Was looking for Bose Acoustimas 10, what now?

[Acoustat]

Hey guys
Newbie here on this forum. My 1988 home stereo obviously does not
function with todays 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound theatre systems.

I've always been interested in the Bose AM 10, but read on this forum
that it has a lot of short comings. I love crisp highs and thunderous crisp
well defined lows without a stitch of audible distortion. With a near cap
price range equal to the Bose AM, what would you suggest.

My home stereo comprises of component equipment that nearly
equals the price of the Bose, individually, so I really need to get
the most out of my money, trying to compliment video love
with audio love. I have:
Carver TFM-45 amp (Single 2ch 4 Ohm, idles @ 500W/ch @ 0db)
NAD 1700 pre amp
Acoustat 3300 speakers
Nakamichi CR 3A cassette, and CD, Denon Eq, B&O turntable and so on
to give you an idea of the quality I strive for in perhaps a class B history.
Though I'm not sure I can afford a class B theatre system nowadays.

I'm not going to be as crucial on the amp, as I have a wonderful 2 ch. amp for music.
I just want to strive for a speaker system that will deliver and mirror a decent amps
performance, hopefully capable of 20Hz lows, even though most audiophiles will never
reach that depth. I believe if the system is capable of lower ranges, it will have the reserve
to handle say 33Hz with less distortion, than a system that only has a 33Hz low cap.
Thanks

 

[markw]

Just a quick note for now, but others will most likely follow up.

That Bose system isn't fit to shine the shoes of your current system and that' not simply Bose bashing: It's a simple fact.

Also, from your stated expectations, it doesn't come close to them either.

What it I good for is non-critical listeners who want a small appliance that produces mediocre sound without drawing visual attention to itself.

 

[Acoustat]

LOL thanks Mark. I think if I could afford a pr of Martin Logan's and and Silver Sevens
I would be happy and be content with what was built into my current wall mount TV :funny:
I know a grand isn't enough to be an upgrade to my current audio only, pleasure
but is a starting point as we just got a new TV and forfeited the 4K def since the majority
of programs and such won't be broadcast or received here, in that capacity.
But oh the drool on the curved screens with the 4K Blu Ray going :drool:

 

[zieglj01]

For $430 - 2 pair of the AAL bookshelf speakers, and the center channel
Affordable Accuracy

Mate it with the Outlaw LFM-1 sub that is on sale, or the HSU VTF-2
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/lfm1plus.html

VTF-2 MK4 Subwoofer

 

[ImcLoud]

So your budget is $1000 for 5 speakers and a sub.
Look into wave crest hvl1's, HSU subs vtf1 or 2, fluance surrounds, and the aals listed above..

 

[markw]

As others have pointed out, you can get pretty fine sound for movies with some of the systems suggested. A powerful sub is the key to HT.

The main, center, and surround speakers don't have to be as large and expensive as your two-channel speakers to still provide a very satisfying HT experience.

Don't forget you'll need a multi-channel receiver to power these new speakers. You might want to add a few hundred dollars to your budget for one of those

 

[Acoustat]

For $430 - 2 pair of the AAL bookshelf speakers, and the center channel


Mate it with the Outlaw LFM-1 sub that is on sale, or the HSU VTF-2

So your budget is $1000 for 5 speakers and a sub.
Look into wave crest hvl1's, HSU subs vtf1 or 2, fluance surrounds, and the aals listed above..

Thanks for the links guys.
So the AAL speakers look like a nice affordable speaker.

The VTF-2 MK4 sub, powered, not passive right?
Pardon the ignorance please, but how do I run a powered
subwoofer, from an amp that is designed for this,
does it just send a signal being the .1 in the 5.1 line up
without power? Obviously theatre is not my calling

Do the 12" long throw woofers suffer a digital dynamic loss
in response time? Can't wait to watch Jurassic Park when I
get this going, but that movie seems to be not terribly quick paced
in the bass reflex, or subwoofer category.

