Picky Beyond Belief - The Most Encompassing HTPC Ever

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blcskate

Junior Audioholic
I have played around with this a lot. I have over 5k DVDs and Blu-Rays, but I refuse to lose a single byte of data or quality. I built a HTPC and a mini-server ~13tb after raid 5 (hardware raid of course :) ) Was planning to upgrade to close to ~60tb usable in a rack system.

My machine is not your typical XMBC setup. I built a hardcore gaming rig and dual purposed it for HT as well. Because of that its running Win 8.1. I tried Plex, XMBC, and three or four other similar solutions and found that none of them offer what I need. Not even close really.

I want a system that can do all of the following:
Play a DVD or Blu-Ray exactly the same as a player - Menus, Extras, Chapters, Skip and FF, Subtitles (100% since I love anime)
Have a nice interface that can handle 5k+ movies - Search, Filter, Show Cover Art, Allow to Customize Info (including cover art)
Can play from home or stream remotely as long as the connection is good enough
Can play on most devices - Tablets, Phones, PCs

This would be my dream setup, but I found out through tons and tons of research that it simply does not exist right now. I want something basically like Netflix, but for personal collections and with 100% playback functionality.

I have considered building it myself using some of the backbones provided by XMBC or a likewise software, but found that the incompatibilities were too great and that it would take far too long to develop on my own from scratch.

Then comes the biggest problem with HTPCs. 4k, 8k, who know whats next. The hard drive market simply cannot keep up with the rising storage size of movies. It won't be long before a single movie will be 1TB. In order to keep up you would have to spend about 10k every 2 years to upgrade your server.

So I am still stuck with using my library of movies in disc format. My wonderful idea of having the best HTPC possible is simply not reality. For those of you out there like me feel free to ask any questions or add any valuable comments. I won't give up on the concept.

Also, if anyone knows a good auto-loader for disc ripping please share. Something where I can drop 100 discs in it and it would load and rip all of them without me having to touch it. This would be a great way to reduce the load times but I haven't found one that can do the full process.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't even know what to say. :D

I have to do it the hard way and not overnight.

I use DVDFab to rip the BD ISO (takes ~ 40 min for BD). XBMC can play ISO, but it won't look like the disc menu from a BD player. PowerDVD can play the ISO that will look exactly like the disc menu from a BD player, but I don't think it has the automatic fan art like XBMC.

Since I don't care for menus, I just rip the main title, instead of the whole disc.

I also compress my video down to ~ 10GB. I don't see any loss of quality to my eyes.
 
B

blcskate

Junior Audioholic
Ya there is not a lot of market for digital purist. Heck I order my kids Disney Blu-Rays from the UK (region free ones) simply because they don't release the 3D ones here (US) on time (cough Frozen). I use DVDDecrypter and keep them foldered. Right now I only have a few hundred ripped. It would take me years to rip my collection and it would grow in that time. I would buy them digital if they came with everything that comes in a Blu-Ray bundle (Extras, 3d, non-3d versions, subtitles) and if they were a few bucks cheaper (as they should be with no materials).
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The issues I see with all of what you are asking for are very real. This is something I have complained about for about half a decade now, and the solution is not coming as far as I can tell.

First, Blu-ray Discs, while easy to rip, are still looking for solutions that don't allow them to be copied easily. Most are easy, some are not, and studios are working to keep them 'not' easy.

I have been using Dune players for my collection of 300+ BDs and 300+ DVDs along with a couple thousand TVs episodes stored on (currently) 20+ TB of RAID storage. I know that my setup runs in the upper levels of what most have. I use exclusively BD and DVD ISO rips for my movie content, and the Dune players properly show menus for both. But, with a lot of caveats which bug me to no end. Still, I think their 5+ year old design remains one of the best on the market, which is just stupid.

My dream?

While I like the HTPC concept, it does require a lot of technical knowledge.

Instead, the stand alone, dedicated player like Popcorn Hour and Dune really make a lot of sense, but they need serious upgrades.

First, their hardware for playback of BDs is weak. Lousy in fact. An extra $100 in faster processing, buffering, memory, etc. would be a good start. $200 would be more realistic, and something I would certainly pay for if it delivered. What they have now does not match up to a HTPC, or even AppleTV in terms of performance.

They offer a number of video wall user interfaces. You get your cover art and the rest, and it looks good, and is reasonably fast. But, the cover art must be loaded using programs you run on a PC and load manually. It is time consuming, and a bit confusing to use. It is non-intuitive, and doesn't guide you at all.

Finally, storage is something that I must setup entirely on my own and then build pathways for. This requires a fair bit of research and considering I just want movies on those drives, it is ridiculously cumbersome for any 'average' person to go through.

