Looking for a new amplifier

[little wing]

Hi Folks,

I am looking at possibly replacing my amplifier with a more current model. I would not need a lot of networking capabilities as the Oppo 105 pretty much handles everything. I will use it for about 80% music, and my budget is about 2k. If you could recommend some receivers that will allow me to set individual crossover points for each speaker that would great. Thanks in advance for any recommendations. Just as an fyi, I do plan to upgrade my sub to the SVS SB2000.

 

[ImcLoud]

I wouldn't spend that much...
I like Pioneer, Marantz, and Denon, go through their websites pick the one that has all the options you want then check around for the best price...
DENON AVR-4520CI Denon's Flagship Home Theater Receiver 150wpc | Accessories4less
MARANTZ SR7008 9.2 Network Home Theater Receiver with AirPlay | Accessories4less
MARANTZ SR7005 3D Ready 7.2 Home Theater Networking Receiver | Accessories4less
DENON AVR-3313CI 7.2 Networking Receiver w/AirPlay 3D & 4K Ready | Accessories4less

to me them 4 receivers don't offer much over each other so I would buy the most affordable... I actually would buy the least expensive I could find with preouts.. MARANTZ SR5008 7.2 Network Home Theater Receiver with AirPlay | Accessories4less

 

[little wing]

I wouldn't spend that much...
I like Pioneer, Marantz, and Denon, go through their websites pick the one that has all the options you want then check around for the best price...
DENON AVR-4520CI Denon's Flagship Home Theater Receiver 150wpc | Accessories4less
MARANTZ SR7008 9.2 Network Home Theater Receiver with AirPlay | Accessories4less
MARANTZ SR7005 3D Ready 7.2 Home Theater Networking Receiver | Accessories4less
DENON AVR-3313CI 7.2 Networking Receiver w/AirPlay 3D & 4K Ready | Accessories4less

to me them 4 receivers don't offer much over each other so I would buy the most affordable... I actually would buy the least expensive I could find with preouts.. MARANTZ SR5008 7.2 Network Home Theater Receiver with AirPlay | Accessories4less

Thanks for the reply. My only concern with the SR5008 would be that 100wpc may not be enough power for my speakers. My Yamaha is rated at 130wpc, so I'm not sure I'd want to take a step back in power. But the 7008 might be an option.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would look at the Denon X4000 or upcoming Denon X4100, X5200, X7200. These have Audyssey XT32 + Dual Sub EQ + Dynamic EQ.

You could probably get the X4000 now for about $900 new. Price will drop further once the X4100, X5200, and X7200 hit the stores.

 

[Steve81]

Thanks for the reply. My only concern with the SR5008 would be that 100wpc may not be enough power for my speakers. My Yamaha is rated at 130wpc, so I'm not sure I'd want to take a step back in power.

That's where the preouts come into play; if the output of the SR5008 isn't enough, you've got the option of buying an external amp.

 

[little wing]

That's where the preouts come into play; if the output of the SR5008 isn't enough, you've got the option of buying an external amp.

I gotcha, yes that's definitely an option. Thanks. My thought was, if I could get a receiver with enough power to push my speakers, I wouldn't have to look at adding a separate amp right now. Maybe later when I get those Revel Salons

 

[Steve81]

I gotcha, yes that's definitely an option. Thanks. My thought was, if I could get a receiver with enough power to push my speakers, I wouldn't have to look at adding a separate amp right now. Maybe later when I get those Revel Salons

In that case, I'd also note that all else being equal (in this case, it's probably close enough for government work), the difference between 100W and 130W is...........drum roll please............1.1dB, i.e. barely perceptible.

 

[GIEGAR]

Hi Folks,

I am looking at possibly replacing my amplifier with a more current model. I would not need a lot of networking capabilities as the Oppo 105 pretty much handles everything. I will use it for about 80% music, and my budget is about 2k. If you could recommend some receivers that will allow me to set individual crossover points for each speaker that would great. Thanks in advance for any recommendations. Just as an fyi, I do plan to upgrade my sub to the SVS SB2000.

