How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If it sounds good, it is good.

No doubt there are many experienced (15 to 30+ years) speaker design experts. And each expert has his own philosophy - his own "right" and "wrong". Each design has its pros and cons.

In the end people will buy whatever sounds the best to them subjectively, not what some experts think is right or wrong.

That could be Philharmonic, Salk, Ascend, Funk, Revel, KEF, B&W, Focal, PSB, RBH, NHT, Paradigm, Golden-Ear, Definitive Technology, and many more brands.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

If you like french horns.

This has one of the best captured sounds of them that I know of. They sound like I remember playing them.

GUSTAV HOLST - THE PLANETS - PHILHARMONIA ORCHESTRA

 

[ImcLoud]

If it sounds good, it is good.
In the end people will buy whatever sounds the best to them subjectively, not what some experts think is right or wrong.

That could be Philharmonic, Salk, Ascend, Funk, Revel, KEF, B&W, Focal, PSB, RBH, NHT, Paradigm, Golden-Ear, Definitive Technology, and many more brands.

I think we all have varying preferences, I don't like a bright top end, I like a lot of bass, and the mids to be natural sounding {real}, so I look for a speaker that comes close to what I want in all them areas, looks how I want it to look and costs what i think its worth... As far as design, I never paid a ton of attention to it, for some reason 2 way bookshelfs with ribbon tweeters seem to sound very good to me, but I also like the sound of the psb imagine T2's, and I have heard some maggies that sound awesome when set up correctly...

So I agree, we all like what we like, I have a friend that swears by zu speakers, he spent a ton of money on a pair of definitions {not sure exactly how much but I think it was over $10K} and when I heard them I was NOT impressed, I would honestly put them beneath a pair of PSB imagine T's that you can buy for $1000.. BUT he loves them, powers them with a pair of tube mono blocks and his source is a reg TT with a bryston preamp, I think the sound of a pair of epos epic2 bookshelfs and an m1 amp sound better for $25K less than he paid, but he likes it so that is all that matters, he may look at my systems and laugh at what I think sounds good {not that I laughed at his system, it is actually really sexy all lit up...}...

So the trick to buying high end speakers in my opinion has very little to do with graphs and microphones, sure when building the speaker them items are priceless, BUT for buying them, I prefer to leave them items to the pros and let my ears tell me what is good. If they pass that test then I will move onto looks, value, cs, warranty, ect...

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Yep it's all about the music man.

The more I learn about this stuff the more I find out I don't know.

Keeps me busy!

I'm constantly trying to figure out ways to accomplish something different.

What has always blown me away is that you can take bits of paper or metal or plastic and mount them on fairly crude linear motors and you get a decently convincing rendition of people making music.

What is there not to be fascinated with in this?

 

[Irvrobinson]

The problem with the "if it sounds good it is good" philosophy, and the "graphs don't matter" philosophy is coloration. To many listeners, especially people who seldom listen to unamplified live music or voices, which includes most of us, a saddle-shaped frequency response can initially sound pleasing. Everyone likes a plump deep bass and mid-bass, and many people associate brightness with what is actually the upper midrange, so they like it depressed a bit, and highs above 4KHz can sound more exciting to some people if they don't roll off naturally as they would in a large recording venue. Coloration doesn't go away; it lends a sameness to every recording played back through the highly colored speakers. I've found we can be trained to identify coloration by ear, by looking for differences between recordings, but it is difficult. I think properly generated graphs can tell you a lot about a speaker, and especially taking in-room measurements at your listening seat. Yes, it takes some equipment. Yes, it takes a little research to learn about how to take the measurements, but it isn't expensive and it opens up your mind.

Sure, every speaker is colored to some degree, but there is a wide variance between them.