My dream?

A stand alone playback device. One that can just plug into the network anywhere in your home. You may have a 'top tier' model and then 'zone' models which aren't as fully featured, and perhaps a bit slower. These players are easily configured by using internal software to name them and get setup on your network locally to the devices, or have software which can go out from a central PC location to identify them and allow you full keyboard/web interfacing to set them up.

Movie scanning/loading. A central database stores all covers, metadata, etc. which is then copied out to the players. One main player controls the scheduling of when this database is updated, and the players can be scheduled as a group, or individually to update their local database. While a nice concept to maintain this across a network, the constant changing of images would drag the local players down so store a few thousand images locally, and information locally for quick access, but pull from a centralized storage system (or the main player).

Movie wall art should be skinnable to a different look with plenty of updates out there as users like.

Loading/Ripping can be done from a main PC if desired with good software. The software rips any non-HDCP movie to ISO format or can rip to other formats such as MKV (movie only), and MP4 or similar as desired automatically. Drop a disc in, while the ripping software is open, and it puts the movie where you tell it to. The key is 'where you tell it to'. So, if you have a RAID for DVDs, a different one for TV shows, and several for BDs, then it puts them in the appropriate drive. If you have a place to store your portable videos (MP4) then those go in that location. Options for folder storage at a initial storage level should be supported as well. ie: Movies: a, Movies: b, etc.

Dedicated ripper: A device can be sold my the manufacturer which only has one purpose which is to rip movies. Stick a movie in, it gets ripped (as you have set it up to) and then ejects the disc. Basically it is a 19" wide PC with a TV level interface. Consumers will need to load any disc decryption software on their own, this is the ONLY external level interaction any consumer should need with the ripping devices/software.

Storage: This one I consider a biggie. Storage can be cumbersome to understand. There are many RAID devices out there, their reliability is all over the place, and their support is as well. RAID 5 makes sense for many, but ease of use should come first. Just have a RAID device which is standard 19" wide and can be stacked and is relatively quiet in operation. Gbit interfaced, and plug and play ready. You buy it with 2-4 drives installed in it. Have a few models out there which can handle more/less drives as appropriate, but all with the same plug and play ease. You plug it in to the home network and power, then the main player in your home comes up with a menu to allow you to name the RAID and give it some options that are straightforward. Such as it being the 'default' storage location with 'default' folder structure. If you buy it with two, 2TB drives, then you can hot-swap upgrade it with as many drives as the unit supports.

This makes it all plug-n-play easy.

Kaleidescape is, by far, the best movie player on the market which comes closest to giving a user experience of this level, but it is really pricey.

It seems like this type of product really could change the market, but ripping software is still pretty weak, and none of these products have come together in a manner which allows ease of use to really hit a home run as an integrated media player solution.

XBMC caters to many formats other than BD ISO files, which is tough and doesn't deal with ripping, storage, or much else. It's a limited functionality player which is cool, but lacking in areas which the geek heavy end-users fail to understand is a missing feature.

I'm ready for something new... any day now...
 
B

blcskate

Junior Audioholic
You sound like a man with means... this might be something what you are looking for :
Kaleidescape - The Premiere Line
I have considered this route a few times. They do make a very nice product. I have previewed them in the past. The only problem I run into is price. They overcharge so heavily that I cannot see how they can be considered. The expansions for space are insane. A large collection like mine would cost 200k to put into their systems. That is more then the cost of my collection itself. I do alright, but I am buy no means capable of spending that kind of money on a dream system. I know there are people who could spend 200k like I spend 5, but I don't see me hitting that level in my lifetime. If I could get a total Kaleidescape that would have the space I need I would maybe drop 15k, but that is the max. Even that is more than triple what is costs to build my own servers. If they sold just their software and allowed you to supply the hardware then I would definitely buy it.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I have considered this route a few times. They do make a very nice product. I have previewed them in the past. The only problem I run into is price. They overcharge so heavily that I cannot see how they can be considered. The expansions for space are insane. A large collection like mine would cost 200k to put into their systems. That is more then the cost of my collection itself. I do alright, but I am buy no means capable of spending that kind of money on a dream system. I know there are people who could spend 200k like I spend 5, but I don't see me hitting that level in my lifetime. If I could get a total Kaleidescape that would have the space I need I would maybe drop 15k, but that is the max. Even that is more than triple what is costs to build my own servers. If they sold just their software and allowed you to supply the hardware then I would definitely buy it.
Have a cake and eat it too? heh
Welcome to the club. You, me and everyone one else here knows or should know that such dream htpc doesn't exist for several reasons with one probably most important - studios don't want them to exist.

