confused about cables

[william13]

I am new here and forgive me if I am being to bold. I have a pretty good stereo system but my cables are ugly generic and I wanted to buy solid, well constructed cables to match the quality of my systems. I have read all the articles and watched the videos saying that unless you have substandard cables or bad connectors it shouldn't matter much. I have read a few articles saying cables matter. I took electrical engineering classes in college so I am not completely unknowledgable about electrical science. Yet at the same time I have tons of friends on various forums who swear their system is improved significantly with very expensive cables. I am looking for an explanation for this electrical- psycho-phenomena. The friends I am referring to are not neurotic or crazy. They are stand up people. If it was a placebo effect I would have imagined it would have worn off but they continue to experience "these improvements". How do we explain all the "believers"

 

[jinjuku]

You don't.

The basics are that people can come by their experience honestly or not honestly. Honestly is going ahead and purchasing the cables and having someone swap them out for you randomly so You have the experience you need.

It is for certain that companies can purposefully make something SOUND different and then market that difference.

 

[ImcLoud]

Welcome to the forum..

There is an ah article and video around here that digs into this a bit...

But if you have properly sized, copper cables, in good condition {say any generic $20 for $100ft 12ga copper stranded wire} they will sound just like a $20K wire..

Now that being said, if you have a nice stereo system and the wires are visible, there is nothing wrong with buying or building a nice set of cables...
I have a couple sets of the Choseal cables, and they are fairly priced and look very expensive, very well made, and sound just like other cables... they have them priced from $40-$150 a pair...
Cascade Accessories Choseal LB5110 Premium Speaker Cable Free Tech Bag | eBay
New Choseal Banana Plug 8 2ft OCC 6N Speaker Loudspeaker Audio Cable 2 5M OD19 | eBay

they sell av cables, power cables, toslink, ect also... Choseal HiFi Auido Line AV Cable 2RCA to 2RCA OCC 6N Single Crystal Copper Black | eBay from cheap to $1-- each...
As long as you dont expect a night and day sound difference or them to fix something wrong with your current sound you will be a happy customer, you are buy them for aesthetics and presentation. BUT if you buy them because you think they are going to open up your sound stage or tame your troublesome horn tweeters then the only way you will be happy is if you fall for the placebo and fool yourself... Either way its only money and its yours so "buy and be happy.."

I have one set of each of them and I can tell you they are a heck of a cable, really thick, heavy, and well put together... There are other companies out there too, plus you can always make them yourself...

 

[j_garcia]

More than you ever wanted to know about wire and how it influences your system: Speaker Wire

Bottom line is: proper AWG for the load and run length and it will be fine. I've tried plenty of different wires; price, AWG, different styles of wire (braided, solid, silver, etc...), wires with "boxes" attached to them, etc... The end result is, there was very little difference to my ears. Was there a difference? Yes. Was it enough to spend any more time and money on? Nope. I'm satisfied with my conclusion and have determined that as long as you follow the AWG rules outlined on Roger Russel's page, wire has the least influence of anything in the system. Altering the placement of your speakers by a few inches or +/-5 degrees will have a larger impact.

 

[slipperybidness]

Yes, the people that say "cables are night and day" are making bad decisions based on something other than sound quality. Absolutely, 100%, they are fooling themselves.

If you want the best quality that you could ever need, for a fair price (though not exactly cheap), then Blue Jeans Cable is the way to go.

 

[william13]

Yes, the people that say "cables are night and day" are making bad decisions based on something other than sound quality. Absolutely, 100%, they are fooling themselves.

If you want the best quality that you could ever need, for a fair price (though not exactly cheap), then Blue Jeans Cable is the way to go.

I mean I can tell you that on one web site over "90%" of approx 400 people said " substantial improvement" To me thats a phenomena worthy of a scientific article to be written about it in some sought of journal.

 

[j_garcia]

"Believers" are easy to make and the brain is easy to fool.

After This Audio Illusion, You'll Never Trust Your Ears Again

 

[william13]

In terms of construction I did think Blue Jeans seemed well constructed. KK 8TC did also. Another cable that looked well constructed (notice I am not saying anything about the sound) was this cable called "Daves Cable". But in that regard it is not beyond me to be a DIY person as I love using my hands and killing time after work. It is hard for me not to take a bite of that expensive cable pie but I am going to resist it because I do believe the brain is foolable. After all how many people want to tell their spouses that they just made a real bad decision.