As I've posted earlier in this thread, and many times before, I'm a great believer in listening before buying. I normally insist on that even with electronics, not because I expect them to sound obviously different, but I look for product design anomalies that will annoy me later. With speakers, however, I don't think listening is enough. It is necessary and IMO mandatory, but insufficient. If you don't care about coloration, that you'll never notice that sameness between recordings, fine, just listen before buying. I've just never been able to tolerate substantially colored speakers for very long. BTW, the least subjectively colored speakers I've ever heard are the Sound Lab electrostatics. Amazing devices. Just too expensive and huge for my current circumstances.

 

[herbu]

The more I learn about this stuff the more I find out I don't know.

Oh Geez!!! So for the pedestrian, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here". Guess that's why it's back to the ears. But still having the perhaps foolish notion that I can at least narrow the choices with a modicum of education, I'll ask another question.

Dennis, the mid & high range of the Phil 3s have 1 driver each.

1) What would happen if you built a speaker with 2 pair, or 3 pair of the same drivers? Benefits? Disadvantages?

2) This pair of mid/high drivers is different in the Slim Tower and the Philharmonitors. Why?

Thanks!

 

[Swerd]

I'm enjoying this thread . Please don't stop.

If you like french horns.

This has one of the best captured sounds of them that I know of. They sound like I remember playing them.

GUSTAV HOLST - THE PLANETS - PHILHARMONIA ORCHESTRA

I have an old LP of the Planets that I haven't played in ages. It might be that same recording.

Another French horn recording I've used to test speakers is Aaron Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It's the Telarc CD of the Atlanta Symphony.

In the end people will buy whatever sounds the best to them subjectively, not what some experts think is right or wrong.

You're smiling about this, but this can also be seen as the manipulative marketing part of audio that I and others am so unhappy with.

We've been on B&W's case with regard to their trademark Kevlar drivers, but they clearly know a thing or two about marketing. In a store with many different speakers competing for customers, they know that those highly visible amber drivers look different than the usual run of the mill speakers with boring black drivers.

And they certainly sound different too. Compared to something like Bose cube speakers, they stand out. Many customers have been seduced by their "etched" sound in the store, only to find later learn they can't listen without suffering from the dreaded listener's fatigue.

But the problem remains that these people did buy what they thought sounded best at the time they were buying.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

I'm enjoying this thread . Please don't stop.

I have an old LP of the Planets that I haven't played in ages. It might be that same recording.

Another French horn recording I've used to test speakers is Aaron Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man. It's the Telarc CD of the Atlanta Symphony.

You're smiling about this, but this can also be seen as the manipulative marketing part of audio that I and others am so unhappy with.

We've been on B&W's case with regard to their trademark Kevlar drivers, but they clearly know a thing or two about marketing. In a store with many different speakers competing for customers, they know that those highly visible amber drivers look different than the usual run of the mill speakers with boring black drivers.

And they certainly sound different too. Compared to something like Bose cube speakers, they stand out. Many customers have been seduced by their "etched" sound in the store, only to find later learn they can't listen without suffering from the dreaded listener's fatigue.

But the problem remains that these people did buy what they thought sounded best at the time they were buying.

Well, with a good demo just about every mid to high end speaker will sound good in the store to a layman. I think then it comes down to branding, marketing, the salesman, the look and aesthetics of the speaker, and the visual build quality. Ironically, especially in audio, salesmen are ****ing terrible with maintaining brand image - so, a lot of it rests on B&W.

If I was a high end speaker company, I'd look into the merchandise marts and making deals with interior decorators.

 

[Swerd]

Oh Geez!!! So for the pedestrian, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here". Guess that's why it's back to the ears. But still having the perhaps foolish notion that I can at least narrow the choices with a modicum of education, I'll ask another question.

Dennis, the mid & high range of the Phil 3s have 1 driver each.

1) What would happen if you built a speaker with 2 pair, or 3 pair of the same drivers? Benefits? Disadvantages?

2) This pair of mid/high drivers is different in the Slim Tower and the Philharmonitors. Why?

Thanks!

I'm not Dennis, but I'll take a crack at some answers. As usual, if I'm wrong, I trust Dennis will correct me .