Thanks for the reply. My only concern with the SR5008 would be that 100wpc may not be enough power for my speakers. My Yamaha is rated at 130wpc, so I'm not sure I'd want to take a step back in power. But the 7008 might be an option.

Given you don't need all of the latest connectivity features and your concerns about ample power, I would recommend this:

DENON AVR-4311CI 9.2 Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less ($1100 plus shipping)

The 4311CI is a very highly regarded older AVR that really hasn't dated a great deal. It runs HDMI 1.4a and packs the top of the line Audyssey XT32 (with SubEQ HT) and true independent sub pre-outs. It's rated at an honest 140Wrms x 2 into 8Ω. The amps are also 4Ω certified, so your choices of other speakers that may be in your future are not limited. Here are the measurements for the prior years Denon model, which had an almost identical amp section:

Denon AVR-4310CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Sound & Vision


Very, very nice main speakers BTW. You could put the balance of your $2K budget towards an Ascend Sierra Horizon (RAAL) for an awesome front end.

Good luck with your search!

 

[PENG]

Given you don't need all of the latest connectivity features and your concerns about ample power, I would recommend this:

DENON AVR-4311CI 9.2 Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less ($1100 plus shipping)

The 4311CI is a very highly regarded older AVR that really hasn't dated a great deal. It runs HDMI 1.4a and packs the top of the line Audyssey XT32 (with SubEQ HT) and true independent sub pre-outs. It's rated at an honest 140Wrms x 2 into 8Ω. The amps are also 4Ω certified, so your choices of other speakers that may be in your future are not limited. Here are the measurements for the prior years Denon model, which had an almost identical amp section:

Agree, I should add that the 4311 is the last Denon AVR model that still decodes HDCD and the first that is rated for 4 ohms speakers.

 

[GIEGAR]

Agree, I should add that the 4311 is the last Denon AVR model that still decodes HDCD and the first that is rated for 4 ohms speakers.

Thanks for the tip on the HDCD decoding; I didn't know that.

PENG, I'm curious as to what you mean by: the first that is rated for 4 ohms speakers. Are you saying that previous Denons towards the top of the lineup (like say the 4810CI) where not rated for 4Ω speakers? Or are you saying it's the first in the xx11 model lineup rated for 4Ω speakers?

Another thing about the 4311CI that's attractive to me (and perhaps the OP) is that, even though there's many thousands of them in service, I've never read about reliability problems or premature failures with them. They seem to be solid as rock. I can't point to any hard data for this, it's just a perception of mine, so take it FWIW etc.

 

[little wing]

Given you don't need all of the latest connectivity features and your concerns about ample power, I would recommend this:

DENON AVR-4311CI 9.2 Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less ($1100 plus shipping)

The 4311CI is a very highly regarded older AVR that really hasn't dated a great deal. It runs HDMI 1.4a and packs the top of the line Audyssey XT32 (with SubEQ HT) and true independent sub pre-outs. It's rated at an honest 140Wrms x 2 into 8Ω. The amps are also 4Ω certified, so your choices of other speakers that may be in your future are not limited. Here are the measurements for the prior years Denon model, which had an almost identical amp section:

Denon AVR-4310CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Sound & Vision


Very, very nice main speakers BTW. You could put the balance of your $2K budget towards an Ascend Sierra Horizon (RAAL) for an awesome front end.

Good luck with your search!

Geigar - Thanks for your suggestion. I'm taking a look at that amp. It may be the one. And yes, I do have my eye on the Horizon center channel. The Ascend towers are fine speakers, I have had them for about 3 months now, and I'm really enjoying them, but I know the matching center will set them off!

 

[little wing]

In that case, I'd also note that all else being equal (in this case, it's probably close enough for government work), the difference between 100W and 130W is...........drum roll please............1.1dB, i.e. barely perceptible.

Steve - Forgive my ignorance, when you say the difference is about 1.1db, are you referring to loudness? Does more power equate to better dynamics?

