Denon AVR-X5200W Dolby Atmos AV Receiver Reviewed

[PENG]

First off, thanks for the before and after Audyssey measurements. You guys seem to be the only ones doing this.

It wasn't mentioned in the review, but it seems to me that the speakers measured better without Audyssey. They roll off below 50Hz, but are flatter and a bit of boost would be pretty easy. Above that No Audyssey looks much better. Did they sound as bright as they measured?

As Gene said, it does vary somewhat with mic position, even just for a few inches. I am not sure if it is hit or miss literally, or just reflects reality, that bass response versus positions of our ears varies more than we think.

My left speaker's (set to large) response in my room with Audyssey flat and no Audyssey:

I don't know if Gene's have smoothing applied. You can see mine are with 1/12 smoothing.

 

[gene]

Nice Peng. What measurement program are you using?

 

[RichB]

As Gene said, it does vary somewhat with mic position, even just for a few inches. I am not sure if it is hit or miss literally, or just reflects reality, that bass response versus positions of our ears varies more than we think.

My left speaker's (set to large) response in my room with Audyssey flat and no Audyssey:

View attachment 14196

I don't know if Gene's have smoothing applied. You can see mine are with 1/12 smoothing.

I have had the same result with moving the MIC during measurements.
At 10 feet from each speaker, just a 3 inch tilt on the stand-mounted Omni-mic can show a 10 DB dip in the midrange.
The bass is much more stable. My ears don't hear this I move around in the same area.
There are changes but nothing like the measurements. Perhaps, we need a head shaped MIC.

IMO, this explains the hit-or-miss results folks get with REQ and also why the more measurements the better.
Many seem to run-it until they like it.
The REQ software likely does less when the different positions show significant variation.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Nice Peng. What measurement program are you using?

The free REW (Room EQ Wizard)

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

and the mic is minidsp that is not free.

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1

 

[PENG]

Many seem to run-it until they like it.


- Rich

I am one of those, except I didn't exactly run-it until I like how it sounds, but rather run-it until I like the graphs. I find moving the sub and speakers do make a difference, Audyssey can only correct things a few dB. It can cut a lot, but only boost a few dB so to reduce dips you have to move things or the mic if you want to cheat.

I don't know if the Denon 5200 has more, or less processing power than my AV8801 but I do suspect the one that has more processing power could potentially do a better job. I would love to hear Gene's thought on this.

 

[RichB]

I am one of those, except I didn't exactly run-it until I like how it sounds, but rather run-it until I like the graphs. I find moving the sub and speakers do make a difference, Audyssey can only correct things a few dB. It can cut a lot, but only boost a few dB so to reduce dips you have to move things or the mic if you want to cheat.

Those with graphs, run it until you like the graphs
I don't mean that in a bad way, its just that there is a lot of variation produced by the MIC so the adjustments can vary widely within the capability of the system.
My point is I have put my head where the MIC is move it and get a different measurement and put my head there and it sounds about the same.
However, if adjusted by 3DB, I would hear that clearly. There was a pretty good thread on AVS a while back discussing our ability to discern and identify direct and reflected sound. A MIC does not, so a well made speaker with good dispersion can be rendered thin sounding after correction.
I don't know if that is right or not, but I have had that experience.

I also suspect the AVR could make a difference too. You can have two AVR both equipped with XT32 and subEQ HT, but I would think the one that has more processing power could potentially do a better job. I don't know if the Denon 5200 has more, or less processing power than my AV8801.

More and less, more processing for Atmos, less frequency extension when engaged.

I have been monitoring the AV7702 thread on AVS. It seems a bit buggy. It might be a great product in a few months

- Rich

 

[PENG]

I have been monitoring the AV7702 thread on AVS. It seems a bit buggy. It might be a great product in a few months

- Rich

Gene has not reviewed any Denon, Marantz, Yamaha flag ship models for some time now. It would be great if he could do the Denon X-7200W (not out yet), Marantz AV8802 (skip the 7702) and or the yamaha RX-A3040. I mean full review with bench test results complete with graphs.

 

[RichB]

Gene has not reviewed any Denon, Marantz, Yamaha flag ship models for some time now. It would be great if he could do the Denon X-7200W (not out yet), Marantz AV8802 (skip the 7702) and or the yamaha RX-A3040. I mean full review with bench test results complete with graphs.

The 7702 has a street price on under 2K, Atmos, XT32, and their new and improved HDAM it should be at least as good as the AV8801.
The 8802 is projected to be closer to 4K

- Rich

 

[PENG]

The 7702 has a street price on under 2K, Atmos, XT32, and their new and improved HDAM it should be at least as good as the AV8801.
The 8802 is projected to be closer to 4K

- Rich

I doubt that, it does not have the 32 bit DAC, copper chassis, among other things I assume. I also doubt there would be audible differences, but it is a class below the 8801 aside from the added features. I think it is more comparable to the 5200W. The 8802 would be comparable to the 7200W but being separates, the 7702 and 8802 would cost more even without the internal amps, and obviously better, still..

