Was looking for Bose Acoustimas 10, what now?

[TLS Guy]

Thank you for taking the time to help View attachment 13965
Having looked at the Denon AVR S900W I'm really liking the ability to upscale to 4K.
It has a "pre-out" but appears to be singular, with a single sub pre out as well.
The ability to Bluetooth from iPhone and wirelessly connect to web radio has my attention as well.
The Denon also can achieve limited 4 Ohm output I believe for the European mkt.
Would the Denon pre out work like the Marantz? The pics are different.

Whatever AVR I get (and am open to starting a new thread for that alone if you think that would be beneficial)
I would probably start with 2 rear speakers in addition to my current setup.
So if I just hook into the rear jacks on the AVR, does that sound like it would be ok
with either a 5.1 up to a 7.2 AVR, the rear jacks will be all that's connected to the AVR amp
and that is ok right?

Well I did look at those and have also done some of my own research with your alls
as a starting point. What I came up with was I'm also looking at a 12" XTZ
XTZ 99 W12.16 Matt Black - Subwoofer, XTZ, High Glossy, Swedish Design, Speaker
That was last night, the TLS chimes in saying I should be looking at a sealed sub.
I really don't know why, and at this point you guys are probably wandering why I don't
just buy a subscription to an audiophile/HT magazine…well I know how important forums are
when researching things, and you can learn a bundle, while waiting for the 12 months copy
to show up in your mailbox to get more info under your belt. Something a forum could possibly
condense into a week or less

So why a sealed sub vs the one I linked here with ports. I have always dreamt of building my
own pair of dual 12" sub woofers with African Mahogany, and bridging my amp. Then I got married

That Denon AVR is no use to you as it only has LFE preouts. You would have to ditch your Carver amp which I do not advise. Receiver amps are junk compared to your Carver and may well self destruct driving electrostatic tweeters.

Two subs are nice but I would start with one.

You have electrostatic panels, which are non resonant. Ported speakers are resonant by definition. A sealed sub will be a much better match. It is very hard to blend subs with electrostatic loudspeakers. Personally I think one sub will be enough to start with. My recollection was correct the -3db point of your panels is right around 50 Hz. All you need to do is supplement them gently, not cross them over. Because of the very different nature of electrostatics, you will have to be subtle in the use of a sub.

I would use this, and add another if you feel is is needed. What you absolutely need to avoid is a nasty resonant sub. There are boat loads of of those by the way.

You already have a superior system the goal has to be not to spoil it.

If you look for other receivers, they must at least have right and left pre outs as well as LFE outs. Nothing else will do the job for you.

 

[Acoustat]

Yeh I would definitely start with a single sub and go from there.
Rear speakers are going to have to have priority to a 2nd sub for now.

I had to look up http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf
to get an idea of what I was missing with the Denon. LFE was Greek to me.
What does not make sense if the overview or specs of the Denon
list pre-outs as part of the connections, so I had to look.

Is there a DVR, like the Marantz, that offers 4K upscaling and Bluetooth
or connectivity to the web to stream music? The 4K has the winning priority
between the two if I had to choose upscaling over Bluetooth.
Another demanding aspect will always be very low THD.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeh I would definitely start with a single sub and go from there.
Rear speakers are going to have to have priority to a 2nd sub for now.

I had to look up http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf
to get an idea of what I was missing with the Denon. LFE was Greek to me.
What does not make sense if the overview or specs of the Denon
list pre-outs as part of the connections, so I had to look.

Is there a DVR, like the Marantz, that offers 4K upscaling and Bluetooth
or connectivity to the web to stream music? The 4K has the winning priority
between the two if I had to choose upscaling over Bluetooth.
Another demanding aspect will always be very low THD.

a pre out is a voltage output ahead of power amplification. The LFE preout is a low frequency signal for subs only. The Denon has two of these but no other preouts.

I would not worry about 4K upscaling. I don't think it amounts to a row of beans.

The most important thing is the quality of the screen. Unfortunately you can't buy a decent screen anymore. I snagged one of the last high end Panasonic screens in December. I have looked at 4K screens and none of them are a patch on what I have and its 2K.

You won't be feeding your Acoustats from the receivers power amps. The voltage stages have negligible distortion and you don't have to worry about it.

I bet there are BD players and other devices out there that have Blue Tooth.

The other way of connecting things is Chrome Casting. I don't use Blue tooth personally. Nothing against it. In one residence I use a little Sony Media player, Chrome Casting and a BD Player.

Here I use an HTPC for all streamed and downloadable media.

 

[Acoustat]

a pre out is a voltage output ahead of power amplification. The LFE preout is a low frequency signal for subs only. The Denon has two of these but no other preouts.

I would not worry about 4K upscaling. I don't think it amounts to a row of beans.

The most important thing is the quality of the screen. Unfortunately you can't buy a decent screen anymore. I snagged one of the last high end Panasonic screens in December. I have looked at 4K screens and none of them are a patch on what I have and its 2K.

You won't be feeding your Acoustats from the receivers power amps. The voltage stages have negligible distortion and you don't have to worry about it.

I bet there are BD players and other devices out there that have Blue Tooth.

The other way of connecting things is Chrome Casting. I don't use Blue tooth personally. Nothing against it. In one residence I use a little Sony Media player, Chrome Casting and a BD Player.

Here I use an HTPC for all streamed and downloadable media.

So no other receiver you know of off hand with upscaling and true pre-outs?
I'm looking, and when I find a stat that says pre outs like the Denon, it makes it hard to shop around accurately.
Oh well, I've learned a good bit here on AH in the last couple days.
I suppose there is equipment that upscales only, and BD players will do that too.

Do you think the Affordable Accuracy monitor ($165/pr) is a good rear channel speaker?
Is there a low end sound range I should be looking for, like the AA monitor is 60Hz
2 way work just fine, and 3 way unnecessary for a rear ch?

My 2012 LG TV crapped out on me and was replaced with the ext warranty. Problem is…
the old TV I paid $2500 for, now the same TV is $999, and is all we got towards a replacement,
so we paid a little more and got the next size up, same thing

 

[Acoustat]

here's yet another disappointing pre amp output blunder
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/pioneer-700w-5-2-ch-network-ready-4k-ultra-hd-and-3d-pass-through-a-v-home-theater-receiver/5096088.p?id=1219107939750&skuId=5096088&st=categoryid$abcat0202003&cp=1&lp=4

Preamp Outputs Yes Jacks that provide unamplified, low-voltage, line-level signals
for connecting components such as external amplifiers or powered speakers.

How do I find the right AVR without just taking the Marantz 1504 on a whim?
Obviously, shopping by telephone or even many show room floors may prove
nearly impossible, at least in my area. Found an Onkyo with .7% THD @1KHz
Read one review on the Marantz stating they could offer more for the dollar.
I'm just at that research stage, where some bells and whistles mean a lot
and I don't want to wish I had…after the fact ya know?

All the subs linked thus far "sound" great at this point, and what you mentioned about
the resonance issue with many subs makes sense. However, the sub you linked via hyper link
uses the MDF composite which was disappointing. HDF would not be that much of a price breaker for them to use.

 

[TLS Guy]

So no other receiver you know of off hand with upscaling and true pre-outs?
I'm looking, and when I find a stat that says pre outs like the Denon, it makes it hard to shop around accurately.
Oh well, I've learned a good bit here on AH in the last couple days.
I suppose there is equipment that upscales only, and BD players will do that too.

Do you think the Affordable Accuracy monitor ($165/pr) is a good rear channel speaker?
Is there a low end sound range I should be looking for, like the AA monitor is 60Hz
2 way work just fine, and 3 way unnecessary for a rear ch?

My 2012 LG TV crapped out on me and was replaced with the ext warranty. Problem is…
the old TV I paid $2500 for, now the same TV is $999, and is all we got towards a replacement,
so we paid a little more and got the next size up, same thing

I'm sure that there are receivers out there that have multichannel preouts and upscaling, but I suspect they are at the top end of the price scale.

If your TV is LG you don't need to worry about upscaling, You won't tell the difference I guarantee.

The receivers I mentioned will be a cost effective solution to solve your problem.

I don't know the speakers you mention.

Most people don't put a lot of money in surrounds. I'm one of the odd few that have powerful capable surrounds and rear backs.

 

[TLS Guy]

I bought the NR 1504 for my eldest son for Christmas, for his two channel AV system. It has been a stellar performer.

Look, it is a high grade processor, and functions well. It has plenty of power to drive your surrounds. The Carver will be driving your difficult to drive electrostatics.

You do not need more.

There is nothing wrong with MDF for speaker construction. In fact it is likely the best available material and what I use. It has many properties to recommend it.

I'm trying to get you a first class system on Budget, and this will do that for around $1000 less your surrounds.

 

[Acoustat]

I bought the NR 1504 for my eldest son for Christmas, for his two channel AV system. It has been a stellar performer.

Look, it is a high grade processor, and functions well. It has plenty of power to drive your surrounds. The Carver will be driving your difficult to drive electrostatics.

You do not need more.

There is nothing wrong with MDF for speaker construction. In fact it is likely the best available material and what I use. It has many properties to recommend it.

I'm trying to get you a first class system on Budget, and this will do that for around $1000 less your surrounds.

I'm not saying I do not like the Marantz, but I am not an impulse buyer either.
That said, I do believe I've located the proper AVR that meets my upscaling to 4K preference attainable

Marantz US | NR1604

Either 1604 or 1504 with add on devices can connect to the internet and stream

I am checking out the Martin Logan bookshelf speakers for the rear ATM but have not lit on
ant specific brand or specs yet. The Martin Logans fail to keep up with bass, and require the sub.
So we shall see what happens next.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not saying I do not like the Marantz, but I am not an impulse buyer either.
That said, I do believe I've located the proper AVR that meets my upscaling to 4K preference attainable

Marantz US | NR1604

Either 1604 or 1504 with add on devices can connect to the internet and stream

I am checking out the Martin Logan bookshelf speakers for the rear ATM but have not lit on
ant specific brand or specs yet. The Martin Logans fail to keep up with bass, and require the sub.
So we shall see what happens next.

You are going to need a sub anyway. The NR1604 will be fine, it will allow you to add rear channels as well.

I was just trying to keep in budget.

 

[Acoustat]

You are going to need a sub anyway. The NR1604 will be fine, it will allow you to add rear channels as well.

I was just trying to keep in budget.

Yes I need a sub, and it just got all the harder to keep in budget
as the 1604 is discontinued

 

[Acoustat]

this is probably WHY the Marantz 1604 has been discontinued so early
check the multiple FREEZE/LOCK UP reviews here

EDIT, oops, this link IS for the new receiver that took it's place. Very poor re views.
The discontinued 1604 actually had better re views, sorry for the mix up, my bad.

 

[TLS Guy]

this is probably WHY the Marantz 1604 has been discontinued so early
check the multiple FREEZE/LOCK UP reviews here

EDIT, oops, this link IS for the new receiver that took it's place. Very poor re views.
The discontinued 1604 actually had better re views, sorry for the mix up, my bad.

Well then snap up this used one then.

I think you had better make your mind up fast.

Denon Marantz can't get refinancing, and I don't what Bain Capital will do with them. It probably won't be good. Onkyo is junk from being sliced and diced. Pioneer is making noises about getting out of this market, which will leave Yamaha, who are big enough to take the loss.

This will leave boutique companies like Parasond were prices start at around 2.5 K

This home audio HT industry has never been in worse shape and I have known it for over half a century. I fear this arena will soon only be available to the very wealthy.

 

[zieglj01]

Do you think the Affordable Accuracy monitor ($165/pr) is a good rear channel speaker?
Is there a low end sound range I should be looking for, like the AA monitor is 60Hz
2 way work just fine, and 3 way unnecessary for a rear ch?

I demoed the prototype speaker, it is a solid choice for surrounds - they are smooth,
refined and detailed with good definition, with tight and controlled bass. The sound
for the price, will be an ear opener.

For many people, they can/will work as fronts with a good subwoofer.

 

[GIEGAR]

I disagree with the advice given you so far.

It distresses me when I see advice given to ditch a really nice legacy system. With your budget you can not come close to what you have now, especially those speakers.

You can easily use all you have now except your NAD preamp.

All you need a a good low powered receiver and a sealed sub like one form SVS. This will be within your budget and you will have a far better system than most members on this forum

First of all your speakers are excellent. A center speaker is not only not necessary, but should not be used with electrostatic speakers like that. As Quad point out you won't integrate the center and electrostatics will give you a very stable center image.

It is far better to have two good speakers than five or seven lousy ones. That is the way you are heading.

So get one or other of these receivers and replace your preamp with it. Both of these have 2.1 preouts, so you can connect to your Carver amp and drive a sub.

Marantz US | NR1403

Marantz US | NR1504

Now all you need is a good sealed sub. It will not need to be powerful as it will just be supplementing those panels.

When you set it up set the panels to large and set it to LFE + main and set the crossover to the sub at 60 or 80 Hz and set the level to taste.

You can add surrounds now or later if you want and the receiver will power them.

Now you will have salvaged and updated a nice legacy system, that would cost you a fortune to replace if you pretty much start from scratch.

Distressed?

Others can speak for themselves, but I DID NOT give advice or suggest that the OP "ditch" his existing system. My recommendation was given on my understanding, from the thread title and the OP's first few posts, that this was intended as a separate (but possibly co-located) surround sound system, in lieu of a Bose setup. All of the OP's existing system can be retained, including the NAD preamp.

The speakers I recommended are far from "lousy". They're good value, well designed, measure exceptionally well and will deliver a satisfyingly dynamic and 100% timbre-matched multichannel experience when powered by a low/mid-tier AVR. A method of reducing up-front costs was also suggested.

