Which is the problem: BDP or Receiver?

[whgarrett1394]

Dude, you guys just blew my mind! Okay, so when i play the pcm version of Beck's Sea Change on blu ray which is supposedly 192khz/24bit 5.1 and output pcm to my receiver am i guaranteed to be getting hi resolution then?

 

[TLS Guy]

Dude, you guys just blew my mind! Okay, so when i play the pcm version of Beck's Sea Change on blu ray which is supposedly 192khz/24bit 5.1 and output pcm to my receiver am i guaranteed to be getting hi resolution then?

The short answer is no.

 

[whgarrett1394]

Alright, TLSguy. I'm gonna bite. Can you please explain this to me. I think I understand that if i'm playing a dts master audio track and am outputting pcm then my receiver may be just reading the "core" dts as pcm, but how does that translate to truehd or a pcm track?

TrueHD is an optional codec and has to come with a separate dolby digital track. DD isn't embedded like the dts in ma, so if my player says it is decoding the truehd and the receiver is getting pcm how is it not lossless?

To my understanding the pcm track would be the same. If the player is reading the pcm track and the receiver is getting pcm how would it not be lossless. Thanks in advance.

 

[mtrot]

OK, I pulled up the specs on the SR5001, and it does NOT support Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master AudioHD. Here are the relevant specs from the spec page:

Dolby Digital EX, Pro Logic IIx (Movie/Music/Game)
DTS 96/24, ES (Discrete 6.1/Matrix6.1), Neo:6 (Cinema/Music)

As you can see, no mention of the lossless codecs.

The entire spec page can be found here:

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR5001.pdf

I can't provide a technical explanation of why you are not getting Dolby TrueHD or DTS Mater AudioHD, but I am pretty sure about this. I upgraded from a Yamaha receiver that was speced similarly to your Marantz, specifically so that I could get the lossless codecs.

Your receiver does have multi-channel inputs, so you could get the lossless codecs via analog cables from a Blu-ray player that has multi-channel outputs. But IMO that would cost you so much money for the BD player and interconnects that you may as well upgrade the receiver.

 

[whgarrett1394]

Thanks for your reply, mtrot. I do understand that my receiver doesn't decode DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD. That's why i am trying to decode them in the player and send them out to the receiver via hdmi as a digital pcm signal. I thank you for researching the specs for me. Now i have a quick link!

 

[Lulimet]

Your receiver does have multi-channel inputs, so you could get the lossless codecs via analog cables from a Blu-ray player that has multi-channel outputs.

He doesn't need analog multi-channel inputs because his receiver can accept muti-channel PCM over HDMI. Player decodes the HD audio and sends it as multi-channel PCM to the receiver.

My opinion still stands that his Sony player is at fault here.

 

[mtrot]

Thanks for your reply, mtrot. I do understand that my receiver doesn't decode DTS MA or Dolby TrueHD. That's why i am trying to decode them in the player and send them out to the receiver via hdmi as a digital pcm signal. I thank you for researching the specs for me. Now i have a quick link!

OK, one other thing that may or may not be relevant to what we are trying to establish here. Did you say your Marantz is displaying "PCM" when you are playing the media you referenced? I believe it needs to display "MPCM"(multi channel pcm) in order to be producing the 5.1 high rez you are seeking. I know on my Onkyo TX-NR809 I have seen it display "MPCM", I think when playing DVD-Audio discs.

 

[whgarrett1394]

The Marantz receiver displays pcm. I have never seen it display mpcm. There could be something to that. I will look into it. Thanks.

I play my DVD-A discs on a separate dvd player that has 5.1 analog output, so I can't compare the two.

 

[TLS Guy]

Alright, TLSguy. I'm gonna bite. Can you please explain this to me. I think I understand that if i'm playing a dts master audio track and am outputting pcm then my receiver may be just reading the "core" dts as pcm, but how does that translate to truehd or a pcm track?

TrueHD is an optional codec and has to come with a separate dolby digital track. DD isn't embedded like the dts in ma, so if my player says it is decoding the truehd and the receiver is getting pcm how is it not lossless?

To my understanding the pcm track would be the same. If the player is reading the pcm track and the receiver is getting pcm how would it not be lossless. Thanks in advance.

OK here is your answer.

