Reliability of human senses

[PENG]

But...But....But....How can they sound the same if they use different capacitors, resistors, wires, heat sinks, cases? Even the screws, nuts, and bolts are all different?

How can they sound the same when one amp has a FR of +/-0.0dB and another has a FR of +/-0.1dB, one had a SNR of -120dB vs -110dB, Crosstalk of -100dB vs -70dB, outputs 300WPC vs 150WPC? That's impossible.

They look different, cost different too so must sound different and like dresses and shoes you have to match them with other components. Too bad Parasound, ATI or any other manufacturers don't seem too keen telling us up front what synergize best with theirs, it would have make our life easier.

If they sound the same I would just buy the cheapest one and get someone to make a nice looking enclosure for it. So I agree they all sound different and we must audition at least 50 of them in our own home, wait, I suddenly remember the issue of synergy, it is a permutation thing, i.e. we have to get at least another 50 preamp or prepro to try with the amp, like wise for speakers. Too bad life it so short, by the time we find the best combinations we would be half blind and deaf already.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They look different, cost different too so must sound different and like dresses and shoes you have to match them with other components. Too bad Parasound, ATI or any other manufacturers don't seem too keen telling us up front what synergize best with theirs, it would have make our life easier.

If they sound the same I would just buy the cheapest one and get someone to make a nice looking enclosure for it. So I agree they all sound different and we must audition at least 50 of them in our own home, wait, I suddenly remember the issue of synergy, it is a permutation thing, i.e. we have to get at least another 50 preamp or prepro to try with the amp, like wise for speakers. Too bad life it so short, by the time we find the best combinations we would be half blind and deaf already.

You beat me to the SYNERGY punch.

Yes, every amp sound diametrically differently from one another. You must find the right amp that suits your taste as well as your speaker. If your speaker is cold, you must buy a warm amp. If your speaker is too forward, you must buy an amp that is laid back. And if your speaker is bright, you must buy a stupid amp.

 

[sharkman]

But...But....But....How can they sound the same if they use different capacitors, resistors, wires, heat sinks, cases? Even the screws, nuts, and bolts are all different?

How can they sound the same when one amp has a FR of +/-0.0dB and another has a FR of +/-0.1dB, one had a SNR of -120dB vs -110dB, Crosstalk of -100dB vs -70dB, outputs 300WPC vs 150WPC? That's impossible.

Come, come friend, surely you can do better than that!

You pretend play out the subjective argument by referencing caps and parts? Then I leave you to your notions, the above post about chocolate has me craving more junk food(thanks a lot!).

 

[sharkman]

They absolutely do all sound the same.

When they're unplugged.

This argument that's been repeated weekly for the past year on at least one of the forums I frequent has me feeling like your dog looks in that pic. It's kind of a pavlov's dog thing, minus the drool and interest, I think. What I don't get, however, is why it is that the objectivists feel that they have the obligation to convert every subjectivist that they meet. Anyway, I like your dog.

 

[3db]

This argument that's been repeated weekly for the past year on at least one of the forums I frequent has me feeling like your dog looks in that pic. It's kind of a pavlov's dog thing, minus the drool and interest, I think. What I don't get, however, is why it is that the objectivists feel that they have the obligation to convert every subjectivist that they meet. Anyway, I like your dog.

Subjectivists cannot reliably reproduce the results they claim to hear. Why is it that Subjectivists afe so scared of blind listening tests?

 

[Goliath]

Guys, thanks for pitching in. Enjoying the discussion.

I think most of you are aware of my position on sensory perception, but I still find it oddly amusing to hear that our senses are somehow the most reliable tools at hand for discerning minute audible differences, at least according to many audiophiles I've had the displeasure of discussing the subject with.

It's all about connecting the dots, and when evaluating audio gear, given how poorly controlled most tend to be, there are potentially hundreds of dots that branch off in different directions that may lead to the same conclusion - a conclusion that may have nothing to do with equipment per se but more a function of how the equipment was compared.

However, this is all immaterial -it's all about following the evidence of your ears, right?

 

[herbu]

And if your speaker is bright, you must buy a stupid amp.

Finally, some advice I can use.
Logic dictates the inverse of your statement is also true. My speakers are dark, (black), therefore I need a smart amp.
I have a smart phone with thousands of available apps, a bunch of slidey thingys, a girl that talks to me, and OS updates every few months. My amp only has on/off.
What is holding back the amp industry?
WHEN are they going to give us what we NEED?!?!

