Why is 87 Octane gas $2.34 but Diesel is $3.65?

[jinjuku]

Title says it all. I'm baffled.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Diesel demand is up while gasoline demand is down. Also, there's the winter changeover. Forget the fact that they're both made from crude oil.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Winter changeover doesn't even start to explain why my 87 gas price dropped by 35% in less than 4 months.

Oil futures trading might, but I have no idea how exactly.

 

[its phillip]

Filled up for 2.13/gal today

 

[Irvrobinson]

Winter changeover doesn't even start to explain why my 87 gas price dropped by 35% in less than 4 months.

Oil futures trading might, but I have no idea how exactly.

Not oil futures, oil refinery capacity. US refineries are designed to maximize gasoline output. Diesel, jet fuel, heating oil, etc, is secondary. And the winter changeover I was talking about is specifically for diesel fuel. I'm not an expert about this stuff, but something is done to diesel to winterize it, and a different version is used in the summer. Right now there's a surplus of gasoline around. The fleet mpg is going up, people are flying more and driving less, so gasoline inventories are rising. It's been all over the WSJ. Diesel is a completely separate market. Because the way refinery capacity works diesel prices are less related to oil prices than gasoline prices are.

 

[macddmac]

Diesel used to be be cheaper then regular gas..
About 10 years ago that changed and has been so since.
Not worth buying a diesel pickup (or car) in the United States anymore unless you absolutely need the torque from the pickup. Refinery capacity is fine-tuned to keep diesel prices high and very little capacity has been added in the last 10 years due to EPA regulations making a cost prohibitive to add capacity, or so Big oil wants you to think. My point is, they make more money keeping capacity down , therefore there's no incentive to increase it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Not oil futures, oil refinery capacity. US refineries are designed to maximize gasoline output. Diesel, jet fuel, heating oil, etc, is secondary. And the winter changeover I was talking about is specifically for diesel fuel. I'm not an expert about this stuff, but something is done to diesel to winterize it, and a different version is used in the summer. Right now there's a surplus of gasoline around. The fleet mpg is going up, people are flying more and driving less, so gasoline inventories are rising. It's been all over the WSJ. Diesel is a completely separate market. Because the way refinery capacity works diesel prices are less related to oil prices than gasoline prices are.

What is done to it, is to blend it with No1 Diesel. Summer Diesel is No 2, but it starts to gel at 15 above and by 10 above is solid.

So at this time of year, at least up here, Diesel is blended 70% No.1 and 30% No. 2. No.1 Diesel, home heating oil and aviation fuel are pretty much the same thing. So in winter Diesel is in competition with those fuels.

So the blend has to change in driving distance of places that could get to 15 above, otherwise someone could drive North and gel. In fact I put in pure No. 1 for winter which is over $4.00 per gallon. I also add Howes anti gel for good measure. I don't use my 1988 Suburban any more than I have to in the winter to preserve it. I only used it once last winter, to meet the semi, that bought my Panny plasma TV to Benedict. But I don't want the fuel gelling, as this new ultra low sulfur diesel fuel is hygroscopic and when it gels can split injector pumps wide open. In any event if you do gel you have to at least replace the fuel filter, as they won't pass fuel after Gel. When I filled the old girl up last month with No.1 the fill cost me $120 bucks in round figures.

My 1988 Diesel 6.2 liter diesel outside Terry's auto electric in Bemidji MN.

They rebuild alternators, generators and starters. They do it right the first time, fast and cheap. They rebuilt the starter for my Willys Jeep in less than 24 hours for $35! They also rebuilt the generator for my 1958 JD 420 and the starter for a 1930 De Soto I was working on for somebody.

I think their rebuilds are better than new, and a hell of a lot better than Chinese rebuilds.

A real hangover of how America used to be and needs to get back to!

 

[Irvrobinson]

Thanks, Mark. Nice explanation.