Part 2 question:
My speakers have a cross over switch on the back for I'm guessing...
100-125Hz down to a passive subwoofer. With banana plugs I just flip the switch, and hook up to the sub, and t's going.
Can a passive sub work with home theatre 5.1 amps?
Can I run a wye or splitter and run both L and R channels into a single sub
from my current setup which does not involve theatre.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm sure I'm forgetting several things
and putting multiple questions into a single post things can get lost
unless quoting from within the post. Sorry bout that.

If I could use my current speakers
(4 ohms, a min. 100w/ch to drive them)
and add 3.1 what do you think? Would there be an issue getting
an amp to handle 4 and 8 ohms simultaneously?

 

[ImcLoud]

An avr will handle everything for you, I know its a lot to take in, especially coming from a music system background, they are 2 different animals.. With music you want nothing changing the sound, with HT you let a processor change EVERYTHING from balance and fade to every aspect of tone... THe avr will have an output marked "lfe" or "sub out" and that will give the subs internal amplifier the signal to send to the sub...

I always say the sub is the most important part of the HT system, do not skimp in that department, the vtf2 is an awesome unit, I have a pair of them but one is more than enough, you will be impressed... I only have two because my room is an acoustic nightmare and it even s out the response having the pair of subs...

 

[Acoustat]

An avr will handle everything for you, I know its a lot to take in, especially coming from a music system background, they are 2 different animals.. With music you want nothing changing the sound, with HT you let a processor change EVERYTHING from balance and fade to every aspect of tone... THe avr will have an output marked "lfe" or "sub out" and that will give the subs internal amplifier the signal to send to the sub...

I always say the sub is the most important part of the HT system, do not skimp in that department, the vtf2 is an awesome unit, I have a pair of them but one is more than enough, you will be impressed... I only have two because my room is an acoustic nightmare and it even s out the response having the pair of subs...

I figured the avr would take care of business, I just never understood how it subtracted the power
from the signal to not interfere with the powered sub.

I'm really liking the Klipsch RF 42 ll Reference Series, but that leaves no room
for the AVR in the bank. Also, not finding specs on freq response.

Denon, Yamaha or Onkyo?
7.1, 7.2, or 9.2 if I only use 5.1 right now?
4K is a future upgrade and will be purchased in the AVR.
I want something that will fit the bill for 20 yrs
that I won''t have to upgrade the AVR if I upgrade other components.

 

[GIEGAR]

I figured the avr would take care of business, I just never understood how it subtracted the power
from the signal to not interfere with the powered sub.

Yes, the subwoofer jack(s) on an AVR are a preamp output.

Also, something to note here... The ".1" ("point one") denotes the LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel and there is only one. In recent times however, AVR/processor manufacturers have hijacked the nomenclature and use it to indicate the number of subwoofer output jacks on their products. Accordingly, AV enthusiasts have followed suit and use it as shorthand to indicate the number of subs in a HT speaker system. (I've done it below.) This may be confusing because the sub output jack can contain more than the contents of the .1 LFE channel. The 5 or 7 "satellite" channels are full range channels and do contain low bass content. However at the user's discretion, the processor will envoke it's digital bass management scheme and redirect all bass content below a (user defined) crossover frequency from nominated groups of satellite channels and sum it with the LFE channel content for ultimate output to the sub output jack(s).

I'm really liking the Klipsch RF 42 ll Reference Series, but that leaves no room
for the AVR in the bank. Also, not finding specs on freq response.

I would aim a bit higher, but defray your initial costs. Take a look at this recommendation: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/beginners-audiophytes/92005-dual-bose-am-10-subs-wiring-question.html#post1051472 for a ~$2.5K, "7.2" system. A similar 5.1 system with Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE's for surrounds would come to $1780 shipped. You could ultimately get to this by starting with the pair of CBM-170 SE's for mains and the Rythmik LV12R sub (total $950 shipped) and building the system over time.

Any of the subs from the likes of Rythmik, Hsu Research, Outlaw and SVS are solid products and offer very good levels of performance for the price.

