PSA updates

[billy p]

Nothing for nothing, but you guys mind taking this to PM's?

Like I said he was warned about entering owners threads & personal attacks over at AVS....so he comes here....not much else left to say.

 

[shadyJ]

Where was I warned about entering owner threads or making personal attacks over at AVS? Could you please link to them because I must have missed them. It would be a surprise to me, because I stay out of owners threads, and I do not engage in name-calling. Surely you can back up those claims, because they look just a little bit like a smear to me.

 

[billy p]

Where was I warned about entering owner threads or making personal attacks over at AVS? Could you please link to them because I must have missed them. It would be a surprise to me, because I stay out of owners threads, and I do not engage in name-calling. Surely you can back up those claims, because they look just a little bit like a smear to me.

This one in particular... your post is referenced and the thread is later locked because another poster needed to add his 2 cents...there are others posts & threads...but I'm not going to sift through all your posts.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1530373/subwoofer-recommendation

 

[shadyJ]

If that is all you have to back up your claim, that is pretty weak. Note in particular that is not an owner thread nor do I engage in name calling.

 

[billy p]

If that is all you have to back up your claim, that is pretty weak. Note in particular that is not an owner thread nor do I engage in name calling.

You simply asked me to provide a link and I did...weak? Ha....I wouldn't say your argumnets come from a position of strenght, considering your posting history.

Anyhow..I was asked politely not to side track this thread and I am going to bow-out and since you don't own any PSA products there is nothing for you to see here....now... is there?

 

[Steve81]

No need to bow out Billy, though I'll see if I can move things in a more productive direction. From what I've seen, there were two main objections to Tom's numbers.

1. The averaging of the CEA burst numbers which hid a peak at 50Hz and at the same time leveraged it to raise the overall output numbers. It's presumably a moot point now given the driver switch, though if Tom wishes to provide CEA2010 output numbers by frequency for the XS15se (which is going to get measured anyway), that certainly wouldn't hurt.

2. PSA's adjustments to data-bass' numbers. Again, kind of a moot point now that we're on to new models, and the fact that Josh will be taking the point that the drivers & port are on different surfaces going forward.

As far as the new numbers go, there's really not much to do but wait and see.

 

[its phillip]

I dislike seeing averaged numbers. I will say I'm definitely looking forward to seeing tests of the new products though

 

[Steve81]

Looks like the PowerX SE edition CEA numbers are getting revised:

 

[its phillip]

I will agree with shadyj on some things - I'm really not a fan of the "output factor" (formerly value factor) either. I don't like seeing averaged output numbers.

I will disagree with him by believing that PSA offers high quality, capable subwoofers...especially now with the new drivers and dsp settings. I am looking forward to seeing all of their subs tested/reviewed by data-bass/audioholics.

I would pretty much like to see every subwoofer ever made to be tested by Ricci and have the numbers on data-bass & audioholics. The only other publication I know of that offers CEA-2010 data is S+V and I can't say that I consider their data to be very accurate. Huge differences between their test of the SVS PB12-NSD and Ricci's. I haven't read many of their other reviews (I don't really care for how they present the data nor do I consider it very accurate) so I don't know if such huge disparities exist among other products that AH/DB have also tested...so of course it is possible that the PB12-NSD review was just a fluke. I'm not going to bother doing the comparisons because I trust the numbers on DB & AH

 

[Basshead81]

I think it says something when PSA is going to have their entire power x line tested. If they had something to hide I doubt they would be going through the process... What other ID company is planning on having their entire line up tested?

 

[Steve81]

I think it says something when PSA is going to have their entire power x line tested. If they had something to hide I doubt they would be going through the process...

Agreed, though the numbers still look funny to me

	PSA XS15se	JL f113
20-32Hz CEA 2010*	114.2	115.2
40-63Hz CEA 2010*	125.3	124.9
20-63Hz CEA 2010*	121.3	121.3
Output Factor	1	1

<tbody>
</tbody>

*normalized 1m, peak

Considering the two are roughly the same external dimensions, and the f113 is boasting a 13.5" driver with 4" of peak to peak excursion motivated by a 2,500W amp, not to mention 5x the price, that's extremely impressive if the XS15se can keep pace.

 

[Basshead81]

Yea but I am betting the JL driver is not very efficient. JL has never been known for high efficiency drivers, atleast in the car audio world.

Aside from that Tom's data with the XV15 was within 1db of JR. He only added the compensation for driver orientation which JR said is correct. Sure averaging the 40-63hz and 20-31hz can hide a hump in the response, but lets face it, is it really that big of a deal? I can name several subs off of data-bass that have a max burst hump and yet they never get any cirticism. One is the Velo DD18, another is the ED A7s-450...even the PB13 has a slight hump in 20hz mode. Speaking of ED, I do recall the A7-900 being touted as the top dog for along time, but if it were measured by JR today would the data reveal some issues?

 

[Steve81]

I don't imagine that it is, but the difference in nominal amp power amounts to 6.6dB; combined with the fact that the XS15se needs a substantial amount of excursion down low to keep up makes it well...impressive.

