Level 3s along with that bigger 15 Sub. I have been growing concerned that my sound is going to fly away into that neverending ceiling.

To clarify, and I just got KEW's post and this is EXACTLY where I was going (mindreaders) I will be using it to stream Pandora pretty often. I realized that my music to tv use is probably much more skewed to music than I had originally stated. When cooking I listen to alot of streaming so from that perspective along with my concerns with the room, I was able to justify raising my budget.

For the same reason, I am thinking of going for bigger speakers all the way around AND the bigger sub.

That said, do you think that the Level 3s would be too much or do you think it could help with the room size that big and to enhance music listening??

I think I know the answer to this......

 

[Clay Bertrand]

KEW, you are ON THEE LEVEL dude!! lol

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Should I have Ice Cream or Cake OR BOTH?? DUHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! lol

 

[KEW]

The level threes are not too much for that room. You are thinking of these as big speakers, and they are compared to the lifestyle speakers that would get totally lost in your room; but they are bookshelf speakers. Because they are well designed they will do fine in your room, especially crossed over at 80Hz, but if you were not going to use a sub, I would have pushed the 450's or even tried to talk you into towers.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

KEW,

Yessir I understand that the rears are strictly sound effects and not the primary audio and that they would be a waste somewhat if I was getting them hoping for a better HT sound. I totally get what you are saying regarding the music listening also and I think its right on with what I am looking for. I know that its not the purists way to listen to tunes. BUT, exactly as you said, I take it for what it is and am willing to do the artificial stereo surround setting when I'm cooking for example or doing other things around the house in the main area. Totally in line with your reasoning and explanation.

I know the Level 3 are not BIG speakers per se but relative to the small set ups and for wall mounting, they are on the larger side. I appreciate you making sure I'm clear on these things man. Really easy to misunderstand this stuff!!

I MAY have to shift to the 450s if for some reason I can't get that 15H from HSU........ its a clearance mode after all.

I'm going to call them again tomorrow and see about it.

Yeah that in-wall mount is the 3rd one I bought and I ain't even got the TV outta the box yet!!!! I returned the others and finally found these av-express guys in Ohio. Bought it thru Amazon. They get great reviews and the build quality is supposed to be extremely sturdy. Price is WAAAAAYYY below what I've seen at any store. I've seen stuff up close to $600 for a higher end tv mount for large tvs and paid over $400 for one (returned HaHa!!). Ridiculous!! I've been insisting on getting a mount with the fullest extension and resulting horizontal pivot I can find and I'm looking forward to getting this soon.

This is another model from them that is really good though not recessed:
http://www.av-express.com/AV-Catalog/tv-mount-swivel-tv-mount-corner-tv-wall-mount-articulating-category/articulating-long-arm-extension-tv-mount-wall-mount-bracket-42-to-70-inch-AEON-45200

BTW, you know, I'll bet nearly all of these speaker companies were in Vegas last week for the CES.....I know the TV mount guys had a booth... That coulda been a one stop demo for EVERYTHING (though obviously set up to be perfect there to sell). Plus, there's a rumor about Vegas being a little bit uhhhhhhh "sinful".......lol......Woulda been a good opportunity to see alot!! Maybe next year!!

 

[GIEGAR]

.

You guys have me on the right track and I'm learning good things here. (all learning is good right???!!)

All of the advice I have been given here has been pure gold!!

And I ain't just blowin Sunshine you guys' way!!

You know your SHIZZLE here!!!

You're in very good hands in this thread Clay.

If you want, head to the bottom right of their posts and hit those fellas with "thumbs up" deluxe!

I'm sure they'd appreciate it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As you've virtually made your speaker decision, I'll just offer a quick(?) suggestion about the subwooferage situation...

Given that subs "see" the whole volume of open space and yours is cavernous, it can take a bit of expense to get satisfying levels of low bass across the whole space. Another option to consider when you go and visit Dr Hsu's is "nearfield" placement of your sub(s). An example of this type of placement is using the sub positioned like an end table beside the couch (or in the corners of the "U" formed by three couches, say).

This will give a good tactile feel to the lower bass without the sub(s) necessarily having to "pressurise" the whole space. The sub(s) should also be operating well within their limits at low(ish) distortion, due to their proximity to the listening positions. An ideal sub for this would be the HSU VTF-3 MK4, and as I've been hinting with the odd plural above, you could aim for second one later. Anyway... run the idea past the fellas at Hsu, they're the experts.

 

[Ty Wayne]

Hey guys, thanks again.