I don't think anyone suggested he ditch his existing system. The AV system basics I proposed would have been in addition to it. I think most of the others were thinking along the same lines as well.

Thanks, that sums it up nicely.

 

[Acoustat]

This is good feedback. It's so very easy to misinterpret things online.
The feedback I'm getting to integrate my existing system was not thought of
when I started this thread. Surely it is understood that using what I have in just
2 ch to watch movies, has been swell, and why I've never bothered to get into HT.

For some reason, I have not been able to use the sound out to my system since I replaced
my old rear projection TV 2 yrs ago. It just isn't working, and I'd love to get a little more into HT.
With the proposed 2.1 or 2.2 pre out, this puts a new direction into this thread, and one that has
been received quite well on this end, to integrate it, it is!

Pretty sure I'll be using the Pioneer 1124 AVR, but am confused what will happen with the subwoofer
during regular audio playback over my stereo. For most general purposes, I won't want the sub active.
I will want to try it out, yes, I will want to need it too,(crank it up) but this may require dual subs, and I'm betting money
that if I want to drive my Acoustats beyond their bass capabilities, that a separate subwoofer system would be needed
as the Pioneer and Marantz will not match the 500W/Ch @ 0db of my amp, nor will any of the subwoofers in my current price range.
This is a tangent to the thread I know, but one worth mentioning.

So my dream of building a pair dual stereo subwoofers remains a dream.
Maybe when I retire this forum could help me do that

 

[GIEGAR]

This is good feedback. It's so very easy to misinterpret things online.
The feedback I'm getting to integrate my existing system was not thought of
when I started this thread. Surely it is understood that using what I have in just
2 ch to watch movies, has been swell, and why I've never bothered to get into HT.

For some reason, I have not been able to use the sound out to my system since I replaced
my old rear projection TV 2 yrs ago. It just isn't working, and I'd love to get a little more into HT.
With the proposed 2.1 or 2.2 pre out, this puts a new direction into this thread, and one that has
been received quite well on this end, to integrate it, it is!

Pretty sure I'll be using the Pioneer 1124 AVR, but am confused what will happen with the subwoofer
during regular audio playback over my stereo. For most general purposes, I won't want the sub active.
I will want to try it out, yes, I will want to need it too,(crank it up) but this may require dual subs, and I'm betting money
that if I want to drive my Acoustats beyond their bass capabilities, that a separate subwoofer system would be needed
as the Pioneer and Marantz will not match the 500W/Ch @ 0db of my amp, nor will any of the subwoofers in my current price range.
This is a tangent to the thread I know, but one worth mentioning.

So my dream of building a pair dual stereo subwoofers remains a dream.
Maybe when I retire this forum could help me do that

Acoustat, please understand that I was not having a crack at you with my post. It's all good. I was simply objecting to having my recommendation mischaracterised as advising you to ditch your existing gear.

I respect your decision to integrate HT sound into your existing system. Although not without it's challanges (as you are finding), I think the solution being arrived at is a good one for your specific needs.

I'll try to respond to your AVR and sub questions in your other thread.

 

[Acoustat]

Well, I hate our new TV. We're on our 2nd LG that was replaced under ext warranty
and the LG Blu Ray player also has it's issues. I'm done with LG no matter how good
the picture looks. Ya gotta have a picture to begin with and stay on too

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I hate our new TV. We're on our 2nd LG that was replaced under ext warranty
and the LG Blu Ray player also has it's issues. I'm done with LG no matter how good
the picture looks. Ya gotta have a picture to begin with and stay on too

Get used to it, the world is awash in junk, most of it from a defined geographic region. The real problem is it is aided abetted and organized by out useless overpaid and rewarded ruling classes.

 

[Acoustat]

Well so much for budget. I was able to secure an AVR just under budget
and it looks like the next 2 upgrades will probably surpass that a tad, each
bringing me to 3X original budget

So do you guys do build threads on this forum like we do on The Reef Tank?
Last check my build thread there had ~323,000 views though this build isn't
nearly as exhaustive as it took me 117 pages to get water in my tank
here's a quick look at the cabinetry and show tank I built.
Update 1 1 14 - The Reef Tank Gallery

 

[Pro People]

Just a quick note for now, but others will most likely follow up.

That Bose system isn't fit to shine the shoes of your current system and that' not simply Bose bashing: It's a simple fact.

Also, from your stated expectations, it doesn't come close to them either.

What it I good for is non-critical listeners who want a small appliance that produces mediocre sound without drawing visual attention to itself.

Mark - On what basis you said it won't shine? Regardless of what amps u drive the bose for as long as it meets the requirement as stated, then sure it will shine. Mediocre sound? - again what is the basis u say like this? U must compared it from something but what is that brand and size?