Denon, Yamaha or Onkyo?
7.1, 7.2, or 9.2 if I only use 5.1 right now?
4K is a future upgrade and will be purchased in the AVR.
I want something that will fit the bill for 20 yrs
that I won''t have to upgrade the AVR if I upgrade other components.

IMO, the primary (or only) determinate of sound quality in a modern AVR is the implementation/quality of it's auto setup and "room EQ" routine. Arguably the best of these routines in a consumer level AVR is Audyssey MultEQ. Within your budget, the further you can get yourself up the Audyssey "food chain", the more opportunity you'll have of achieving a great sounding HT experience. This eliminates Yamaha and the new Onkyo models, which have dropped Audyssey. So, of the current crop of AVR's, we are left with Denon.

To narrow it down further, lets look at budget. It's generally accepted that if you've spent more than about 25% of your audio budget on an AVR, you've probably overspent. In other words, that money would have been better spent funding superior speakers/subs. Assuming say a $2500 ultimate spend on speakers, that equates to an AVR budget of up to $650.

In terms of new Denons, that puts you at this years S900W or last years X3000. Here is acomparison: Denon AVR-S900W vs Denon AVR-X3000 IN-Command. Out of those my pick is the X3000 for the Audyssey MultEQ XT and marginal extra power. The X3000 will passthrough 4K content and your (future) 4K display will upscale HD to 4K.

If you're prepared to go factory refurbished, you can consider the more powerful, but slightly older DENON AVR-3313CI 7.2 Networking Receiver w/AirPlay 3D & 4K Ready | Accessories4less.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Acoustat]

Thanks Gieger! Sure it helps, and I had been looking at the Denon S500BT.
One review cited having to use frayed wires for the speaker connections.
Any thoughts?

Thanks for the effort ad input.

 

[GIEGAR]

Thanks Gieger! Sure it helps, and I had been looking at the Denon S500BT.
One review cited having to use frayed wires for the speaker connections.
Any thoughts?

Thanks for the effort ad input.

No worries, I had some time on my hands.

The reference to using frayed wires for speaker connections is probably related to the Denon AVR-S500BT having spring clip speaker terminals (which can only take fairly thin speaker wire) in lieu of the more substantial binding posts found on other models.

I would urge you if at all possible to step up to a Denon AVR-S700W as a minimum, primarily because it runs Audyssey MultEQ and Dynamic EQ. By contrast, the S500BT does not have Audyssey at all. Denon S-Series A/V Receivers Preview | Audioholics

If you can manage it, the Denon AVR-X1100 would be even better: Denon AVR-S700W vs Denon AVR-X1100W IN-Command.


What did you make of the speaker/sub recommendations?

 

[TLS Guy]

I disagree with the advice given you so far.

It distresses me when I see advice given to ditch a really nice legacy system. With your budget you can not come close to what you have now, especially those speakers.

You can easily use all you have now except your NAD preamp.

All you need a a good low powered receiver and a sealed sub like one form SVS. This will be within your budget and you will have a far better system than most members on this forum

First of all your speakers are excellent. A center speaker is not only not necessary, but should not be used with electrostatic speakers like that. As Quad point out you won't integrate the center and electrostatics will give you a very stable center image.

It is far better to have two good speakers than five or seven lousy ones. That is the way you are heading.

So get one or other of these receivers and replace your preamp with it. Both of these have 2.1 preouts, so you can connect to your Carver amp and drive a sub.

Marantz US | NR1403

Marantz US | NR1504

Now all you need is a good sealed sub. It will not need to be powerful as it will just be supplementing those panels.

When you set it up set the panels to large and set it to LFE + main and set the crossover to the sub at 60 or 80 Hz and set the level to taste.

You can add surrounds now or later if you want and the receiver will power them.

Now you will have salvaged and updated a nice legacy system, that would cost you a fortune to replace if you pretty much start from scratch.

 

[markw]

I don't think anyone suggested he ditch his existing system. The AV system basics I proposed would have been in addition to it. I think most of the others were thinking along the same lines as well.

 

[Acoustat]

I disagree with the advice given you so far.

It distresses me when I see advice given to ditch a really nice legacy system. With your budget you can not come close to what you have now, especially those speakers.