Edit since you edited your post a little: Far be it from me to say the numbers are outright wrong. Josh will tell us soon enough. However, as is, based on what little I know, they seem too good to be true. I posted earlier the standard equation to figure output vs driver displacement which indicated that the XS15se's driver have to exceed the LAB15's xmech by 4mm to reach the old 114.7dB 20-32Hz average. Such formulas aren't perfect of course, and maybe Eminence can modify the driver to deliver a clean ~30mm one way stroke. However, as I've more or less stated, if that's the case, Tom is using a damned amazing 15" driver regardless of price; that it can fit in a sub priced at $800 only enhances that.

 

[Basshead81]

Yea that is a good point Steve...I know Tom said they have been working with Eminence for over a year trying to find a driver that met PSA requirements.

 

[UNCMT9]

The XS15 & XS30 look like they both are ridiculous values. I think Tom offers 5-10% discount for multiple subs as well. Both of those are on my radar, depending on my next space.

 

[Tom V.]

You have already debunked the manner in which you applied that scaling in your own post. The output gained by orienting the driver to mic is not what you listed. But, of course, you know this. You also know this is not the substantive complaint against your claims, which you are seemingly incapable of addressing or defending.

This is an abrupt change of perspective. Every other time I claimed that CEA 2010 was not the only performance metric a subwoofer should be judged by, you accused me of cherry-picking. But now CEA is merely an industry measurement protocol for output bursts? Could have fooled me from reading any of your other posts. That fact is certainly not emphasized on your product pages.

As I have said repeatedly, show me the specific data point(s) you don't agree with. Because the links you provide only correlate to me thoughts on the subject. You just don't seem to understand any of issues involved. The above links show deviations of a fraction of a single dB from what I can gather from your rantings here. Please show me the error on our chart? Or is this "error" the fact that two tests, in two different locations, with two different sets of equipment....DID show a deviation <1.0dB? If that is your complaint, I'm sorry but that is normal. You can check with Josh, Brent, anyone that has any experience with GP work.

Your second statement is a complete fabrication/twisting of facts. Please provide the link where I'm stating that the maximum output bursts of CEA-2010 are the ONLY important performance metric when comparing subwoofers? That is *exactly* what you are claiming in your statement. I have never had that POV and certainly haven't posted anything remotely like that. Very typical of your agenda though.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Tom V.]

Like I said he was warned about entering owners threads & personal attacks over at AVS....so he comes here....not much else left to say.

Bingo..!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Tom V.]

I think it says something when PSA is going to have their entire power x line tested. If they had something to hide I doubt they would be going through the process... What other ID company is planning on having their entire line up tested?

That's true. We have the XS15se and the XV30Fse getting measured in the near future (within 30 days I'd say) and we'll send the XV15se and XS30se before the summer is over(and depending when Josh has an opening) So our entire Power-X model line will be measured by Josh. I think that compares well to any other OEM.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Tom V.]

I will agree with shadyj on some things - I'm really not a fan of the "output factor" (formerly value factor) either. I don't like seeing averaged output numbers.

I will disagree with him by believing that PSA offers high quality, capable subwoofers...especially now with the new drivers and dsp settings. I am looking forward to seeing all of their subs tested/reviewed by data-bass/audioholics.

I would pretty much like to see every subwoofer ever made to be tested by Ricci and have the numbers on data-bass & audioholics. The only other publication I know of that offers CEA-2010 data is S+V and I can't say that I consider their data to be very accurate. Huge differences between their test of the SVS PB12-NSD and Ricci's. I haven't read many of their other reviews (I don't really care for how they present the data nor do I consider it very accurate) so I don't know if such huge disparities exist among other products that AH/DB have also tested...so of course it is possible that the PB12-NSD review was just a fluke. I'm not going to bother doing the comparisons because I trust the numbers on DB & AH

One comment about the output factor(I'd stated the same many times in the past)...our reason for this is the majority of emails/phone calls we get are from folks who have no/little understanding of logarithmics. We don't need to put up a "warranty length comparison" because every one understands the concept of time. We don't need to put up a "cost comparison" because everyone understands $100 is less expensive than $150. But with regards to the output, the majority of our customers(or potential customers) have no idea what the difference 2dB or 3dB or 4dB really means.

And I've always been a proponent of looking at the entire operating bandwidth of the product versus comparing single frequencies. When I look at the output factors on our website they match up very closely with our own listening sessions with various products so we do believe they are an accurate reflection of the OUTPUT capabilities. We are working on charts that will include more bandwidth. As far as listing every frequency, that type of information would not transfer well to a "quick reference chart" like this. We are, however, attempting to incorporate that type of info(every frequency listed) in a different area on the site which would be linked to all of the current charts. Something like "For a more detailed look at the CEA-2010 bursts please click here".

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[Tom V.]

The XS15 & XS30 look like they both are ridiculous values. I think Tom offers 5-10% discount for multiple subs as well. Both of those are on my radar, depending on my next space.

We like to think so..

We get so few returns we are considering just offering for free shipping both ways to audition our XS15se and XV15se. If this is well met we'll extend the offer to all products.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio