PSA updates

[Bear123]

Just ordered a pair of XV15se's...........in house testing indicates 20 Hz output of around 108 dB @ 2m RMS..........with two that's 114 dB for $1699 shipped. Yum.

 

[agarwalro]

This thread reminds me of a car enthusiast friend. I asked him why he chose a specific tire over a different one I was recommending. He said, "I like the tread pattern it makes in the parking garage after driving in rain". I was like, WTF! Not kidding.

 

[Basshead81]

Just ordered a pair of XV15se's...........in house testing indicates 20 Hz output of around 108 dB @ 2m RMS..........with two that's 114 dB for $1699 shipped. Yum.

Good deal Bear. I ordered my 3 SE upgrade kits Today.

 

[Steve81]

Another interesting (to me anyway) comparison:
CEA2010, 1m peak
XS15se FW18.0C
20-32Hz avg 114.7dB 111.9dB
40-63Hz avg 125.9dB 125.9dB

I don't know what they're doing over at PSA these days, but that's a heck of a 15" driver to keep up with the 18" "Funk lite" driver across the board and exceed it down low, with less power on tap to boot.

 

[Tom V.]

Another interesting (to me anyway) comparison:
CEA2010, 1m peak
XV15se FW18.0C
20-32Hz avg 114.7dB 111.9dB
40-63Hz avg 125.9dB 125.9dB




I don't know what they're doing over at PSA these days, but that's a heck of a 15" driver to keep up with the 18" "Funk lite" driver across the board and exceed it down low, with less power on tap to boot.

1st, please be sure you are comparing 1m peak to 1m peak and 2m rms to 2 meter rms.
2nd, did you do the pascal conversion per CEA-2010? That can add a little to the averages if not.

Also, I'm not familiar with all of the funk model names. Is that a sealed model? If so, please check that the driver was facing the mic during testing. If not, that will drop the numbers quite a bit. If it is ported or PR, the same issue(output attenuation) applies to any of the acoustical emitters not facing the mic.

Lastly, as I tried to explain with regards to "rated xmax" there is a lot more going on with complete systems than any singular component metric(in this example, cone size). You have a medium throw 18 in a very small(for an 18" enclosure)...sealed. Not really fair to compare it to a larger, ported enclosure. They seem to be different products aimed at different audiences. Our smaller, sealed XS15se might be more comparable. Even then we only offer it in Satin Black. We'll do okay on the performance/price ratios here but I'm sure we'd suffer in a "waf" comparison..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Steve81]

1st, please be sure you are comparing 1m peak to 1m peak and 2m rms to 2 meter rms.
2nd, did you do the pascal conversion per CEA-2010? That can add a little to the averages if not.

Yes on both fronts, though it never hurts if you want to double check; the numbers are over at data-bass.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=97

Also, I'm not familiar with all of the funk model names. Is that a sealed model? If so, please check that the driver was facing the mic during testing. If not, that will drop the numbers quite a bit. If it is ported or PR, the same issue(output attenuation) applies to any of the acoustical emitters not facing the mic.

Yes, it is a compact, front firing single driver sealed sub. I would assume in that instance, the driver would be facing the mic.

Lastly, as I tried to explain with regards to "rated xmax" there is a lot more going on with complete systems than any singular component metric(in this example, cone size). You have a medium throw 18 in a very small(for an 18" enclosure)...sealed. Not really fair to compare it to a larger, ported enclosure. They seem to be different products aimed at different audiences. Our smaller, sealed XS15se might be more comparable. Even then we only offer it in Satin Black. We'll do okay on the performance/price ratios here but I'm sure we'd suffer in a "waf" comparison..

Sorry, I mistyped XV15se but meant (and the numbers are for) the XS15se; I edited my post to reflect. With respect to the rest, the extra variables involved make it much more interesting. 18" and 800W don't mean much on their own, but the passive testing of the Funk unit showed the driver/box combo to be reasonably sensitive, exceeding 90dB w/ 1W @ 1m at 40Hz, and delivering a whopping 96.5dB w/ 1W at 63Hz. The stock LAB15 driver by comparison is rated for 88.5dB*, which makes for a big apparent disparity in that respect. The difference in amplifier power is less drastic, 800W for the Funk vs 550W for the XS15se, but makes the apparent gap much larger. I understand that your driver is of course, not stock, but that's a big jump all the same, particularly when combined with the excursion necessary to meet the 20-32Hz average (no less than 25mm one way by my calcs).

*As a side note, that number combined with the 1650W dynamic peak capability listed for the XS15se's plate amp yields 120.7dB @ 1m

 

[Tom V.]