Personally, I don't care much for diesel cars. If I must burn hydrocarbons I prefer gasoline engines. I really prefer electric cars, but batteries and range need to improve somewhat more before I'll jump. Maximum torque at zero rpm with no transmission needed is a very tempting proposition.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, Mark. Nice explanation.

Personally, I don't care much for diesel cars. If I must burn hydrocarbons I prefer gasoline engines. I really prefer electric cars, but batteries and range need to improve somewhat more before I'll jump. Maximum torque at zero rpm with no transmission needed is a very tempting proposition.

No, but in 1988 it was a different proposition. The gas version got about 7 mpg, and that vehicle does 18 mpg.

Even when pulling a heavy load that vehicle gets 13 to 15 mpg. The problem was the dealers did not understand them, which is why so few lasted. So I have been its mechanic all its life. It has 206,000 miles on it. It is the original engine, but the transmission was rebuilt at 173,000 miles. It was done personally by some devoted GM staff in Detroit, who made it a special project. That particular transmission was only made form 1988 to 1990.

It is a very rare vehicle now, it must be about 10 years now since I have seen another vehicle like that. It turns heads more than my 1948 Willys actually. There are quite a lot of those in these parts. People always beg me to start it. Modern diesels do not sound that, and it now sounds very ancient. It earns its keep especially in Spring and Fall putting boats in and out of the water. It has done a lot of heavy hauling in its time. It still does, I have a large trailer and sometimes there is a call to pull heavy loads. It still drives just like it left the factory.

My children love to ride in the car they went on vacation in as kids and lots of other trips. The grandchildren think it is cool to ride in the vehicle their parents drove in as children. Last summer I put in the third seat and we had some of my kids, grandchildren and a nephew from England and his new bride, and did some touring.

 

[Rickster71]

Beginning in 2004, retail diesel fuel prices have consistently been higher than retail gasoline prices. There are several reasons why:
http://www.nacsonline.com/YourBusiness/FuelsReports/GasPrices_2013/Pages/Why-Diesel-Costs-More-Than-Gasoline.aspx

 

[slipperybidness]

No, but in 1988 it was a different proposition. The gas version got about 7 mpg, and that vehicle does 18 mpg.

Even when pulling a heavy load that vehicle gets 13 to 15 mpg. The problem was the dealers did not understand them, which is why so few lasted. So I have been its mechanic all its life. It has 206,000 miles on it. It is the original engine, but the transmission was rebuilt at 173,000 miles. It was done personally by some devoted GM staff in Detroit, who made it a special project. That particular transmission was only made form 1988 to 1990.

It is a very rare vehicle now, it must be about 10 years now since I have seen another vehicle like that. It turns heads more than my 1948 Willys actually. There are quite a lot of those in these parts. People always beg me to start it. Modern diesels do not sound that, and it now sounds very ancient. It earns its keep especially in Spring and Fall putting boats in and out of the water. It has done a lot of heavy hauling in its time. It still does, I have a large trailer and sometimes there is a call to pull heavy loads. It still drives just like it left the factory.

My children love to ride in the car they went on vacation in as kids and lots of other trips. The grandchildren think it is cool to ride in the vehicle their parents drove in as children. Last summer I put in the third seat and we had some of my kids, grandchildren and a nephew from England and his new bride, and did some touring.

Nothing like a good diesel! I drove a work truck F350 Superduty all over this country at a previous job. Pulling a trailer, I could still beat many cars off the red-lights

If treated well, diesel engines will run FOREVER!

The catch is that diesels are a bit more difficult and costly to maintain than gasoline engines. But, keep up with the maintenance and you will have a diesel for a looooong time.

In particular, I really like those old Mercedes diesels! Dang, riding in style and all the advantages of diesel.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Nothing like a good diesel! I drove a work truck F350 Superduty all over this country at a previous job. Pulling a trailer, I could still beat many cars off the red-lights

If treated well, diesel engines will run FOREVER!

The catch is that diesels are a bit more difficult and costly to maintain than gasoline engines. But, keep up with the maintenance and you will have a diesel for a looooong time.