I may jam out to some of my favorite recordings once in a while, but I don't often play music extremely loud. The most volume I give my speakers doesn't go much past -20.0db, if that.

 

[Steve81]

Steve - Forgive my ignorance, when you say the difference is about 1.1db, are you referring to loudness?

Correct.

Does more power equate to better dynamics?

Depends on what you're asking. Clearly a 500W amp has much more dynamic capability than a 5W amp. OTOH, if you're not even pushing the 5W amp to its limits (playing elevator music at low levels for example), then no.

 

[GIEGAR]

Steve - Forgive my ignorance, when you say the difference is about 1.1db, are you referring to loudness? Does more power equate to better dynamics?

Just to expand on that a bit... In general terms a decibel is simply the difference between two values expressed as a logarithm. In this case it's the difference between two power values expressed as dBSPL (sound pressure level). The formula is: dB = 10 * Log (Pout / Pin). It's way easier to use this calculator though:

dB Power Ratio Calculator

More power can equate to better dynamics if your listening habits/loudness preferences call for more power output than a particular amp can deliver. However, if a 50W amp has enough power to accurately track the program peaks (ie. not clipping) at a given volume level, it won't display any different dynamic behaviour to a 500W amp that's accurately tracking program peaks.

I may jam out to some of my favorite recordings once in a while, but I don't often play music extremely loud. The most volume I give my speakers doesn't go much past -20.0db, if that.

That's good information. If your Yamaha's volume is correctly calibrated to film (SMPTE/Dolby/THX etc.) reference level by YPAO, a -20dBMV (master volume) setting equates to theoretical program peaks of about 85dBSPL at the main listening position for each satellite channel. At a generous listening distance of say 4m (about 13ft) there'll be about 6 to 8dBSPL (or 3 to 4dBSPL for each doubling of distance) attenuation with distance in a typical domestic room... lets call it 8dBSPL. So the speakers will need to be producing 85 + 8 = 93dBSPL peaks at 1m distance.

Now, your Ascend Sierra Towers/Centre (RAAL) are an honestly rated 90dB/1W/1m sensitivity, so on average only 3dB of gain is required from the amps to produce those 93dBSPL peaks. You know where this is going right? Doubling of power produces a 3dB gain, so you'll be calling on the amps to produce 2W bursts per channel for program peaks (and fractions of a watt at the average program level) to power the Sierras at your preferred maximum volume level.

If occasionally you want to really sink the slipper into it and go to -10dBMV, 10 times the power will be required or 20W bursts for program peaks. Of course, this is still well within the capabilities of an AVR with a continuous power rating of 100W. This especially true when you consider that, in the majority cases, the power hungry lower octaves are being bass managed to be handled by a sub or two.

In light of your listening habits, I would be inclined to just shoot for the most keenly priced AVR with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT you can find, and treat the rated power that comes along with that as a nice bonus. At the moment, a new (soon to be superseded) Denon AVR-X4000CI would appear to be the sweet spot.

 

[markw]

To put it simply, that difference in watts (or decibles) isn't audiable under normal listenng conditions in the average room. It's kinda like sweating the difference between 119 mph and 120 mph when you never drive above 65 mph.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To put it simply, that difference in watts (or decibles) isn't audiable under normal listenng conditions in the average room. It's kinda like sweating the difference between 119 mph and 120 mph when you never drive above 65 mph.

LOL.

Agree. Of course, just like in audio, I'm sure some people will still argue that the car with the higher top speed somehow drives "faster" even at 30MPH.

It's like somehow a 2KW amp will still sound better than a 100W amp even if you are only using 10W.

 

[Irvrobinson]

LOL.

Agree. Of course, just like in audio, I'm sure some people will still argue that the car with the higher top speed somehow drives better even at 30MPH.

It's like somehow a 2KW amp will still sound better than a 100W amp even if you are only using 10W.