Yes on both fronts, though it never hurts if you want to double check; the numbers are over at data-bass.
Data-Bass



Sorry, I mistyped XV15se but meant (and the numbers are for) the XS15se; I edited my post to reflect. With respect to the rest, the extra variables involved make it much more interesting. 18" and 800W don't mean much on their own, but the passive testing of the Funk unit showed the driver/box combo to be reasonably sensitive, exceeding 90dB w/ 1W @ 1m at 40Hz, and delivering a whopping 96.5dB w/ 1W at 63Hz. The stock LAB15 driver by comparison is rated for 88.5dB*, which makes for a big apparent disparity in that respect. The difference in amplifier power is less drastic, 800W for the Funk vs 550W for the XS15se, but makes the difference in apparent sensitivities that much larger. I understand that your driver is of course, not stock, but that's a big jump all the same, particularly when combined with the excursion necessary to meet the 20-32Hz average (no less than 25mm one way by my calcs).

*As a side note, that number combined with the 1650W dynamic peak capability listed for the XS15se's plate amp yields 120.7dB @ 1m

1)I'd have to double check but I believe the highest CEA-2010 we saw with the XS15se was in the mid 119( 2m/rms)s. So taking into consideration all the system loses involved going from electrical to mechanical...that sounds spot on..we may be under rating our amps a little... In the interest of full disclosure though----in 20 years(and probably a 1000 different designs and design variations I have yet to ever check the efficiency of a raw driver. Things are *so* dependent on the enclosure, to me, I just focus on the end results. YMMV of course.

2)driver efficiency (by itself) is not a great indicator of anything really. The next time we're outside measuring I'll see if Jim has time to do a 1 watt, 1 meter chart if you would be interested.

3)I've never used any of the share ware "driver excursion calculators" very much so its hard for me to comment on something related to them. I can tell you if all you are putting in is distance and some generic driver size (like "15 inch") there are quite a few variables that aren't being taken into account. Many of these will often only be small factions but when summed together it can add up..

Josh Ricci will be measuring a XS15se and a XV30Fse before too long. I'm confident his numbers will be quite similar to ours.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Tom V.]

Btw, if you have time could you link the excursion calc? I'd like to check it out before leaving the office tonight. Thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Steve81]

In the interest of full disclosure though----in 20 years(and probably a 1000 different designs and design variations I have yet to ever check the efficiency of a raw driver. Things are *so* dependent on the enclosure, to me, I just focus on the end results. YMMV of course...2)driver efficiency (by itself) is not a great indicator of anything really. The next time we're outside measuring I'll see if Jim has time to do a 1 watt, 1 meter chart if you would be interested.

Hi Tom,

Josh measured the Funk's efficiency enclosure and all (not to mention many other off the shelf 18" drivers in a ~4 cu ft box). The 18" driver used by the Funk 18.0C is definitely more sensitive than the average 18" long throw driver. W/ respect to the LAB15, obviously I haven't measured it in a box, though modeling it out yields similar results to the rated 88.5dB w/ 1W. I would definitely be interested in knowing how that relates with actuals.

3)I've never used any of the share ware "driver excursion calculators" very much so its hard for me to comment on something related to them. I can tell you if all you are putting in is distance and some generic driver size (like "15 inch") there are quite a few variables that aren't being taken into account. Many of these will often only be small factions but when summed together it can add up..

I'm doing it the semi-old fashioned way with a formula and an excel sheet.

p[SUB]RMS[/SUB] = sqrt(2) * pi * f[SUP]2[/SUP] * rho * S[SUB]D[/SUB] * x[SUB]p[/SUB] / r

where:
p[SUB]RMS[/SUB] = RMS acoustic pressure in Pascals
f = frequency in Hz
rho = density of air (= 1.2041 kg / m[SUP]2[/SUP] at 20 deg C)
S[SUB]D[/SUB] = surface area of driver in m[SUP]2[/SUP] (= 0.08237 m[SUP]2[/SUP] for the LAB15)
x[SUB]p[/SUB] = peak displacement in meters
r = distance in meters (1 meter)

So in Excel for the XS15se, I've got:

Root 2	Pi	F	F Squared	Rho	Sd	Excursion	Pa (1m RMS)	dB 1m Peak
1.414213562	3.141592654	20	400	1.2041	0.08237	0.026	4.582788686	110.2
1.414213562	3.141592654	25	625	1.2041	0.08237	0.026	7.160607321	114.1
1.414213562	3.141592654	31.5	992.25	1.2041	0.08237	0.026	11.36818018	118.1
							7.70385873	114.7

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Josh Ricci will be measuring a XS15se and a XV30Fse before too long. I'm confident his numbers will be quite similar to ours.