1) Disadvantages outweigh any benefits. Where do you mount these multiple drivers? There are good reasons why drivers are arranged vertically. If drivers are side-by-side, interference known as comb filtering (read about it on wikipedia) can occur in the horizontal plane. Vertical arrangements avoid that.

The main reason why multiple drivers are used is to obtain higher loudness, that a single driver might not be able to achieve. We all have seen MTM speakers that use two smaller mid woofers, 5¼" or 6½", that together can play louder bass than a single driver could. The Phil 3, has a potent (and expensive) 8" bass driver that can play loud, low, and clean. If Dennis had selected a less potent bass driver for this model, he might very well have used two of them, but with the 8" driver he uses this isn't needed.

Two mid range or tweeters? Don't go there. There's even less reason to use multiples of those, primarily because most mids and tweeters can play louder than a bass driver. They often have to be quieted by adding resistors to the crossover so their output doesn't play louder than the bass. (Go back a read about comb filtering again.)

2) Different drivers are in the Slim Tower to stay within the lower price that Dennis wanted to achieve. The hard work was finding drivers that cost less, but still sounded good to Dennis when done as a 3-way.

Your questions are good, but the more you ask, the more I think you need to take a road trip to Dennis's house in Bethesda, Maryland. An afternoon there will make a world of difference. It's only a 5 hour drive .

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Yes they do. I'm not directly claiming that they introduce a great amount of colouration. I don't really believe that they do if properly chosen. What they do introduce is losses in the system. And what I really failed to say is that you cannot boost or easily contour with a passive system as you can with an active system. Nor is it easy to setup delays. Yes it is possible. But it is not the same thing as dialing in a delay and taking a measurement on an active system.
[/QUOTE]

I think this is another area where we agree. I expected to be buried in the technological scrap heap years ago. I thought active crossovers would completely take over because they have so many inherent advantages over passives. That hasn't happened yet, but the clock is ticking very loudly.

 

[konajoe]

Hey Herbu!

I'm at the opposite end of the budget spectrum. But my take-away from this thread is that there will be a good probability of speakers not sounding the way they were designed to sound because of your particular room acoustics. I'm in a position where I will not be able to do any acoustic treatments to my listening area, due to WAF. But if I were you, I'd definitely consider having a pro come out to your place and see what they can do as far as treatments. You may see a huge difference with your current equipment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Having More drivers (vs less) is better ONLY if the loudspeaker sounds better. Just like expensive speakers are better only if the speaker sounds better and fits your definition of the perfect speaker.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The problem with the "if it sounds good it is good" philosophy, and the "graphs don't matter" philosophy is coloration.

And will everyone agree to what EXACTLY is "coloration"?

Or is there going to be a difference in opinion?

Why is it a "problem" if the person loves the sound of the speakers?

It's only a problem if the person does NOT love the sound of the speakers.

 

[Swerd]

… But my take-away from this thread is that there will be a good probability of speakers not sounding the way they were designed to sound because of your particular room acoustics…

It's possible that many people overestimate the influence that a room and a speaker's location in a room can have. It's also possible that I'm reading too much from your words. Moving a speaker to a different spot in the room will not make Barry Manilow sound like Frank Sinatra .

If you judge a speaker by it's bass, roughly 250 Hz and lower, room acoustics can have a large effect.

If you judge a speaker by it's mid range, roughly 500 to 4000 Hz, room acoustics can be minimal. As you move a speaker farther away from walls behind or beside it, room acoustics play a smaller and smaller role.

So you can easily get a good impression of a speakers mid range and treble qualities regardless of where you and the speakers are located. But you cannot fairly evaluate bass qualities or the relative balance between bass and mid range unless you are in the same room and in the same locations.

I understand that many people have few options where they can locate their speakers, and often it is near a wall. But it's simple to decide whether the sound you hear is caused by the speaker or it's location. Try moving it closer to or further away from a wall, or try moving your listening location. At least this way you can decide for yourself what the speaker itself can do.

 

[ImcLoud]

I am also going to have to disagree with you there Irv, if the speaker sounds "good" to the end user, thats all there is, I don't care what them graphs say, they can be laser straight form 2hz to 20000 and if I hear them with music I like and they don't sound right, then I won't be a buyer, you know who will be though? All the guys that buy gear because of the name plate, or all the guys that focus on the graphs more than the music... I have heard stories of people who "show off" their systems by pulling out some papers that look like my kids math homework, but for me I would rather pop a disc in and turn the volume up...

I don't even know what colorization is, but I can tell you that to me Epos Elan 15's better than Focal diamonds, and monitor audio silvers sound better than studio 60's, and graphs had nothing to do with it, my ears did the work, I listened to them all and made a decision...

Now if you like that part of the hobby, than great, read the graphs, measure your system every time you listen, but don't let it dilute the point of having a nice stereo system, its to have good sound not a fancy brand, or speaker that measures "well"...

I have other hobbies where I pay great attention to the numbers because they matter, like in long range shooting, I measure and record ballistics for certain rounds {that I make myself}, I record shooting patterns, ect . but that is the point of the hobby, to get better and produce better ammo and firearms... With speakers the purpose is music, unless you are building speakers, they are just a way to deliver the music to your ears...

 

[herbu]

The main reason why multiple drivers are used is to obtain higher loudness, that a single driver might not be able to achieve.

Two mid range or tweeters? Don't go there. There's even less reason to use multiples of those, primarily because most mids and tweeters can play louder than a bass driver. They often have to be quieted by adding resistors to the crossover so their output doesn't play louder than the bass.

Thank you! Now I understand why, as you go more and more expensive in a line of speakers, the most common change is the number/size of the woofers. It is not unusual to see multiple woofers but still a single mid and high driver.

BTW, I'm really enjoying crawling through the 247 pages of this: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/75266-philharmonic-audio-3-way-open-back-ml-tqwts-designed-dennis-murphy-247.html

 

[funky waves]

And will everyone agree to what EXACTLY is "coloration"?

Or is there going to be a difference in opinion?

Why is it a "problem" if the person loves the sound of the speakers?

It's only a problem if the person does NOT love the sound of the speakers.

There is no problem if you are listening "to the speakers" and they make you happy, however if you want to listen "to the music" as it was intended the recorded measurements can show you how faithfully the speakers can reproduce the recording. But you have to know how to read the measurements, and have all the right ones.

 

[Swerd]

Thank you! Now I understand why, as you go more and more expensive in a line of speakers, the most common change is the number/size of the woofers. It is not unusual to see multiple woofers but still a single mid and high driver.

Glad to know something I said was understandable . I tried harder because you're a Tar Heel. I went to UNC, class of 1971.

Many speakers, at reasonable cost, can deliver bass down to about 40 Hz. Fewer can go down to 30 Hz. To get down to 25 Hz or lower will cost big dollars. That's why subwoofers are such a popular option.

Music rarely contains anything below 30 Hz (contrabasson), and that is probably only with pipe organ. See this Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

Movies can go deeper, as they contain synthetic versions of various explosions, computer-graphic dinosaurs, and other simulated apocalypses .

 

[herbu]

I tried harder because you're a Tar Heel. I went to UNC, class of 1971.

Ha!!! Go Heels!!! Have been a fan since the Dean Smith, Rusty Clark, Charlie Scott days!!!
For the benefit of those who don't know, Duke, UNC & NC State are all within 30 minutes of each other. If you live here, it is MANDATORY to pick one, is usually done by kindergarten, and sticks w/ you for life.

 

[Swerd]

Ha!!! Go Heels!!! Have been a fan since the Dean Smith, Rusty Clark, Charlie Scott days!!!
For the benefit of those who don't know, Duke, UNC & NC State are all within 30 minutes of each other. If you live here, it is MANDATORY to pick one, is usually done by kindergarten, and sticks w/ you for life.

UNC better known as Carolina
Duke also known as Puke U
NC State also known as Moo Doo U

Rusty Clark was in my genetics class. He was a 6'11" starting center, who actually was a real college student – he later went to medical school.