A good AV receiver to go with B&W 686 S2?

[vedranius]

Hi all!

My friend is buying B&W 686 S2 speakers.

And he wants to buy some AV receiver for them, any recommendations for around 500-700$?

As for example, he can right now buy some of these:

- Denon AVR-X1000
- Marantz NR1504
- HARMAN KARDON AVR 165
- ONKYO TX-NR525
- ONKYO TX-SR313

Or would you recommend something else in that price range?

Also, what cables and what stand arrangement would you suggest for small room 6x4m?
And would you recommend him to buy B&W stands for 686S2 speakers or? And does he needs a foam under the speakers or that's not needed? And would you rather recommend him to buy 685 S2 with some cheaper AV receiver as for example Denon AVR-X500?

As I always say, what makes a good sound is a quality made receiver, not awesome and expensive speakers.

Many thanks

[ADMIN] Edited to add relevant topic info:
Although the receivers mentioned in this thread are not current models, much of the advice still applies to new receivers. For up-to-date recommendations, take a look at our receiver comparison articles, which we update every year.

In general, receivers around the $500 price-point will have similar build quality and feature sets. It's not until you get into the higher-end receivers that you start seeing bigger differences in amplifier power, build quality, etc. Additionally, properly setting up your receiver is far more critical to ensuring great sound than buying a nice receiver. Our AV Receiver Set Up Guide will help you get everything dialed in.

 

[Swerd]

My friend is buying B&W 686 S2 speakers.

And he wants to buy some AV receiver for them, any recommendations for around 500-700$?

As for example, he can right now buy some of these:

- Denon AVR-X1000
- Marantz NR1504
- HARMAN KARDON AVR 165
- ONKYO TX-NR525
- ONKYO TX-SR313

Or would you recommend something else in that price range?

Welcome to Audioholics!

The 686 is a compact speaker, with 8 ohm impedance, and with 85 dB sensitivity (measured at 1 m distance with a 1 watt signal). 686 | 600 Series | Bowers & Wilkins

B&W recommends power from 25 to 100 watts. This speaker does not seem difficult to drive, but I think it would benefit from 100 watts or even greater. I haven't looked up those receivers, but any of them that deliver 100-125 watts per channel should do well.

Despite what the B&W dealer may have told your friend, cables do not make a noticeable difference in sound. Any 14 or 12 gauge copper wire zip cord will do well.

Speaker stands must raise the speaker to the proper height, approximately face level while the listener is seated. They must also be sturdy enough to avoid wobbling or vibrating. There are many products available that can do that. Rubber feet under the speaker cabinets, a slab of foam, or even a magazine, can help block vibrations between the speaker cabinet and the stand. But that may not be necessary.

A room of 6×4 m (about 19×13 feet) is not too small. Try arranging the speakers so they are 2.5 to 3 m apart and 0.5 to 1 m away from walls to the side or to the rear. As a guess, one should sit at least 2.5 to 3 m distant from the speakers while listening. These are general guidelines, and the details of the room plus personal preference play a large role in speaker placement.

As I always say, what makes a good sound is a quality made receiver, not awesome and expensive speakers.

You may find many that disagree with that . Any receiver or amp that provides enough power to drive the speakers to adequate loudness levels will do well. Of course, what loudness level is adequate varies greatly among individuals. The variations of sound quality among speakers, especially in different price ranges, can, however, make for large differences in sound quality.

 

[vedranius]

Thank you for your reply! I'll let him know this stuff

Also, we will go tomorrow to test out Yamaha RX-477 and Dali Zensor 3 and Zensor 5 just to see that combination too.

EDIT - question: So actually Marantz 1504 wouldn't be that powerful with it's 50W? Denon AVR-X1000 would be a better option then? Or?

 

[Swerd]

So actually Marantz 1504 wouldn't be that powerful with it's 50W? Denon AVR-X1000 would be a better option then? Or?

I would choose the most power available from the receiver's amp section within a given price range. Will your friend's system involve only the 2 speakers? Or will there be 5 speakers? If only 2 speakers, I think the Denon X1000 would be adequate. Five speakers in a surround system would justify the more costly $700 Denon AVR-X2000.

Denon and Marantz are owned by the same holding company, and both have a good reputation for quality and reliability. In my opinion (limited by personal experience), Yamaha and Harmon Kardon are as good as Denon or Marantz. I would rate Onkyo lower because, in the past, they have had some reliability problems. But there are many happy Onkyo owners.