I'm definitely interested to see the results. A couple XS15se's might be perfect to augment my current setup.

 

[Steve81]

Btw, if you have time could you link the excursion calc? I'd like to check it out before leaving the office tonight. Thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Hi Tom,

Just shot the excel worksheet to sales @ psa.

Edit: and of course I misnamed it XS30se Excursion Estimates before I e-mailed it out to you...yeah I'm on my game tonight.

 

[Tom V.]

Hi Tom,

Josh measured the Funk's efficiency enclosure and all (not to mention many other off the shelf 18" drivers in a ~4 cu ft box). The 18" driver used by the Funk 18.0C is definitely more sensitive than the average 18" long throw driver. W/ respect to the LAB15, obviously I haven't measured it in a box, though modeling it out yields similar results to the rated 88.5dB w/ 1W. I would definitely be interested in knowing how that relates with actuals.

I'm definitely interested to see the results. A couple XS15se's might be perfect to augment my current setup.

I'm not sure what more I could offer without have the system to measure here. As I noted, I never bother looking at driver t/s very much. In the 20 years I've been doing this I have had hundreds of drivers shipped to me for evaluation purposes. Some of the best "on paper" drivers performed the worst and vice-versa. Driver sensitivity is next to meaningless in my book as there are too many other variables involved in how it will perform in a specific system design. YMMV of course.

At the risk of repeating myself, if anyone is looking at the t/s sheet for a "lab15" there's going to be next to nothing in common with the Power Sound Audio SE drivers. The two t/s metrics being referenced here(xmax and sens(1w / 1m) are *significantly* different. You would be just as close going to some random 15" driver OEM and plugging their t/s into one of our designs and then wondering why things aren't matching up exactly per a excel calc. I don't mean to be mysterious or anything but I'm not about to divulge everything I've learned in 20 years/ hundreds if not >1000 DUT, and a few thousand hours of ground plane work on a public forum. There's just a lot more going on with complete system(powered subwoofer)designs than meets the eye of a causal observer..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Steve81]

No worries Tom; the sum of it all just seems to be that the performance of the "se" line is pretty astounding, especially once you factor price into the mix. Given that Josh is getting his hands on these puppies to give us all the low down, there's really not much else to it.

 

[UNCMT9]

Excuse the ignorance, but what are the benefits of the new drivers and will they be used in all of their models? Really looking into the XV15 & XS30se. Thanks!

 

[Tom V.]

Excuse the ignorance, but what are the benefits of the new drivers and will they be used in all of their models? Really looking into the XV15 & XS30se. Thanks!

The new Power-X SE drivers are used with all Power-X models (XS15se, XV15se, XS30se, and the XV30Fse). The primary benefits are a bit more power handling, particularly under heavy "load", and slightly better overall linearity.

If you don't mind me asking, how large is the listening room and are there any large openings to other areas of the home?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do you offer unpowered subs for guys who want to use their own sub amps?

 

[Tom V.]

Do you offer unpowered subs for guys who want to use their own sub amps?

Sorry, no. We've considered that but the demand represents a very small fraction of home audio enthusiasts. I believe Funk and JTR both offer high quality examples.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[fuzz092888]

Sorry, no. We've considered that but the demand represents a very small fraction of home audio enthusiasts. I believe Funk and JTR both offer high quality examples.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I know it may be too similar to offering an unpowered version, but would you ever consider selling "powered" subs, but with the amp in either a separate enclosure or a rack version of the amps you use? I understand that passive versions would hit a very small number of consumers, but I can't help but think that there would be a market for you offer the subs with a separate amp. I know placement isn't always conducive to where an outlet is. I would also think that it would make dealing with amplifier issues easier, even if they are few and far between. There is also the possibility of including powerful DSP options within the external amp as well. Perhaps not for the entire lineup, but maybe as premium models of the Prism lineup.

 

[Bear123]

Dual PSA XV15se's in my room, eq'd to taste:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sorry, no. We've considered that but the demand represents a very small fraction of home audio enthusiasts. I believe Funk and JTR both offer high quality examples.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Have you done a survey to see how many audiophiles would be interested?

Yes, Funk offers awesome non-powered subs. The Funk flagship sub comes standard as non-powered + external DSP/EQ/Amp.

The $15,000 Focal Grande Sub also comes standard as non-powered + external DSP/EQ/Amp.

RBH also offers both non-powered and powered versions of their high quality subs.

 

[UNCMT9]

My next sub purchase will probably be dual PSA XV15's. Lots of slam, new driver, and a price that's hard to beat.