 

[RichB]

I doubt that, it does not have the 32 bit DAC, copper chassis, among other things I assume. I also doubt there would be audible differences, but it is a class below the 8801 aside from the added features. I think if is more comparable to the 5200W. The 8802 would be comparable to the 7200W but being separates, the 7702 and 8802 would cost more even without the internal amps, and obviously better, still..

I did not realize that about the DAC.

I expect the 7702 and new 8801 to cool better without the copper plate.
There should be less internal noise (from components on the wrong side of the plate) since they removed the Ethernet hub from all models.

Denon/Marantz cannot possibly compete with Yamaha without adding a fifth foot.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Gene has not reviewed any Denon, Marantz, Yamaha flag ship models for some time now.

Have there been any flagship AVRs that truly replaced the $5,500 Denon 5308, $5,500 Yamaha Z11 or $7,000 Pioneer SC-09?

 

[PENG]

Have there been any flagship AVRs that truly replaced the $5,500 Denon 5308, $5,500 Yamaha Z11 or $7,000 Pioneer SC-09?

Nope, they wouldn't expect the sales volume for them to be price competitive, audiophiles willing to pay that much would probably prefer separates. Who would pay $7,500 for a X-9200W, Gene, may be, but he already has an AVP? I suspect Denon may still come out with another AVP, just because it is easy for them to do. They can simply scale down the original AVP and add the latest features.

 

[gene]

Nope, they wouldn't expect the sales volume for them to be price competitive, audiophiles willing to pay that much would probably prefer separates. Who would pay $7,500 for a X-9200W, Gene, may be, but he already has an AVP? I suspect Denon may still come out with another AVP, just because it is easy for them to do. They can simply scale down the original AVP and add the latest features.

Unfortunately Denon will not be coming out with a high end processor to replace the AVP. Marantz was supposed to do it instead but it got scrapped. Lack of demand in a shrinking industry with the common denominator of making cheaper and cheaper feature laden stuff. People have no problem dropping $3k on a new HDTV but want a single speaker solution for surround sound for under $500 to mate it with.

 

[gene]

Here is our Youtube Video Review of the Denon AVR-X5200W Atmos AV Receiver

 

[RichB]

^^^
Another great video.

The preamp information was particularly interesting.
Folks on AVS have said that you can turn al unused amps if using all external amplification.
If that is true, this could really be a preamp or amplify surround channels as needed.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The preamp information was particularly interesting.
Folks on AVS have said that you can turn al unused amps if using all external amplification.
If that is true, this could really be a preamp or amplify surround channels as needed.

- Rich

But an AVR is NOT really a "preamp" because you can't turn off the amp section?.

I find it very funny how some people think that just because an AVR has built-in amps that it automatically makes the AVR inferior. And if the amp section can be "turned off", somehow that would improve the sound.

 

[RichB]

But an AVR is NOT really a "preamp" because you can't turn off the amp section?.

I find it very funny how some people think that just because an AVR has built-in amps that it automatically makes the AVR inferior. And if the amp section can be "turned off", somehow that would improve the sound.

In a vacation home, I have a Sunfire 5 channel amp that works fine and runs cool.
An Onkyo AVR is being used as a preamp but is about 5 years old and runs hot in the cabinet.
The cheapest replacement would be the lowest end AVR with 5.1 preamp outs.

So one advantage is heat reduction, which can improve longevity.
AVR's sound much better when they are working

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In a vacation home, I have a Sunfire 5 channel amp that works fine and runs cool.
An Onkyo AVR is being used as a preamp but is about 5 years old and runs hot in the cabinet.
The cheapest replacement would be the lowest end AVR with 5.1 preamp outs.

So one advantage is heat reduction, which can improve longevity.
AVR's sound much better when they are working

- Rich

Cooler operating temperature is definitely better for longevity.

I do think the AVP-A1 operates cooler than the AVR-5308 (as a pre-amp only).

But add 2 or 3 quiet PC/USB fans atop the AVR and it operates very cool as well even after several hours of use.

So I do agree that higher-end pre-pros usually have much better heat dissipation. I don't know about under $2K pre-pros, though. Maybe still a little better just because there isn't an amp inside.

 

[RichB]

Cooler operating temperature is definitely better for longevity.

I do think the AVP-A1 operates cooler than the AVR-5308 (as a pre-amp only).

But add 2 or 3 quiet PC/USB fans atop the AVR and it operates very cool as well even after several hours of use.

So I do agree that higher-end pre-pros usually have much better heat dissipation. I don't know about under $2K pre-pros, though. Maybe still a little better just because there isn't an amp inside.

The street price an certain Marantz Atmos Pre-Pro is $1600 + shipping

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The street price an certain Marantz Atmos Pre-Pro is $1600 + shipping

- Rich

In that case (pun intended), it will operate almost as hot as the $1600 AVR.