This isn't a good comparison. Cars are mechanical devices that vary widely in speed-independent factors such as handling, steering feel, braking, and tactile communication that can be felt at 30 mph. There is huge, immediate, easily identifiable difference between a Corvette at 30 mph and a Prius at 30 mph. Yeah, a Corvette does drive better at 30 mph. Well-designed amplifiers, at best, or worst I suppose, vary by such subtle amounts below clipping that differentiating between them can be difficult.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This isn't a good comparison. Cars are mechanical devices that vary widely in speed-independent factors such as handling, steering feel, braking, and tactile communication that can be felt at 30 mph. There is huge, immediate, easily identifiable difference between a Corvette at 30 mph and a Prius at 30 mph. Yeah, a Corvette does drive better at 30 mph. Well-designed amplifiers, at best, or worst I suppose, vary by such subtle amounts below clipping that differentiating between them can be difficult.

I think we are just talking about velocity. 30 mph = 30 mph.

I should have been more specific when I said "drives better", which means quality.

 

[little wing]

Just to expand on that a bit... In general terms a decibel is simply the difference between two values expressed as a logarithm. In this case it's the difference between two power values expressed as dBSPL (sound pressure level). The formula is: dB = 10 * Log (Pout / Pin). It's way easier to use this calculator though:

dB Power Ratio Calculator

More power can equate to better dynamics if your listening habits/loudness preferences call for more power output than a particular amp can deliver. However, if a 50W amp has enough power to accurately track the program peaks (ie. not clipping) at a given volume level, it won't display any different dynamic behaviour to a 500W amp that's accurately tracking program peaks.




That's good information. If your Yamaha's volume is correctly calibrated to film (SMPTE/Dolby/THX etc.) reference level by YPAO, a -20dBMV (master volume) setting equates to theoretical program peaks of about 85dBSPL at the main listening position for each satellite channel. At a generous listening distance of say 4m (about 13ft) there'll be about 6 to 8dBSPL (or 3 to 4dBSPL for each doubling of distance) attenuation with distance in a typical domestic room... lets call it 8dBSPL. So the speakers will need to be producing 85 + 8 = 93dBSPL peaks at 1m distance.

Now, your Ascend Sierra Towers/Centre (RAAL) are an honestly rated 90dB/1W/1m sensitivity, so on average only 3dB of gain is required from the amps to produce those 93dBSPL peaks. You know where this is going right? Doubling of power produces a 3dB gain, so you'll be calling on the amps to produce 2W bursts per channel for program peaks (and fractions of a watt at the average program level) to power the Sierras at your preferred maximum volume level.

If occasionally you want to really sink the slipper into it and go to -10dBMV, 10 times the power will be required or 20W bursts for program peaks. Of course, this is still well within the capabilities of an AVR with a continuous power rating of 100W. This especially true when you consider that, in the majority cases, the power hungry lower octaves are being bass managed to be handled by a sub or two.

In light of your listening habits, I would be inclined to just shoot for the most keenly priced AVR with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and SubEQ HT you can find, and treat the rated power that comes along with that as a nice bonus. At the moment, a new (soon to be superseded) Denon AVR-X4000CI would appear to be the sweet spot.

thank you so much for this breakdown. It kind of puts it into perspective. One reason I choose the Ascend towers was because they are not an extremely difficult load to drive. Honestly the power of my RxV2500 seems like enough to give the speakers a nice dynamic, balanced, and detailed sound. the Yamaha is a little dated, so I wanted to bring my system up to date a bit. One thing is, I do use the multichannel out puts of my Oppo 105, so I didn't really want to give that up choosing a new receiver. But there are some pretty intriguing arguments here to go with a lower priced receiver and add an amp. As I said before my main concern is dynamics and punch even at low volumes. But when I want to go full tilt with with Voodoo Child, or any of my other favorites, I want to close my eyes and be there.

 

[little wing]

Ok, on the car stuff, I had a job in the LA area in April, and decided to stay over the weekend, since I live in Philly and it's a long trip out there. I rented a 911 with my Hertz points. OMG!! what a difference between a car like and something else! I will most likely only be able to afford the something else, in my lifetime, but what an experience!! I had my heart in my throat a few times!