 

[zieglj01]

The Denon X2000 is $400 here
Amazon.com: Denon AVR-X2000 7.1 Channel Integrated Network AV Receiver with AirPlay (Discontinued by Manufacturer): Electronics

 

[vedranius]

The Denon X2000 is $400 here

Its $500 in our local shop...

I would choose the most power available from the receiver's amp section within a given price range. Will your friend's system involve only the 2 speakers? Or will there be 5 speakers? If only 2 speakers, I think the Denon X1000 would be adequate. Five speakers in a surround system would justify the more costly $700 Denon AVR-X2000.

Denon and Marantz are owned by the same holding company, and both have a good reputation for quality and reliability. In my opinion (limited by personal experience), Yamaha and Harmon Kardon are as good as Denon or Marantz. I would rate Onkyo lower because, in the past, they have had some reliability problems. But there are many happy Onkyo owners.

Hm, as my friend would like to upgrade his setup to 5.1 in future.
So, can you describe me what this mean at Marantz spec sheet: 8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08%, 2ch Drive at 50W
I'm confused by 2ch drive as they say in spec 85W 5ch, but does that only stands for 6 ohm speakers?
And what would actually happen if he connects 5 8 ohm speakers to that Marantz 1504? The whole power would be lower per every channel? Or?

Thanks!

 

[Swerd]

Its $500 in our local shop...

Hm, as my friend would like to upgrade his setup to 5.1 in future.

Then he should buy a 5 or 7 channel AVR now. If you can get the Denon AVR X2000 for $500 (are you in Canada?) that is a decent price. If you're in the USA, I'd order it from Amazon for $400 (shipping will raise the cost). They are a reputable company.

So, can you describe me what this mean at Marantz spec sheet: 8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08%, 2ch Drive at 50W
I'm confused by 2ch drive as they say in spec 85W 5ch, but does that only stands for 6 ohm speakers?

Under US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) rules, amplifier power must be stated when driving two 8 ohm speakers, over the full audio range of 20 Hz – 20 kHz, at a specified level of distortion such as 0.08% (anything lower than 1% is good and lower than 0.1% is excellent).

Under those conditions the Marantz NR1504 can deliver 50 watts per channel. And under the same conditions, the Denon AVR-X2000 is rated at 95 watt per channel. Their language is a bit squishy whether they mean 2 channels or all channels, but the FTC rules clearly say when 2 channels are driven. That Denon is nearly twice as powerful as the Marantz.

When you compare the power from different receivers, compare only that value. Sometimes it may be called the FTC power level or the RMS power level. Ignore all other power levels, as they are much more optimistic.

And what would actually happens if he connects 5 8 ohm speakers to that Marantz 1504? The whole power would be lower per every channel?

Yes, the power would be lower when more than 2 speakers are driven. But we don't know how much lower because they may have estimated it from the FTC power level which was actually measured.

 

[vedranius]

Then he should buy a 5 or 7 channel AVR now. If you can get the Denon AVR X2000 for $500 (are you in Canada?) that is a decent price. If you're in the USA, I'd order it from Amazon for $400 (shipping will raise the cost). They are a reputable company.

Under US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) rules, amplifier power must be stated when driving two 8 ohm speakers, over the full audio range of 20 Hz – 20 kHz, at a specified level of distortion such as 0.08% (anything lower than 1% is good and lower than 0.1% is excellent).

Under those conditions the Marantz NR1504 can deliver 50 watts per channel. And under the same conditions, the Denon AVR-X2000 is rated at 95 watt per channel. Their language is a bit squishy whether they mean 2 channels or all channels, but the FTC rules clearly say when 2 channels are driven. That Denon is nearly twice as powerful as the Marantz.

When you compare the power from different receivers, compare only that value. Sometimes it may be called the FTC power level or the RMS power level. Ignore all other power levels, as they are much more optimistic.

Yes, the power would be lower when more than 2 speakers are driven. But we don't know how much lower because they may have estimated it from the FTC power level which was actually measured.

Thank you for your reply.
We are from Europe, in Croatia, and we don't have Amazon here. And if we would order from amazon.co.uk or .de it would cost the same as buying them here, and also the problem is the warranty and other stuff... So ye, it's complicated
That's why I'm asking all of these questions as I don't want my friend to buy bad stuff hehe

And can you tell me are Zensor's 3 better then 686 S2, I know that this wording ("better") isn't OK to ask about speakers, but some comparison between them would be nice
Thanks!

 

[Swerd]

Thank you for your reply.
We are from Europe, in Croatia, and we don't have Amazon here. And if we would order from amazon.co.uk or .de it would cost the same as buying them here, and also the problem is the warranty and other stuff... So ye, it's complicated
That's why I'm asking all of these questions as I don't want my friend to buy bad stuff hehe

And can you tell me are Zensor's 3 better then 686 S2, I know that this wording ("better") isn't OK to ask about speakers, but some comparison between them would be nice
Thanks!

You're welcome.

Speakers can sound very different. And people have different preferences. Listen to them and see what you or your friend prefer. I haven't heard the Zensors, and even if I have, I can only tell you what I like. Your friend is buying new speakers, not me .

We have a regular AH member here who is from Croatia. Where's Alex1205?

Edit: That name should be Alex2507

 

[Alex2507]

Oh wow ... now there's 2 of us. Alex1205 reporting for duty. I hadn't actually announced where I was from and BSA only spelled it out once. I'll get back to this but be certain that Swerd and many other members here at AH agree that speakers determine what a system will sound like. You need an appropriate amplifier to power them but understand that the difference between a 50 watt amp and a 100 watt amp is only 3 decibels. To go 3 decibels louder than a 100 watt amp you need 200 watts. So the priority is the speakers.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[vedranius]

Oh wow ... now there's 2 of us. Alex1205 reporting for duty. I hadn't actually announced where I was from and BSA only spelled it out once. I'll get back to this but be certain that Swerd and many other members here at AH agree that speakers determine what a system will sound like. You need an appropriate amplifier to power them but understand that the difference between a 50 watt amp and a 100 watt amp is only 3 decibels. To go 3 decibels louder than a 100 watt amp you need 200 watts. So the priority is the speakers.

Welcome to the forum.

Hehe, glad to hear that
Yes, I was thinking the same about the wattage as he is also living in skyscraper with thin walls and so, and I don't think he would even use a half of the power of his setup...
Thanks alex!

 

[Alex2507]

Real quick I'll say that out of the choices you mentioned earlier I'd be looking at the Denon or possibly Marantz options. It'll take me a day or two to find out where to buy stuff in Zagreb.

 

[Alex2507]

is there any specific reason for not recommeding Yamaha, Sony or even Pioneer?

Sony is the only one I would stay away from except for their top of the line stuff. I think they call it the ES series or something like that. Even then I would avoid Sony because it's too expensive for me.

I have a couple of Yamaha AVR's right now and have recommended Pioneer to a friend before. The Pioneer was an entry level unit and he's been pretty happy with it so far.

I would very likely avoid Onkyo because they have developed a bad reputation for entry and mid level AVR's. Their customer service is known to suck beyond belief ... but I still bought an older model recently for 50 bucks just to play around with.

The only reason I didn't mention those brands is because you didn't mention them. I think that Pioneer, Yamaha and Denon are all worth considering but I'm not really up on their latest offerings.

I wanted to bring this part of our conversation to your thread as an invitation for other members to chime in. One thing that can't be stressed enough is auditioning as many speakers as possible. Spend as much as possible on them and worry about everything else later.

You'll need stands or something to put speakers that size on and I use these pads to decouple the speakers:

Amazon.com: Auralex MoPAD 12 Inches by 4 Inches Monitor Acoustic Isolation Pads, Charcoal (1 Pair): Musical Instruments

Don't let anybody sell you expensive wires. The stands, the foam, the wires are nowhere near as important as the speakers. That is after all where the sound comes from.

Maybe TLS will be good enough to chime in on this as he's a Brit and knows about what all goes on over there.

 

[vedranius]

Hey alex, thanks for your reply, we were today in Boje Zvuka shop listening music on Dali Zensor 3 powered by Yamaha RX-477 and I was really surprised by the sound quality, tho maybe for my taste I'd like more highs. Listening and comparing with Ayreon, Pink Floyd, Jean Michel Jarre, some Skyrim (game) music and effects, Johnny Cash, Led Zeppelin... - FLAC
And then we tried Dali Zensor 5, which sounded really powerful and had that deep sound my friend liked, tho these weren't that burned as Zensor's 3 so highs were also a little to low for my taste.
Still, I think those were really nice speakers for that price range. Guys at Boje Zvuka also recommended IKON 1 MK2 but that's a little bit over my friends budget, and also Yamaha NS-555 which is in his price range, tho it seems that then B&W 686 S2 is better option?

I'm wondering alex2507 (or anyone else who'd like to help ), is there a way for you to choose 3 (or more ) best buys from this site (I can't post links!!!!) Ronis.hr + av-receiveri/26/ for around 2800-3000 kn (HRK) as my friend likes the look of Harman Kardon AVRs, tho I'm recommending him a Pioneer too.