You can easily use all you have now except your NAD preamp.

All you need a a good low powered receiver and a sealed sub like one form SVS. This will be within your budget and you will have a far better system than most members on this forum

First of all your speakers are excellent. A center speaker is not only not necessary, but should not be used with electrostatic speakers like that. As Quad point out you won't integrate the center and electrostatics will give you a very stable center image.

It is far better to have two good speakers than five or seven lousy ones. That is the way you are heading.

So get one or other of these receivers and replace your preamp with it. Both of these have 2.1 preouts, so you can connect to your Carver amp and drive a sub.

Now all you need is a good sealed sub. It will not need to be powerful as it will just be supplementing those panels.

When you set it up set the panels to large and set it to LFE + main and set the crossover to the sub at 60 or 80 Hz and set the level to taste.

You can add surrounds now or later if you want and the receiver will power them.

Now you will have salvaged and updated a nice legacy system, that would cost you a fortune to replace if you pretty much start from scratch.

Thank you TLS Guy. I did not understand previous posts to include any part of my existing system. Sorry I missed that Markw.
I thought previous posts were proposing 2 separate systems, one HT one keep the audio I have for what it is.

TLS Guy, I do have a fantastic centre stage sound field. That's one thing that many enthusiasts dislike about speakers than have a "sweet spot"
and these indeed have that. If I'm listening to music and fall asleep, when someone walks in front of a speaker, it wakes me up
as the sound field collapses. I have them out from the wall 3-4' so the sound does indeed wrap around and provide an invisible sound point
meaning, when set up properly and acoustics are fairly optimal, (mine are not where I live now) the speakers disappear and voices and instruments
audibly appear to come from different elevations and distances. Many do not understand the panels force sound out the back as they do out the front.

Now what I am very very confused about is the NR1504 and using my amp. I am stumped.
Quoting the Marantz page you so kindly linked...

High power 5 channels amplifier with discrete output devices

Featuring identical circuit topology over all five power amplifier channels that are each rated at 60 watts,
the NR1504 is equipped with discrete high current output devices. Since all five amp channels are of the same exact design,
there’s no variation in sound quality between channels at all, for a true high fidelity surround sound listening experience.

You said using a low power amp, so I am confused, sorry.
Also, @60W/ch X 5 (I'm not aware yet of the said 2.1 and how that will work with the amp)
is not enough to drive my speakers and could damage them as I'm sure you picked up on
the post where I said they require 100W/ch @ 4 Ohm. I do not mean to insult your intelligence
by pointing this out, but my ignorance is not so blissful ATM

Also, the amp, requiring a passive input from the current pre-amp,
as I understand it, no power can be applied to the input of the amplifier,
so forgive me for asking, but how do I go about protecting my Carver?

I would like to say at this point, my Carver TFM-45 is supposed to be sonically
"cloned" or tactfully replicating, in solid state, what the amps in my Avatar are (Silver Sevens), in their tube style.
So if indeed there is any way I could incorporate the most of my sound system into a 4.1 that would be splendid!!!

Now for the crossover(s)
1 sub or 2? One is all the bass my wife would care for, and volume wise would be perfect for the level
of sound we ever play movies at. Would I just flip the cross over on the back of both of my speaker drivers
to the PASSIVE sub woofer via a pair of monster cables plugged into a wye or 3 way splitter, into a single sub?
See, if I use the crossover on my speakers, the sub has to be non powered. None of which have been recommended yet,
so really I thought we were looking at 2 totally different sound systems.
I do like the slim line effect the Marantz has, but see issues using my current amp with it given my old school status.

 

[Acoustat]

Both of these have 2.1 preouts, so you can connect to your Carver amp and drive a sub.

Ahhh, I enlarged the pic of the back of the 1504 and helped me understand your 2.1 pre-out here.
So…the sub can be active if I understand this picture of the back panel?
Also, can I use just the 2 not 2.1 and use a passive sub powered by my Carver?
No idea if the 2 channels have a crossover to the sub pre-out. If so, then no on the passive
unless the internal Marantz crossover is selectable on the control panel.
I looked at the specs of the Marantz, and 4 Ohms not there, so the pre-outs, are the only way it could work.
Am I getting the picture focused in a bit now?