 

[markw]

I mean I can tell you that on one web site over "90%" of approx 400 people said " substantial improvement" To me thats a phenomena worthy of a scientific article to be written about it in some sought of journal.

Then it would behoove the manufacturer to so a scientific study to back that up, no? Think of the sales rush that would ensue when their boast is scientificaly proven.

This should be easy since all claims are based in science, no? And, an impartial listening test can be arranged according to scientific principles if the manufacturer is really feeling that froggy.

It looks to me like you expect us to be able to prove or disprove what others claim to hear and believe. Sorry, it' up to you to listen and decide. Or, you can take them at their word.

Can anyone prove or disprove their religion? That's based purely on belief and faith which is up to an individual.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Welcome is in order

... I have read a few articles saying cables matter.

Well, yes it matters. Try to eliminate it.
If you look around on the net, people will swear by psychics, homeopathic, etc, an endless list.

... Yet at the same time I have tons of friends on various forums who swear their system is improved significantly with very expensive cables.

I am sure you have them and that they do believe this.
Ask your friends if they attempted to do the evaluation under bias controlled testing protocols? Like double blind testing. Stand by for all the excuses why they don.t have to, they know what they hear, etc.

...I am looking for an explanation for this electrical- psycho-phenomena.

Just simple human psychology of bias. Hopefully you have read about how testing is painstakingly controlled to minimize bias and coming to credible conclusions with the outcome.

The friends I am referring to are not neurotic or crazy. They are stand up people. If it was a placebo effect I would have imagined it would have worn off but they continue to experience "these improvements". How do we explain all the "believers"

Bias is not eliminated. Placebo effect just doesn't go away. You may want to read up on testing using human subjects. How the brain is fooled all the time. We don't control this consciously as it is down in the subconscious.
There is a whole discipline dealing with this.

...I mean I can tell you that on one web site over "90%" of approx 400 people said " substantial improvement" To me thats a phenomena worthy of a scientific article to be written about it in some sought of journal.

Would this site be Audio Asylum? The web site you visited is populated by believers, of course. They ask no questions, just believe.

If cable appearance is important to you, look around and buy that appearance that you can afford.

 

[jinjuku]

I mean I can tell you that on one web site over "90%" of approx 400 people said " substantial improvement" To me thats a phenomena worthy of a scientific article to be written about it in some sought of journal.

Here is a really great thread about a majority of people that believe in cable burn in. You will see how quickly I cleaved a mass of people from their belief with about $10 in parts.

Bob Lee, lead application engineer, at QSC Audio likened me to Copernicus walking through an astrologers convention in this thread.

Don't trust the audiophile what is scared shirtless by the proverbial blindfold. If they can't trust their ears neither should you.

 

[ImcLoud]

In terms of construction I did think Blue Jeans seemed well constructed. KK 8TC did also. Another cable that looked well constructed (notice I am not saying anything about the sound) was this cable called "Daves Cable". But in that regard it is not beyond me to be a DIY person as I love using my hands and killing time after work. It is hard for me not to take a bite of that expensive cable pie but I am going to resist it because I do believe the brain is foolable. After all how many people want to tell their spouses that they just made a real bad decision.

If you want to do an inexpensive set of diy cables, its not hard to do, I have tons of them all different colors...

start buy picking a color of tech flex you like... Rattle snake is nice, 3/8 is a good size for speaker cables.. 3 8 Braided Expandable Sleeving Rattlesnake Techflex 25ft | eBay
then pick a cable 12ga is good for anything i ever did Amazon.com: Karma Kable 50' Twisted 12 Gauge Speaker Wire: Electronics if you want flat cable xscorpion sells it but you need to buy 100ft rools
next a set of ends I have had good luck with these Amazon.com: Deadbolt Banana Plugs, 12-pair, By Sewell Direct: Electronics or these Amazon.com: Sewell Silverback Banana Plugs, 24k Gold Dual Screw Lock Speaker Connector, 12 Pairs: Electronics
then get some pants Amazon.com: Speaker Wire Pants - 10 Gauge (Y Boot) -10 Pack: Electronics I use these with the karma cable...
shrink tubing is helpfull too Amazon.com: Anytime Tools 127 pc Heat Shrink Wire Wrap Cable Sleeve Tubing Sets Assorted Size e/Case: Home Improvement

the process is very simple, cut the cable to the length you want {add 4"s}, cut the techflex around 12" shorter than you cut the cable, feed the wire into the techflex, shrink wrap the ends evenly, strip back the cable sheath, feed the cable through the pants, screw on the bananas and your done...