As I said before Dolby True HD and DTS Master HD work differently.

DTS has a core and an extensions for DTS HD and DTS Master HD.

Only Dolby Digital is a mandatory decode for BD players.

So in general BD players will output bit stream

My researches tell me that few players will output loss less DTS Master HD as PCM. I suspect not cheap players. In other words they will decode the core and ignore the extension.

Here is the DTS White Paper.

Here is a good review article on the issue.

The bottom line is that no BD players are required to output Dolby Digital plus, Dolby True HD, DTS, DTS HD or DTS Master HD to PCM over HDMI.

Some players will only decode Dolby Digital to PCM and ignore the other codecs. For DTS from what I can tell most BD player will only output the DTS core to PCM over HDMI and ignore all extensions.

 

[whgarrett1394]

Thanks, TLSGuy. What about those High Fidelity Pure audio blu ray discs that have both a DTS Master Audio and a PCM track? If I choose the MA track and output PCM on my Sony I understand that my player is probably decoding the DTS and sending it as PCM to the receiver, but what about when i choose the actual PCM track? It works.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, TLSGuy. What about those High Fidelity Pure audio blu ray discs that have both a DTS Master Audio and a PCM track? If I choose the MA track and output PCM on my Sony I understand that my player is probably decoding the DTS and sending it as PCM to the receiver, but what about when i choose the actual PCM track? It works.

BD discs are required to send PCM tracks over HDMI.

However they take up a huge amount of space and so they are not common. I'm not sure if I have any discs with PCM 5.1, but I do have some with 2.0.

PCM on BD can support 24 bit, but PCM tracks I think are usually 16 bit, which is fine as it is the same as CD.

As stated, if you want to really enjoy loss less codecs, without hassle you need a receiver that can handle decode from the bit stream.

 

[j_garcia]

There are some discs with uncompressed PCM tracks on them, but those are all early BDs, not current ones. Few if any have come out with an uncompressed PCM track in a while.

 

[TLS Guy]

There are some discs with uncompressed PCM tracks on them, but those are all early BDs, not current ones. Few if any have come out with an uncompressed PCM track in a while.

That probably explains why I don't think I have discs with uncompressed PCM channels other than 2.0 and those are old ones at that. The other thing is that if they do put on PCM tracks they have to increse video compression.

From what I can tell you need a high end BD player to send multi channel PCM over HDMI from Dolby Digital True HD, Dolby Digital plus, DTS, DTS HD and DTS Master HD. If you are going to spend that much it seems it would be a better investment to upgrade the receiver.

So from what I can tell it is basically fallacy to give people the advice that they can send los less PCM over HDMI if their receivers lack loss less codecs. Far more likely they will get Dolby Digital and DTS core converted to PCM. For a cheap player they may get only Dolby Digital as that meets minimum regulations.

 

[whgarrett1394]

I am reopening this thread because I found some info on my Sony blu-ray player that seems to explain why I could not get the multichannel pcm from blu ray discs when they contained the Dolby TrueHD lossless codec. Supposedly Sony machines from 2013 on can only internally decode Dolby TrueHD and output it as 2.0 pcm. Here are the links I found

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/328213-sony-bdp-s5100-blu-ray-disc-player-review/

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/1450585-official-sony-bdp-s1100-bdp-s3100-bdp-s4100-bdp-s5100-90.html

This is for anyone who maybe having the same frustrating problem as I.

I have decided that the Marantz sr5001 receiver must be able to accept hi-rez multichannel pcm via hdmi. I have numerous blu-ray AUDIO discs where the album is encoded in 5.1 pcm 24bit/192khz and my player when outputting pcm can send discrete multichannel audio to the receiver. I don't see any other possibility unless the Sony player or receiver can compress the tracks in real time. I know I'm weird.

 

[JMJVK]

I'm using a few older AVRs at home, and one of them does not even have HDMI, I chose to use higher end players with analog outputs. I have absolutely nothing to complain about. Playback is flawless, do the same.

Your Marantz sr5001 has the analog inputs. Your receiver is of sufficient quality that, if paired using analog transport to a device such as an Oppo player, you will have crystal-clear playback, very low noise floor, and benefit from a very competent and modern DAC.

One can use any older receiver with discreet 5.1 or 7.1 analog audio input with the right modern BlueRay player, using analog outputs, and get to use MLP, DSD, DTS-HD Master and Dolby TrueHD sources.