Any a bit successful company will sooner or later run into legal issues. Companies like Kaleidescape are not trouble free, in fact the only fact which helps them to stay afloat is deep pockets and expensive lawyers, yet still their legal battles are far from over
Kaleidescape - Legal Update
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Copy_Control_Association,_Inc._v._Kaleidescape,_Inc.
Update: Kaleidescape Manages to Secure Stay of Injunction from Courts

So where it leaves us video power users/enthusiasts? Well, DIY and embrace less than ideal solutions full of compromises
Hardware client like Dune/PCH may be the way to go, but I prefer my openelec/xmbc - it does poorly on dvd/bd menus support (which I could not care less about) but excellent in pretty much other fields

There are systems also plex...

Re: Hardware Raid-5 - this may not be the best solution for data storage. It has it's own issues and I have seen how big brand server with big brand raid-5 controllers failed very badly and big brand support could not figure out why

Now-a-days parity calculations is not such big deal anymore. In many, many ways ZFS-Z1 is superior to raid-5. Snapshots, Dedupe, compression etc...
 

redscare24

Audiophyte
If price is an issue, then you might want to check out these guys. They have both performance HTPC's and a seperate segment of Audiophile HTPC's as well.


Assassin Audiophile HTPC

They seem to be highly reviewed as well and cost are about $2,000 as opposed to kaleidescapes $10,000.

-Ben
 
Stanton

Stanton

Audioholics Contributing Writer
Have a cake and eat it too? heh
Welcome to the club. You, me and everyone one else here knows or should know that such dream htpc doesn't exist for several reasons with one probably most important - studios don't want them to exist.

Any a bit successful company will sooner or later run into legal issues. Companies like Kaleidescape are not trouble free, in fact the only fact which helps them to stay afloat is deep pockets and expensive lawyers, yet still their legal battles are far from over.
You hit the nail on the head. While DVD decryption may be easy (cheap) to circumvent, BD decryption requires more substantial (expensive) methods that typical only work on a subscription (per machine) basis. This is why I may put some DVDs on my media server, but have given up on putting more than a few BDs; besides, BDs just take up too much darn disc space!
 
B

blcskate

Junior Audioholic
If price is an issue, then you might want to check out these guys. They have both performance HTPC's and a seperate segment of Audiophile HTPC's as well.


Assassin Audiophile HTPC

They seem to be highly reviewed as well and cost are about $2,000 as opposed to kaleidescapes $10,000.

-Ben
I will look at these guys tonight from the hotel.
 
B

blcskate

Junior Audioholic
Re: Hardware Raid-5 - this may not be the best solution for data storage. It has it's own issues and I have seen how big brand server with big brand raid-5 controllers failed very badly and big brand support could not figure out why

Now-a-days parity calculations is not such big deal anymore. In many, many ways ZFS-Z1 is superior to raid-5. Snapshots, Dedupe, compression etc...
That is good to know. Have you considered cloud storage options like google drive? I have been considering it now that the prices have come down.

My pros and cons are:
Pros:
Expandable Storage as Needed - Immediately
Backup and Support of Data
Don't have to pay for power of server or spend a ton of time building it, setting it up, etc...

Cons:
Price - Little to lot higher depending on capacity and failure rates of your machine
Upload speeds - way slower then writing to a hard drive
Locked in unless you have a server to move the data off too temporarily.

There are some other less important factors as well, but those were the ones that came to mind right away.
 
R

RobSmith

Audiophyte
Hey blcskate,

I have also been looking for something similar. I think the front-end is the hardest to find. Have you seen the guy over at AVS who has been building his own version of Kaleidescape. So far it looks like he has a lot working on it and it actually looks really good. I'm waiting to see when he is going to release something to the public. You should definitely check it out, sounds like something you would like My Custom Media Sofware for my HTPC

-Rob
 
R

Reorx

Full Audioholic
Thank you for the posts. This is one of the pieces I still need to figure out.

I am going down the similar route, though a little more down the enterprise path. I have too many home grown solutions, and need something more stable, and reliable.
Netgear readynas, numerous 500GB - 2TB USB drives, old desktops converted to NAS's....that have failed motherboards. ~20TB total.

I am designing a server room for a home lab and media hub.
Buying a HP EVA 8400 with 312x 450gb drives from work. for about $4k ~130 TB depending on the raid level.
Buying three HP DL380 servers (2 VMware, 1 Windows) - ~$10k. The windows one for storing and serving video's, and family media. The other 2 for a lab for training.
$1k - Cisco Catalyst 4948 (48 ports 1gb each)
$1k - 2x CAT6 cables to each room. 5 cables for the entertainment center.
$2k - Dedicated 6x 30AMP circuits.
$2k - UPS
$200 - 802.11 AC Router

If things go well, I will have everything ready for the software by the end of the summer.