 

[william13]

Then it would behoove the manufacturer to so a scientific study to back that up, no? Think of the sales rush that would ensue when their boast is scientificaly proven.

This should be easy since all claims are based in science, no? And, an impartial listening test can be arranged according to scientific principles if the manufacturer is really feeling that froggy.

It looks to me like you expect us to be able to prove or disprove what others claim to hear and believe. Sorry, it' up to you to listen and decide. Or, you can take them at their word.

Can anyone prove or disprove their religion? That's based purely on belief and faith which is up to an individual.

"It looks to me like you expect us to be able to prove or disprove what others claim to hear and believe."

There may be some scientific study out there that I did not find that sheds light on the subject and if "us" knows about it .....then yes I would expect it to be shared.

"Can anyone prove or disprove their religion? That's based purely on belief and faith which is up to an individual."

Gosh! I don't expect anyone can prove or disprove their religion but I think acoustics is something measurable. But I get your point otherwise.

 

[william13]

Thank you jinjuku and ImcLoud and J-garcia and slipperybidness

Bill

 

[william13]

Welcome is in order

Well, yes it matters. Try to eliminate it.
If you look around on the net, people will swear by psychics, homeopathic, etc, an endless list.




I am sure you have them and that they do believe this.
Ask your friends if they attempted to do the evaluation under bias controlled testing protocols? Like double blind testing. Stand by for all the excuses why they don.t have to, they know what they hear, etc.



Just simple human psychology of bias. Hopefully you have read about how testing is painstakingly controlled to minimize bias and coming to credible conclusions with the outcome.


Bias is not eliminated. Placebo effect just doesn't go away. You may want to read up on testing using human subjects. How the brain is fooled all the time. We don't control this consciously as it is down in the subconscious.
There is a whole discipline dealing with this.


Would this site be Audio Asylum? The web site you visited is populated by believers, of course. They ask no questions, just believe.

If cable appearance is important to you, look around and buy that appearance that you can afford.

Thank you for such a comprehensive response

 

[agarwalro]

Here is a really great thread about a majority of people that believe in cable burn in. You will see how quickly I cleaved a mass of people from their belief with about $10 in parts.

I wanted to stop reading after a few posts, yet, the train wreck was serving the best popcorn I've seen in a while. Then you came along and things got epic, SERIOUSLY EPIC.

DK's review of the "cable cooker" is a good sequel. Not as good as the first, but a train wreck of pseudo science none the less, http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?92655-Home-Cookin-The-Audiodharma-Cable-Cooker

 

[jinjuku]

I wanted to stop reading after a few posts, yet, the train wreck was serving the best popcorn I've seen in a while. Then you came along and things got epic, SERIOUSLY EPIC.

There is nothing quite like taking all their concerns about the stress that discrimination type testing supposedly introduces and then for $10 in parts ramming it down their throat by mitigating every single concern:

1. Blinded testing? Cables are in FULL view. They will know which cables they are currently using.
2. Short term/Long term (what ever the proponent cites as problematic) usage. You have 30 days. You can leave them in for as short or long as you like.

I knew after that my days there where numbered. You can't expose an entire community for the fools they are and not expect a witch hunt. That thread is certainly the gift that keeps on giving. My entire purpose in that thread is for when someone like our own OP sees all these people talking about this and that cable and the fact they have zero faith in their abilities.

 

[ImcLoud]

As some of you know its a hobby of mine to visit high end audio shops all over the country. If I go somewhere I haven't been I google search audio shops for that area and visit any that look interesting... I have listened to so much equipment I couldn't begin to make a list, my wife comes with me often and also listens {she says all speakers sound the same, lol} and she jokes with me about maggies all the time, I have listened to 3.7's in at least 5 states, lol... She always asks, "do they sell maggies here" but they sound different everytime...
ANYWAY - As most of you will also know these places are normally small storefronts with a few listening rooms {there are some large ones still around but for the most part they are just storefronts with a few room setup}... One thing is the same in all these places, they have a wall of wires, and a book of different cables for sale... I have spent enough time in these places to see them work, they sell some poor unexpecting guy a nice set of PSB towers, with an overpriced integrated amp and cd player then they walk over and just grab some wires off the wall like its just the normal practice and these go with that setup, like you were buying a pair of shoes and these are the laces that fit them.... I look over at the wall and the wires are $550 a set, $200 for rca cables, and then he asks this poor schlub what he wants for "power management", where he shows him the fancy powerstrips for $200 or the stackable power unit for $1000, then shows him the power cables for $200, by the time this poor prick leaves the shop he spent $8500 on speakers, cd player, and an amp and then this salesman gets him for another $1000-$1500 for wires that could have cost him $50...