In particular, I really like those old Mercedes diesels! Dang, riding in style and all the advantages of diesel.

Actually, diesel engines do not inherently last longer. That's folklore. The reason some diesel engines last longer is that they're built more robustly and are therefore more expensive than typical gasoline engines. If you built a gasoline engine to the same standard it would last longer. For example, the slow-turning Ford 4.6L OHC V8 so loved by the taxi and towncar industry is well known for going 300K miles in city traffic without a rebuild. Combine that with an air suspension (no shocks needed) and you have a car with a big back seat that needs very little mechanical maintenance. (And I've noticed most often gets very little maintenance...)

Diesel engines do have one very distinct advantage for trucks. Compression ignition is very friendly to forced induction. Just add some weight, cost, and complexity and you get massively increased horsepower without negative side effects like you do with gasoline engines. Since trucks are less sensitive to diesel NVH challenges, weight and size aren't critical factors (so you can use iron blocks and heads and you have room for routing turbo plumbing), and low rpm torque is critical, a turbo diesel is a match made in... well, Detroit. On the other hand they pollute more and diesel owners who refuel themselves may smell a little funny.

 

[slipperybidness]

Actually, diesel engines do not inherently last longer. That's folklore. The reason some diesel engines last longer is that they're built more robustly and are therefore more expensive than typical gasoline engines. If you built a gasoline engine to the same standard it would last longer. For example, the slow-turning Ford 4.6L OHC V8 so loved by the taxi and towncar industry is well known for going 300K miles in city traffic without a rebuild. Combine that with an air suspension (no shocks needed) and you have a car with a big back seat that needs very little mechanical maintenance. (And I've noticed most often gets very little maintenance...)

Diesel engines do have one very distinct advantage for trucks. Compression ignition is very friendly to forced induction. Just add some weight, cost, and complexity you get massively increased horsepower without negative side effects like you do with gasoline engines. Since trucks are less sensitive to diesel NVH challenges, weight and size aren't critical factors (so you can use iron blocks and heads and you have room for routing turbo plumbing), and low rpm torque is critical, a turbo diesel is a match made in... well, Detroit. On the other hand they pollute more and diesel owners who refuel themselves may smell a little funny.

OK.

I suppose I should say "In my experience, diesel engines last forever. Much longer than any gasoline engine that I have seen".

But, thanks for the info.

 

[jinjuku]

I love our Jetta TDi. I can't complain most of the time when Diesel and 87 are neck and neck price wise. And love the torque. Blast to drive.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I love our Jetta TDi. I can't complain most of the time when Diesel and 87 are neck and neck price wise. And love the torque. Blast to drive.

I agree with a previous post, and I'll go a bit further, I doubt we'll ever see parity between diesel and gasoline prices again. I also suspect hybrid technology will make diesel cars and unibody SUVs fully obsolete within three model years or so. Body on frame SUVs & pickups, motorhomes, and buses will be diesel until the EPA decides that particulates need to go to zero. Since refinery economics are so driven by gasoline, as falling gasoline demand makes refineries unprofitable, either the price of diesel, jet fuel, and heating oil will rise to fund refinery refits, or the price of these heavy fuels will rise as supplies get constrained. Either way things look dismal for diesel pricing.

Note that I'm not thinking people will be driving less. Actually, I think they'll be driving more. The CAFE car & light truck fleet average has been legislated to hit 40mpg in 2019. Driving is going to get cheaper, so driving will increase. At 40mpg and $5/gal driving 500 miles costs only $62.

 

[Gordonj]

I just picked up a new Dodge 2500 diesel and the fun new thing the EPA has forced the builders to add is the Diesel Exhaust Fluid system.(DEF). A 5 gallon ish resivor that holds this extremely toxic fluid that is injected into an exhaust chamber to capture the particles exhausted and trap them. Then at some preprogrammed point the waste is recycled though the engin to burn off. This new class of diesel engins is also in the new farm and construction machinery. The newer John Deer's have a second exhaust port for the burn off, that exhaust can put out up to 500 degrees during burn off!

 

[TLS Guy]

I just picked up a new Dodge 2500 diesel and the fun new thing the EPA has forced the builders to add is the Diesel Exhaust Fluid system.(DEF). A 5 gallon ish resivor that holds this extremely toxic fluid that is injected into an exhaust chamber to capture the particles exhausted and trap them. Then at some preprogrammed point the waste is recycled though the engin to burn off. This new class of diesel engins is also in the new farm and construction machinery. The newer John Deer's have a second exhaust port for the burn off, that exhaust can put out up to 500 degrees during burn off!

You are a little mixed up. The solution is not toxic. It is deionized water and urea. Urea you piss out every time you pee. It stinks, but is non toxic. This is "after treatment" to turn nitrous oxide into nitrogen and water.

The burn off is to regenerate the DPF, which is the Diesel particulate matter filter. This requires the temperature to be raised in the exhaust. This requires excess fuel to be added, starving the engine of air and retarding the timing. All this ruins the engine and gives it a very short life. Some systems only inject the excess diesel with pistons at top dead center this is better. Even better to inject diesel with a separate injector into the exhaust for burn off. This is probably the best and is now on Duramax trucks.

These exhaust systems need replacing periodically and the cost is $7000 a pop, so start saving.

In addition read your manual as to when the DPF filter needs service, on some models it can cost as much as $2000. Service is usually around the 90,000 to 100,000 miles. If you use your vehicle for short trips the service point will come much sooner. You need to reach highway speed for about 7 miles everyday you use the truck.

All this has turned the workhorse diesel engine a nightmare. Oh, and if you live anywhere near here where it gets very cold, expect to buy lots of new engines, as in cold weather the excess fuel injection does not work well and results in hydraulic lock of the pistons and destroyed engines.

And one more thing, diesels used to be much more resistant to catching fire. Because of all this they catch fire not infrequently now it seems, especially our school buses up here on Minnesota.

Good luck with your new truck!

 

[jinjuku]

^^ You are just a bundle of cheer

 

[jinjuku]

^^ You are just a bundle of cheer

 

[macddmac]

Love my 10 year old cummins, will likely never sell it
Cheers, Mac

 

[Rickster71]

You are a little mixed up. The solution is not toxic. It is deionized water and urea. Urea you piss out every time you pee. It stinks, but is non toxic. This is "after treatment" to turn nitrous oxide into nitrogen and water.

The burn off is to regenerate the DPF, which is the Diesel particulate matter filter. This requires the temperature to be raised in the exhaust. This requires excess fuel to be added, starving the engine of air and retarding the timing. All this ruins the engine and gives it a very short life. Some systems only inject the excess diesel with pistons at top dead center this is better. Even better to inject diesel with a separate injector into the exhaust for burn off. This is probably the best and is now on Duramax trucks.

These exhaust systems need replacing periodically and the cost is $7000 a pop, so start saving.

In addition read your manual as to when the DPF filter needs service, on some models it can cost as much as $2000. Service is usually around the 90,000 to 100,000 miles. If you use your vehicle for short trips the service point will come much sooner. You need to reach highway speed for about 7 miles everyday you use the truck.

All this has turned the workhorse diesel engine a nightmare. Oh, and if you live anywhere near here where it gets very cold, expect to buy lots of new engines, as in cold weather the excess fuel injection does not work well and results in hydraulic lock of the pistons and destroyed engines.

And one more thing, diesels used to be much more resistant to catching fire. Because of all this they catch fire not infrequently now it seems, especially our school buses up here on Minnesota.

Good luck with your new truck!

I couldn't agree more Doc.
My brother has an F450 work truck (1yr old) the DPF clogged and blew the turbo off the truck.
The average person doesn't know how many half baked and dangerous laws come out of the EPA.
DEF causes very serious de-oxidation of water bodies and damage of the aquatic.
Reminds me of how bad the EPA's forced use of MTBE was.