Psbfan9, yeah my room set up is fairly large, very high and open, and I have some prewiring and a staircase to try to work/contend with. Not the IDEAL set up for a perfect HT, but all things considered, I think with the help and expert guidance of you all, its gonna be killer.

Had I not come here, I'd be sitting around wondering why the ALL IN ONE BOX system I spent $1500 on sounds like doo-doo.

You guys have me on the right track and I'm learning good things here. (all learning is good right???!!)

All of the advice I have been given here has been pure gold!!

And I ain't just blowin Sunshine you guys' way!!

You know your SHIZZLE here!!!

I told you that you were in the right place! This is a great place!

 

[KEW]

Couple of quick comments.

Giegar makes an excellent point - Hsu is probably one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to subs. Bring your photos and see how he thinks you should best set things up within budget. He'll also help you down the road (customer support), but nice if he remembers you when you are on the phone. I may be wrong about Hsu himself handling things, he may have grown too big for that, but either way, there will be some good expertise.

Don't consider the 450's a good substitute for a sub. Definitive is notorious for stretching their specifications. They say it goes down to 24Hz, but don't say at how many dB drop-off.
Also they refer to the 10" driver as a "pressure driven subwoofer". This is BS. It is a radiator which performs roughly the same role as a port in a speaker-no wires connect to it, it just flops around in response to the 6.5" mid-woofer.
A lot of people won't recommend them on principle, but they are well designed speakers. The engineering is good, the marketing is suspect. My point is don't really believe the 450 could replace your sub or have anything that could be called a subwoofer. It is slightly more efficient.

From your listening position, and looking straight ahead, approximately how far to the left speaker and what is angle from straight ahead? Then the same question for right speaker.

 

[zieglj01]

I MAY have to shift to the 450s if for some reason I can't get that 15H from HSU........ its a clearance mode after all.

As stated - you can go with the VTF-3 and place it nearfield. The sub
will not be mute, or try to run and hide.

Take it all up with the folks at HSU

Your call

 

[zieglj01]

Don't consider the 450's a good substitute for a sub. Definitive is notorious for stretching their specifications. They say it goes down to 24Hz, but don't say at how many dB drop-off.
Also they refer to the 10" driver as a "pressure driven subwoofer". This is BS. It is a radiator which performs roughly the same role as a port in a speaker-no wires connect to it, it just flops around in response to the 6.5" mid-woofer.
A lot of people won't recommend them on principle, but they are well designed speakers. The engineering is good, the marketing is suspect. My point is don't really believe the 450 could replace your sub or have anything that could be called a subwoofer. It is slightly more efficient.

In the real world the Definitive is tuned to around 55 hz - and goes fishing for
some bass after that [40 to 45 hz].

 

[zieglj01]

I MAY have to shift to the 450s if for some reason I can't get that 15H from HSU........ its a clearance mode after all.

The Definitive went up to $299
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882325060&cm_re=definitive_technology_speakers-_-82-325-060-_-Product

 

[KEW]

Tell us about the "Hsu experience" when you get the chance!

 

[KEW]

but if you were not going to use a sub, I would have pushed the 450's or even tried to talk you into towers.

I need to retract this statement. I knew better, but took a quick glance at the 450, saw the 24Hz bottom and call out of a 10" subwoofer and thought these speakers put out serious bass. Brain fart! Then I started looking at the specs in more detail, saw the description of the "subwoofer", and remembered this is Definitive's specs, not HTD or Ascend etc.
As Zieglj points out port tuned to 55Hz, which means it drops off like a rock below that!
Sorry for any confusion!

 

[zieglj01]

I need to retract this statement. I knew better, but took a quick glance at the 450, saw the 24Hz bottom and call out of a 10" subwoofer and thought these speakers put out serious bass.

As a general rule take the 24 hz and multiply by 2 [2 x 24 = 48]

That will get you close.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

DUDES,

I have couple of updates that I'm getting excited about!! Basically, I got a chance to hear a pair of Ascend 340s and although they are beyond my budget, I was blown away!! Obviously I couldn't compare them to anything side by side but for music, these were extremely impressive. Then I find out I have to work this weekend because one of our guys' is having a kid etc. Bottom line: Overtime Pay is going straight into the speaker budget and I'm gonna get 5 of these:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

and hopefully the biggest HSU sub I can get.

This pushes my total costs to $2621.84 so far (Unless someone decides to give me a LOCALS ONLY DISCOUNT...)