Thank you everyone!

 

[Alex2507]

Pogledo sam one Denon AVR X500/1000/2000 i vidim da su snage slicne. Ako tvoj kolega netreba 5/7 HDMI ulaze, 7 kanala ili 3D ja bi preporucio onaj naj jeftini X500. Plus Denon je stabilan barem do 6 Ohma. Nisam siguran ako je stabilan do 4 Ohma a to bi bilo jos bolje.

Ja bi upotrebio ostale novce za centralni zvucnik. Swerd je prije reko da gledas da dobjes sto vise snage 'in a given price range' (I don't know how to say that in Cro).

I'm sure everybody here agrees with me.

I gotta switch over to English. I'm done showing off or showing how bad I am at that and I want to get a couple more points across. The Pioneer VSX-323 is probably of similar wattage to the Denons which are 140 watts with 1 channel driven at 6 Ohms and 1KHz. If some features in the more expensive units are required then you have to pay more but you'll have the same power.

Get your post count up in this thread and then you'll be able to post links:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/site-suggestions-feedback/49318-post-pad-thread-new-users-not-spammers.html

I like to use one piece of music to test out different speakers. Jedna Mala Plava by Jole should work pretty good. At the beginning the vocals from the back up singers should tell you if the speaker sounds natural with human voice. If not then forget that speaker. Right after those vocals there's a kick drum that will tell you if the speaker handles that little bit of bass with any authority.

I'd shy away from H/K. I've seen a few reliability issues with older models and they're known to be a day late and a dollar short on features.

I'd like it if Adam got on here and explained why he likes Pioneer better than Denon.

 

[vedranius]

Pogledo sam one Denon AVR X500/1000/2000 i vidim da su snage slicne. Ako tvoj kolega netreba 5/7 HDMI ulaze, 7 kanala ili 3D ja bi preporucio onaj naj jeftini X500. Plus Denon je stabilan barem do 6 Ohma. Nisam siguran ako je stabilan do 4 Ohma a to bi bilo jos bolje.

Ja bi upotrebio ostale novce za centralni zvucnik. Swerd je prije reko da gledas da dobjes sto vise snage 'in a given price range' (I don't know how to say that in Cro).

I'm sure everybody here agrees with me.

I gotta switch over to English. I'm done showing off or showing how bad I am at that and I want to get a couple more points across. The Pioneer VSX-323 is probably of similar wattage to the Denons which are 140 watts with 1 channel driven at 6 Ohms and 1KHz. If some features in the more expensive units are required then you have to pay more but you'll have the same power.

Get your post count up in this thread and then you'll be able to post links:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/site-suggestions-feedback/49318-post-pad-thread-new-users-not-spammers.html

I like to use one piece of music to test out different speakers. Jedna Mala Plava by Jole should work pretty good. At the beginning the vocals from the back up singers should tell you if the speaker sounds natural with human voice. If not then forget that speaker. Right after those vocals there's a kick drum that will tell you if the speaker handles that little bit of bass with any authority.

I'd shy away from H/K. I've seen a few reliability issues with older models and they're known to be a day late and a dollar short on features.

I'd like it if Adam got on here and explained why he likes Pioneer better than Denon.

Ahahaha, legendo
Thanks for an awesome description and hah, not my type of music, but ye, in this song you got everything to test speakers! Will find a better quality somewhere

And ye, would like to hear why's Pioneer better then Denon, and would like to hear from someone why I hear so many good comments about Marantz then there are for Denon (in Croatia)?

Thanks!

EDIT (question): Can someone describe me what's the difference if you put 8 ohm speakers on AV receiver that has an output of 4 ohms or 6 ohms? Does AV receivers automatically scale that, or?
As for example I was looking this AV receiver http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/98/405/VSX-S510-K/specs.html and it's output is 4 ohms...
So I'm wondering, is that better or worser then for example 6 ohm Yamaha http://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx-v477_g/?mode=model

Thanks!

 

[PENG]

Ahahaha, legendo
Thanks for an awesome description and hah, not my type of music, but ye, in this song you got everything to test speakers! Will find a better quality somewhere

And ye, would like to hear why's Pioneer better then Denon, and would like to hear from someone why I hear so many good comments about Marantz then there are for Denon (in Croatia)?





Thanks!