The point is, for less than $20k, you could have something that business class, has less risk of loosing data, and be able to stream numerous HD video to multiple devices, in multiple rooms. Plus be able to handle the future 4k and 8k storage requirements.

The Assassin looks interesting. It could be good as a endpoint, and for ripping. I wouldn't trust those slow bulky 2-3TB drives for long term storage.
 
B

blcskate

Junior Audioholic
I am designing a server room for a home lab and media hub.
Buying a HP EVA 8400 with 312x 450gb drives from work. for about $4k ~130 TB depending on the raid level.
Crazy price on that ^. The only thing is I cannot imagine the cost of operation on something like that. Most people would not have such an option. I have seen a few EVA 8400s online going for over 10k with less than half the storage of that one.
 
brabus

brabus

Audioholic Intern
I'm kind of surprised that you would get what appears to be a consumer grade router after spending the money on all the other enterprise grade components. :)
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you for the posts. This is one of the pieces I still need to figure out.

I am going down the similar route, though a little more down the enterprise path. I have too many home grown solutions, and need something more stable, and reliable.
Netgear readynas, numerous 500GB - 2TB USB drives, old desktops converted to NAS's....that have failed motherboards. ~20TB total.

I am designing a server room for a home lab and media hub.
Buying a HP EVA 8400 with 312x 450gb drives from work. for about $4k ~130 TB depending on the raid level.
Buying three HP DL380 servers (2 VMware, 1 Windows) - ~$10k. The windows one for storing and serving video's, and family media. The other 2 for a lab for training.
$1k - Cisco Catalyst 4948 (48 ports 1gb each)
$1k - 2x CAT6 cables to each room. 5 cables for the entertainment center.
$2k - Dedicated 6x 30AMP circuits.
$2k - UPS
$200 - 802.11 AC Router

If things go well, I will have everything ready for the software by the end of the summer.

The point is, for less than $20k, you could have something that business class, has less risk of loosing data, and be able to stream numerous HD video to multiple devices, in multiple rooms. Plus be able to handle the future 4k and 8k storage requirements.

The Assassin looks interesting. It could be good as a endpoint, and for ripping. I wouldn't trust those slow bulky 2-3TB drives for long term storage.
THREE HUNDRED TWELVE (15k rpm I assume) HDs SAN in Home ?? :eek: You and ADTG were probably cell mates in same mental institution :rolleyes: [j/k]
Just curious what Gen of DL380s and how do intend to cool this room? 2k in UPS seems very modest investment - depends on the vendor, but probably 1-2 mins uptime is all you could get at this demand and budget
1k for Cisco Catalyst 4948G - Great Deal !
Vmware with iSCSI/NFS to SAN - you'll want to use distributed vSwitch to use RoundRobin for traffic
If you have VMWare questions, I might be able to help - I got VCP5-DV cert
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
THREE HUNDRED TWELVE (15k rpm I assume) HDs SAN in Home ?? :eek: You and ADTG were probably cell mates in same mental institution :rolleyes: [j/k]
Oh, come on, I am hardly even in the same universe with that level of insanity. :eek: :D

But really, with 4TB HDs these days, I just don't see the need for crazy HTPC/NAS systems, especially with XBMC and the fact that most of my HD movies are now under 10GB each. :D
 
R

Reorx

Full Audioholic
Looks like I hijacked the thread, sorry. :(
I wouldn't spin up all the drives. Just 30TB to start and use the other drives for growth and as spares. There are a lot of EVA'S for sale on ebay.
Consumer wireless because every room will be wired, and the wireless will be for portable devices.
I haven't figured out the UPS and cooling yet. I need to calculate the BTU's and see what falls in budget.

I have a VCP5-DV as well, and should have my VCAP5-DCA by the end of june. Then hopefully after VMworld I can upgrade the certs by december.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Looks like I hijacked the thread, sorry. :(
I wouldn't spin up all the drives. Just 30TB to start and use the other drives for growth and as spares. There are a lot of EVA'S for sale on ebay.
Consumer wireless because every room will be wired, and the wireless will be for portable devices.
I haven't figured out the UPS and cooling yet. I need to calculate the BTU's and see what falls in budget.

I have a VCP5-DV as well, and should have my VCAP5-DCA by the end of june. Then hopefully after VMworld I can upgrade the certs by december.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Cool beans :) I am glad you (at least partially ;)) understand what you're getting yourself into. :p

If you happen to see Vmware certs coupons - please share :cool:

And good luck on your VCAP5 exam !
 

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