HSU and Ascend are both going to let me come by but if I want a full demo with the items I would like to purchase only, I have to give them a couple of days notice (Hsu needs a day's notice but they said to call them anyway if I'm local and want to stop by and they'll likely make some time).

THE ASCEND/HSU EXPERIENCE SO FAR:

I just got off the phone with the owner of Ascend (Dave), and he was really cool to talk to me even though I called 15 min before they close (truly layback, they open at 10:30 and close at 6:30...Screw the early bird AND THAT WORM!! ). Dave told me that if I wanted, they'd set up their demo space for 5.1 with all 340s and re-calibrate everything to give me a look at how they do in a HT set up. Basically, it appears (understandably in some cases) that neither HSU nor Ascend has ALL of their products set up for demo at one time especially for BOTH music/stereo AND HT demos. He explained that they like to calibrate everything for the products AND intended use if possible and that can take a little time so they ask for some notice ahead of your visit. He told me that they will not be having office hours Fri-Monday for a post holidays inventory but he invited me to come in next Wednesday so that's the plan. Ascend is still having their holiday sale but it will end pretty soon (they won't say when but Dave said about a week longer or so...) in case anyone is looking at any of their stuff to pick up. I am trying to get the specifics on mounting these as the inability to mount them will be the only dealbreaker I can see at this point. These speakers are more like towers in dimension and their site in fact calls them, Mini Towers. I heard them in a low ceiling small condo front room. I am sure they will lose some OOOMPH in my cavernous room but they ARE supposed to do very well in bigger rooms.

I talked also to Dina at Ascend and she was giving me mounting and wall placement distances and she commented about the owner because apparently, she thought I knew him from somewhere, and she just said offhandedly, "...Well, You know Dave......music and speakers are his life...". Everyone seems very friendly and almost strangely they seem humbly proud that I am interested in and appreciate their products. They seem to be a true "small business" (Dave REFUSES to expand because he says "Big companies lose their way...") and they are seriously dedicated strictly to quality speakers and sound. Very geniune from what I have seen so far.

I also talked to the people at HSU and they said I could come by Friday, but I'm going to have to try to do it next Wednesday the same day I go to Ascend. I feel a little awkward because HSU makes speakers too and Ascend has subs (not sure if they build them tho) so I feel like i'm kind of insulting HSU's speakers and Ascend's subs by dismissing them. But, I don't feel bad for buying people's specialty and what they are BEST at.
Giegar suggests the VTF-3 MK4 sub and what is strange is I thought they were OUT OF STOCK except in the Rosewood but they certainly appear to be available. I have been wondering about sub placement and will certainly as Hsu and Ascend's opinions. I gotta stick with just one sub.....for now.

I'll be giving you guys as much insight into my dealings with these people as I can.

On the topic of those Distinctive 450s, yeah I saw that price jump last night. I know that the $249.99 price had a limited supply so I guess they sold out. There are couple of other deals on them though on Amazon. I found them for $279.99 (plus Tax w/Free Shipping) from a 3rd party seller thru Amazon called "autoparts depot" or something like that last night.

I'm glad that Zieglj revealed the UGLY TRUTH behind the 450s misleading Bass calculations!! I was starting to think they were REAL THUMPERS compared to the HTDs and Ascends......I was really thinking they would possibly add some bigger base and that I could afford to go with a smaller sub. But the reviews never said much about stand-out bass performance from them though and I began to wonder. It's just such a bogus deal with all these inflated performance specs on ALL electronics. I'm glad you guys know better!!!!!!

Also, sorry to have neglected giving you guys PROPER KUDOS via likes and all. I was unaware I could do that. I've never been a member in a forum. So let me see what I can do about giving you all your proper due!!!!!!!!

 

[Clay Bertrand]

These are the subs that I am looking at.

What do you guys think would be the best to get?? I can only get one for now....(Price is not a concern between these 3....I can't go above these tho moneywise)

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk4.html

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html


What would YOU get??

 

[zieglj01]

DUDES,

I have couple of updates that I'm getting excited about!! Basically, I got a chance to hear a pair of Ascend 340s and although they are beyond my budget, I was blown away!! Obviously I couldn't compare them to anything side by side but for music, these were extremely impressive. Then I find out I have to work this weekend because one of our guys' is having a kid etc. Bottom line: Overtime Pay is going straight into the speaker budget and I'm gonna get 5 of these:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

and hopefully the biggest HSU sub I can get.

Noting wrong with that - and they are good companies.

If you like to spend - then get 2 HSU VTF-3 mk4 subs
However, you can start with one and save for another.