EDIT (question): Can someone describe me what's the difference if you put 8 ohm speakers on AV receiver that has an output of 4 ohms or 6 ohms? Does AV receivers automatically scale that, or?
As for example I was looking this AV receiver VSX-S510-K Pioneer - Amplifier, AV Receiver - Audio - Video and it's output is 4 ohms...
So I'm wondering, is that better or worser then for example 6 ohm Yamaha RX-V477 - AV Receivers/Amplifiers - Yamaha - Other European Countries

Thanks!

If you want to compare the Pioneer S510 to the Yamaha RX-V477, base on the specifications section in their manuals, their output are rated as below:

Pioneer S510: 0.08% THD, 20 to 20,000 Hz, 8 ohms at rated output -3 dB/Ch, 65W

When they say something like that, that could be, and I would interpreted as 65/2=32.5W, 8 ohms one channel driven, or possibly two channel driven simultaneously.

Yamaha RX-V477: 0.09% THD, 20,20,000 Hz, 8 ohms, two channel driven, 80W.

My educated guess is that when comparing their output at <0.1% THD, 20,20,000 Hz, 8 ohms:

Pioneer: 32.5W per channel, two channel driven.

Yamaha: 80W per channel, two channel driven.

The Pioneer is very light weight but it's amps are most likely Class D.

 

[vedranius]

If you want to compare the Pioneer S510 to the Yamaha RX-V477, base on the specifications section in their manuals, their output are rated as below:

Pioneer S510: 0.08% THD, 20 to 20,000 Hz, 8 ohms at rated output -3 dB/Ch, 65W

When they say something like that, that could be, and I would interpreted as 65/2=32.5W, 8 ohms one channel driven, or possibly two channel driven simultaneously.

Yamaha RX-V477: 0.09% THD, 20,20,000 Hz, 8 ohms, two channel driven, 80W.

My educated guess is that when comparing their output at <0.1% THD, 20,20,000 Hz, 8 ohms:

Pioneer: 32.5W per channel, two channel driven.

Yamaha: 80W per channel, two channel driven.

The Pioneer is very light weight but it's amps are most likely Class D.

Thanks for your reply.
What Class D means, I saw that on Pioneer receivers, but not sure what it was...?
So in that case Yamaha would be better? And what about Marantz NR1504 compared to them? As my friend is really about to buy that Marantz, but personally I think that Yamaha RX-477 is better option... Am I right?
Also, any experiences how would 686 S2 sound on that Yamaha as we don't have an option to test this combination, as one shop has Yamaha but doesn't have 686 S2, and another shop has 686 S2 but doesn't have Yamaha

Thanks!

 

[PENG]

Thanks for your reply.
What Class D means, I saw that on Pioneer receivers, but not sure what it was...?
So in that case Yamaha would be better? And what about Marantz NR1504 compared to them? As my friend is really about to buy that Marantz, but personally I think that Yamaha RX-477 is better option... Am I right?
Also, any experiences how would 686 S2 sound on that Yamaha as we don't have an option to test this combination, as one shop has Yamaha but doesn't have 686 S2, and another shop has 686 S2 but doesn't have Yamaha

Thanks!

Without listening to either of them, I would have go by their specs and my experience with their other products. Base on that, I would say the RX-V477 and the NR1504 are better for the 686 S2. I think your friend cannot go wrong with either so he may as well just make his choice base on looks and features he needs.

Class D amps are far more efficient than class A/B amps so they can use smaller size power supply transformers and heat sinks, thereby reducing weight. Either can sound great if well designed/built. Class A/B seems to be more commonly found in AVRs. I think class D will eventually become equally or more popular, but for now audioholics and audiophiles would probably prefer class A/B. If you need more details about class D, just google it.

 

[vedranius]

Without listening to either of them, I would have go by their specs and my experience with their other products. Base on that, I would say the RX-V477 and the NR1504 are better for the 686 S2. I think your friend cannot go wrong with either so he may as well just make his choice base on looks and features he needs.

Class D amps are far more efficient than class A/B amps so they can use smaller size power supply transformers and heat sinks, thereby reducing weight. Either can sound great if well designed/built. Class A/B seems to be more commonly found in AVRs. I think class D will eventually become equally or more popular, but for now audioholics and audiophiles would probably prefer class A/B. If you need more details about class D, just google it.

Oh, ye, needed to google it before, so Class D is a term for FET, or MOSFET amps? As I was talking with a guy that works at least 50 years in electronics, audio and video stuff and he told me that these amps are the best amps you can find... Tho not sure how 35W Pioneer you told me can be better then that Yamaha (seems for that price it can't)?