 

[PENG]

Finally, some advice I can use.
Logic dictates the inverse of your statement is also true. My speakers are dark, (black), therefore I need a smart amp.
I have a smart phone with thousands of available apps, a bunch of slidey thingys, a girl that talks to me, and OS updates every few months. My amp only has on/off.
What is holding back the amp industry?
WHEN are they going to give us what we NEED?!?!

Agree, when are they going to give us amps that has a display and the ability to select other components to synergize with?

For example, during setup the amp should ask:

Please select your preference of voicing, the scroll down menu will show something like % warm (100,90,80,70..), 100 being the warmest, 50 neutral/transparent, 0 the coldest allowed).

Then it would ask:

Please select other components, the the scroll down will show preamp, prepro, AVR as prepro, media players, loudspeakers, turntables, cartridges etc. etc....., you select the first one, then it would ask for the next, then the next, until you have selected everything components in your setup. Once setup, the amp would automatically synergize itself to match the other components to get the voicing you want.

If not, you can fine tune the settings manually using your senses, or you can push a bypass/pure direct button, now I am thinking ADTG kind of pseudo audiophile but truly audioholic type.

This feature has to be available on the power amps so it can be independent of any room EQ systems typically found on prepros and because no matter what preamp or preamp audiophiles have, it will always be a tedious process to pick the rest of their components to match regardess. Remember emathews, it took him a few buy, sell, return and buy again before he found what he likes. It is real!

 

[PENG]

Come, come friend, surely you can do better than that!

You pretend play out the subjective argument by referencing caps and parts? Then I leave you to your notions, the above post about chocolate has me craving more junk food(thanks a lot!).

Thanks to you now we all get some good laughs without getting too serious or pissed!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Come, come friend, surely you can do better than that!

You pretend play out the subjective argument by referencing caps and parts? Then I leave you to your notions, the above post about chocolate has me craving more junk food(thanks a lot!).

As long as it as 0g Trans Fat and < 11% Saturated Fat, you have my blessings ------ as long as you promise to jog for 20 minutes with a constant heart rate of 120-140bpm 3 x weekly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Finally, some advice I can use.
Logic dictates the inverse of your statement is also true. My speakers are dark, (black), therefore I need a smart amp.
I have a smart phone with thousands of available apps, a bunch of slidey thingys, a girl that talks to me, and OS updates every few months. My amp only has on/off.
What is holding back the amp industry?
WHEN are they going to give us what we NEED?!?!

Yeah, really, when will we get digital amps that can update the watts every few months?

I could use an update from version 300WPC to version 1000WPC about now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agree, when are they going to give us amps that has a display and the ability to select other components to synergize with?

For example, during setup the amp should ask:

Please select your preference of voicing, the scroll down menu will show something like % warm (100,90,80,70..), 100 being the warmest, 50 neutral/transparent, 0 the coldest allowed).

Then it would ask:

Please select other components, the the scroll down will show preamp, prepro, AVR as prepro, media players, loudspeakers, turntables, cartridges etc. etc....., you select the first one, then it would ask for the next, then the next, until you have selected everything components in your setup. Once setup, the amp would automatically synergize itself to match the other components to get the voicing you want.

If not, you can fine tune the settings manually using your senses, or you can push a bypass/pure direct button, now I am thinking ADTG kind of pseudo audiophile but truly audioholic type.

This feature has to be available on the power amps so it can be independent of any room EQ systems typically found on prepros and because no matter what preamp or preamp audiophiles have, it will always be a tedious process to pick the rest of their components to match regardess. Remember emathews, it took him a few buy, sell, return and buy again before he found what he likes. It is real!

Or the pre-pro could sense the synergy and capability of everything - speakers, amps, rooms, speakers and subwoofers placement - and either adjust accordingly per protocol or per personal senses. Oh, wait, it's already doing this.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Do y'all feel better now? Need a cigarette?

 

[sharkman]

As long as it as 0g Trans Fat and < 11% Saturated Fat, you have my blessings ------ as long as you promise to jog for 20 minutes with a constant heart rate of 120-140bpm 3 x weekly.

Hah! I already jog for 25 min although i'm not sure on the heart rate. And on the cigarette idea, I sometimes think I'd like to try the old school pipe, is that weird? More weirdness, about 3 years ago I bought a Zippo lighter and fluid, etc, because I like the sound it makes(don't smoke anything). Maybe in another 10 years I'll be piping it up to music on my system that refuses to live by your science rules!