NOW fast forward a week, this guy loves his system, which is awesome, he shows his friends and family, they all love it, then he comes online to a forum {like the one linked above} and knows his wires are the reason his system sounds so good, so you try to tell him, "no, $50 of cables will do the same thing" he can't believe you because that would mean the nice salesman that gave him a cup of coffee and danish bent him over the pamphlet covered counter and he hadn't a clue...

I walked into a place in NY called audiobreakthroughs, nice store {first place I ever heard the focal 1008's, awesome} and afer playing my demo cd through a few sets of speakers, the salesman asked if I wanted to try a different amp {it was a simple MF cd-dac-ss amp setup} so I said, nah all the amps sound the same to me with the exception of tubes... He was mortified.... He had to show me the bryston amp with van hull wires powering a set of martins they had, and he did, I listened and I said OK now switch back the m1's and he did and there was no difference, he went back and forth and I couldnt hear a lick of difference, I wish I had a topping tp60 with me because it would have sounded the same...

We had a little conversation about wires and he obviously was trying to sell me on "wires make a world of difference" when I looked at him and said "c'mon, don't insult me and tell me you actually belive that?" he smiled and said, "OK, the wires are bull **** but the electronics DO make a big difference" I told him he was a lost cause.. I ended up buying a used set of sonus faber concerto bookshelfs in great shape with the original boxes for $369 or something like that.. They sounded good in the store I got them home and I was already sick of them, sold them on ebay for over $600 lol...

But anyway, all this stuff stems from somewhere, and its the money... all about money.. GE doesn't charge $20K for a cable to an xray machine and you think your amp needs one....lol... Nasa probably didn't spend 20K for 3 ft of cable anywhere in the Endeavor orbitor, lol... I know we are only talking about $500 or so cables, but its just not going to make your speakers sound better than a $50 cable...

 

[agarwalro]

There is nothing quite like taking all their concerns about the stress that discrimination type testing supposedly introduces and then for $10 in parts ramming it down their throat by mitigating every single concern:

1. Blinded testing? Cables are in FULL view. They will know which cables they are currently using.
2. Short term/Long term (what ever the proponent cites as problematic) usage. You have 30 days. You can leave them in for as short or long as you like.

I knew after that my days there where numbered. You can't expose an entire community for the fools they are and not expect a witch hunt. That thread is certainly the gift that keeps on giving. My entire purpose in that thread is for when someone like our own OP sees all these people talking about this and that cable and the fact they have zero faith in their abilities.

Man it was frustrating and hilarious at the same time to see you trying desperately to have a logical conversation.

Person x: Belden is beneath my dignity
You: At what $ amount does burn in become detectable
Person y: Your audio equipment is not sensitive enough
You: Test it in your system
Person z: FU!
You: Test it in your system
Person x: You will cheat and lie

Oh God! it went on and on and on. LOL! It was so bad that it was good and I could not stop.

knows his wires are the reason his system sounds so good, so you try to tell him, "no, $50 of cables will do the same thing" he can't believe you because that would mean the nice salesman that gave him a cup of coffee and danish bent him over the pamphlet covered counter and he hadn't a clue...

HAHAHAHA! Nice one!

But anyway, all this stuff stems from somewhere, and its the money... all about money.. GE doesn't charge $20K for a cable to an xray machine and you think your amp needs one....lol... Nasa probably didn't spend 20K for 3 ft of cable anywhere in the Endeavor orbitor, lol... I know we are only talking about $500 or so cables, but its just not going to make your speakers sound better than a $50 cable...

That is exactly my reasoning. Ifsomething makes that much of a difference (improvement) to electrical properties of cables, super sensitive or cutting edge medicine/physics/space/technology/defense applications would be all over stuff like this. It would not be known of only in niche audio circles and detected by golden ears.