 

[TLS Guy]

Ahhh, I enlarged the pic of the back of the 1504 and helped me understand your 2.1 pre-out here.
So…the sub can be active if I understand this picture of the back panel?
Also, can I use just the 2 not 2.1 and use a passive sub powered by my Carver?
No idea if the 2 channels have a crossover to the sub pre-out. If so, then no on the passive
unless the internal Marantz crossover is selectable on the control panel.
I looked at the specs of the Marantz, and 4 Ohms not there, so the pre-outs, are the only way it could work.
Am I getting the picture focused in a bit now?

No you need a powered sub.

Your set up is simple.

You connect your Carver to the left and right pre outs on the Marantz. You connect the sub to the LFE out on the Marantz. You connect your peripherals to the Marantz, HDMI for those that have it. One HDMI cables goes to your TV and you are done.

Now if you want surrounds, you connect them to the surround speaker terminals. The only power coming from the Marantz will be to the surrounds.

Your Acoustats will be powered by the Carver, the sub by its own amplifier. So the power rating of the Marantz in your case, except for the surrounds is irrelevant. No power will be drawn form the right and left pre outs or the LFE, just a voltage supply to drive the Carver and sub.

This is a simple cost effective solution to your problem and will work really well for you.

 

[Acoustat]

No you need a powered sub.

Your set up is simple.

You connect your Carver to the left and right pre outs on the Marantz. You connect the sub to the LFE out on the Marantz. You connect your peripherals to the Marantz, HDMI for those that have it. One HDMI cables goes to your TV and you are done.

Now if you want surrounds, you connect them to the surround speaker terminals. The only power coming from the Marantz will be to the surrounds.

Your Acoustats will be powered by the Carver, the sub by its own amplifier. So the power rating of the Marantz in your case, except for the surrounds is irrelevant. No power will be drawn form the right and left pre outs or the LFE, just a voltage supply to drive the Carver and sub.

This is a simple cost effective solution to your problem and will work really well for you.

Thank you for taking the time to help
Having looked at the Denon AVR S900W I'm really liking the ability to upscale to 4K.
It has a "pre-out" but appears to be singular, with a single sub pre out as well.
The ability to Bluetooth from iPhone and wirelessly connect to web radio has my attention as well.
The Denon also can achieve limited 4 Ohm output I believe for the European mkt.
Would the Denon pre out work like the Marantz? The pics are different.

Whatever AVR I get (and am open to starting a new thread for that alone if you think that would be beneficial)
I would probably start with 2 rear speakers in addition to my current setup.
So if I just hook into the rear jacks on the AVR, does that sound like it would be ok
with either a 5.1 up to a 7.2 AVR, the rear jacks will be all that's connected to the AVR amp
and that is ok right?

What did you make of the speaker/sub recommendations?

Well I did look at those and have also done some of my own research with your alls
as a starting point. What I came up with was I'm also looking at a 12" XTZ
XTZ 99 W12.16 Matt Black - Subwoofer, XTZ, High Glossy, Swedish Design, Speaker
That was last night, the TLS chimes in saying I should be looking at a sealed sub.
I really don't know why, and at this point you guys are probably wandering why I don't
just buy a subscription to an audiophile/HT magazine…well I know how important forums are
when researching things, and you can learn a bundle, while waiting for the 12 months copy
to show up in your mailbox to get more info under your belt. Something a forum could possibly
condense into a week or less

So why a sealed sub vs the one I linked here with ports. I have always dreamt of building my
own pair of dual 12" sub woofers with African Mahogany, and bridging my amp. Then I got married

 

[Acoustat]

A versatile subwoofer
Just read how flexible that XTZ subwoofer is. You can plug the bass reflex bungs and the tuning is very versatile.
Was actually looking at the matte black, not the gloss.

 

[GranteedEV]

I recommend multiple subs if possible.