* Therapy suggestion: Buy a gas powered yard device and use it at least a couple of times a month. The feeling of getting next to nature and conquering lawn edges, weeds, leaves and the like with a gas powered power tool is much more effective than laying on a couch and spewing on about your childhood bullies any day.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Therapy suggestion: Buy a gas powered yard device and use it at least a couple of times a month. The feeling of getting next to nature and conquering lawn edges, weeds, leaves and the like with a gas powered power tool is much more effective than laying on a couch and spewing on about your childhood bullies any day.

Don't forget to wear hearing protection devices.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Need a cigarette?

No way. Bad bad bad. Worse than amps all having their own sonic signatures.

 

[Goliath]

I find it fascinating how some audiophiles are apparently immune to their cognitive biases, some are so convinced that they couldn't possibly be biased under just about any condition, whether it to related to pricing, looks, brand etc.

We get those audiophiles who scream from the mountain tops and proclaim 'I'm not easily fooled!!!", 'Not me ... ' etc etc. I think part of the issue is that some audiophiles think that bias is purely a conscious effect. But that would be a mistake, because bias can exist in the subconscious and unconscious parts of the brain.

There are biases, both personal and technical, that you may not even be cognisant of that may be affecting and/or steering your perceptions while listening to music in a sighted test. It's the biases you aren't aware of which are potentially the problem, hence the need for controls to mitigate such influences.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I find it fascinating how some audiophiles are apparently immune to their cognitive biases, some are so convinced that they couldn't possibly be biased under just about any condition, whether it to related to pricing, looks, brand etc.

We get those audiophiles who scream from the mountain tops and proclaim 'I'm not easily fooled!!!", 'Not me ... ' etc etc. I think part of the issue is that some audiophiles think that bias is purely a conscious effect. But that would be a mistake, because bias can exist in the subconscious and unconscious parts of the brain.

There are biases, both personal and technical, that you may not even be cognisant of that may be affecting and/or steering your perceptions while listening to music in a sighted test. It's the biases you aren't aware of which are potentially the problem, hence the need for controls to mitigate such influences.

I think you're preaching to the choir.

People believe a lot of things in this hobby. But it's only a hobby. So perhaps it's more fun for people to believe those things that some of us don't believe. No harm done.

Just one example - some people believe that even in pure direct mode, leveled matched, same speakers, and biased removed, a Marantz AVR will sound warmer while a Denon will sound brighter. There is nothing we can do that will change their minds. But in the end, there's no harm done. They can believe it all they want. We can laugh all we want. They won't care.

 

[Goliath]

Just one example - some people believe that even in pure direct mode, leveled matched, same speakers, and biased removed, a Marantz AVR will sound warmer while a Denon will sound brighter.

I assume the test was sighted? In which case it wasn't much of a "test", if we are using the dictionary definition of the word. I've also read from people who claim that Yamaha receivers sound 'brighter' than their NAD receivers. It's gotten to the point now where people just instinctively believe that Yamaha is 'bright'. No evidence to show for it, but well...

We then learn that the level-matching done in many cases were done via SPL meter, or worse, by ear, which we all know is far too course for the job. We also learn the switching was done slow, and we learn the evaluation was sighted. Too many biases to even list them all! Funnily enough, I believe even setting a receiver to Pure Direct does not necessarily completely disable all processing done in some receivers.

You can turn off all front panel visual indicators that show that room correction circuits are active, and even engage "Pure Direct", yet the front speaker L vs R "distance" compensation remains active, at least for digitally connected sources. Threads on AVS from several members have confirmed this. Compare such a unit to any purely analog preamp, or a properly designed digital AVR/prepro, and you'll certainly hear a difference, at least when the secret L. vs. R. distance discrepancy is .2 ft or more.

It's difficult to know that the person doing the testing actually did what he claimed to do, or did a good test, or didn't leave out details, or ... who actually knows. Who knows how accurate their test was, or the conditions of their test was, or anything outside of their testimony. Like you say, no harm done, so long as you don't preach non-science to me otherwise we'll have problems.

 

[Goliath]

Found this video that I thought was very informative as it relates to perception, among other things. It's LONG, but it's worth the time to watch, in my opinion :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_LN7qUiTpo