The Oppo BDP-103 is currently the best all-around optical disc player supporting all current optical formats. It's also quite a decent network streamer, supporting real network shares, along with DLNA, and even NTFS formated USB portable storage. With two HDMIs, it lets you split the signal, with video out to TV and/or receiver and the sound to AVR via analog.

This allows a few good scenarios, two suggestions:

- Sound to receiver via analog and video HDMI straight to TV
- Sound to receiver via analog, one video HDMI to TV, the other HDMI video to receiver(to allow access your receiver's OSD).

 

[PENG]

Do you think it is the player or the Marantz?

Another weird fact is the DTS Master Audio 7.1 discs. I only have two of them. They play fine. Everything lights up, but the center channels fails to work. Both discs. Same thing.

Any help or suggestions or just your 0.02 would be appreciated. Thanks.

The Sony can certainly decode DDTruHD and DTSMSTR and output in PCM multichannel audio unless it is defective. The SR5001 cannot play the PCM multchannel audio. If you read the instruction manual page 34 and 35 it tells you it PCM audio multichannel is subject to Prologic. That means even when you play the lossy discs you are not getting the discrete 5.1 but prologic 5.1.

If you read the manual of the SR5003 you will see that it can take PCM multichannel input without inflicting prologic so the Sony will do the decoding and displaying the lossless information. The receiver will not display DDTruHD or DTSMSTR as it is not the one doing the decoding.

 

[whgarrett1394]

So you are saying when I have the Sony BDP output PCM, the player "sees" that the receiver can't accept the multichannel and instead it only sends a stereo signal. The receiver then uses prologic to create the surround that I'm hearing?

I found two places that said Sony quit paying Dolby the rights to decode Multichannel Dolby in all players after 2013.

 

[PENG]

So you are saying when I have the Sony BDP output PCM, the player "sees" that the receiver can't accept the multichannel and instead it only sends a stereo signal. The receiver then uses prologic to create the surround that I'm hearing?

No I did not say that. I just interpreted what I read from the instruction manual of the SR5001 and SR5003. The SR5001 manual says mult channel PCM audio is subject to prologic so my educated guess is that it is the SR5001 that applies prologic to the signal. I think the Sony would still output the decoded signal as discrete multichannel faithfully whether it is DDTHD or whatever.

I found two places that said Sony quit paying Dolby the rights to decode Multichannel Dolby in all players after 2013.

I have no idea. I tend to believe what Sony says in their website and their users manuals.

 

[JMJVK]

I found two places that said Sony quit paying Dolby the rights to decode Multichannel Dolby in all players after 2013.

This does not make any sense at all. Sony is not just a Blu Ray device maker, it's also owner of the BluRay format and patents, on top of being huge content creators and publishers. They are too involved and too many different contracts across to many corporate divisions would come back to haunt them in costly litigation. I'm not saying it's impossible or incorect, but it does seem to me like a very unlikely scenario.

The SR5001 manual says multi-channel PCM audio is subject to prologic

If this is true, and I don't have any reason to doubt Peng's assertion, it means the only way to gets descreet multi-channel sound from every possible codec requires the OP to dump the Sony player, and get something with a modern onboard DAC and mult-channel analog outputs like the Oppo BDP-103, or he has to replace his receiver.

The OP may use any other device with a modern onboard DAC and mult-channel analog outputs, Oppo's not the only choice, but it's either the Sony or the receiver.

 

[whgarrett1394]

Hi PENG and JMJVK. I read the manual and I think that it doesn't mean ALL pcm is subject to prologic.

The part I think you are looking at on 34,35 says, "PCM-audio signals can be subjected to Pro Logic processing when the sampling frequency is 32, 44.1, and 48khz."

It also says that pcm signals at sampling frequencies of 96khz will be muted if played with the receiver's surround modes.

As far as the Sony player not decoding Dolby formats. I'm not sure if what I found was correct but it made sense to me.

I have used three post 2013 Sony blu ray players and each one only decoded Dolby TrueHD internally and output as 2.0 pcm.

I have a Samsung that gives me all channels correctly when internally decoding Dolby TrueHD.

Thanks again for the input. I am saving up for an Oppo 103.