Need help picking, and laying out a room

[Rowdy S13]

Well after 15 or so months I think we are finally going to get a house! This is the third house that we have been in contract with, so this is the third time I have tried to figure out a plan for my system. My issue with this place is there are two rooms that I will probably set up eventually, but neither is perfect as is often the case. So I need help deciding which room to setup first, and then how best to lay everything out. So lets start with the two rooms first.

Room 1
Main floor living room
15' X 20' vaulted ceiling
Laminate floor on slab

Here are a couple pics

OK so right away you can see this room is pretty open, and has the vaulted ceilings which will make it a bit harder to fill with bass. I am thinking it would be best to lay it out similar to how they have it now, with the TV where the piano is. I don't know how wide that wall is between the entrance and the kitchen, but as you can see it doesn't seem real wide. I know I will catch some crap for this, but I would probably like to do in wall fronts, and in ceiling surrounds in this room. I would probably also do dual subs of some kind.


Room 2
Lower floor living room
20' X 11' with 8' ceiling
Laminate floor on slab

Here are a couple pics

This room is much more closed off with just the stair opening in the back corner. There is a bathroom which you can see in the last pic, as well as a bedroom to the left of that. Again, I would probably lay it out the same way it is in the pictures which means blocking the window with the TV and front speakers. Also I feel like this room is a bit too narrow for how far back the seating will be. I don't think it will work very well to move the seating forward, but I could be wrong. I say that because the couch would be pretty much in front of one of the doors on the right side of the room. This room I would do either towers or bookshelf fronts, and I am thinking in ceiling surrounds. Because the stairs are directly in the corner I don't think I can pull off a bookshelf rear. I could also probably do in wall, but it would be a pain on that outside wall.

Well that is what I should be working with soon. Like I said, I will eventually do something in both rooms but for now I can only do one to start. Which room would be better to start with, and any suggestions on layout, speakers, sub(s) etc is appreciated.


Thanks,
Sean

 

[Rowdy S13]

Whew, 2 days, 106 views and not a single response! Lets see if I can make this a little easier for everyone. Lets say that I am going to set up the lower room (room 2) first. I will be using my current receiver (Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A2010), Blu-Ray player (Panasonic DMP-BDT220), and TV (Samsung HL-S5687W), but I will be getting all new speakers, and a sub(s).

Lets start with gear, because I am usually better with hardware. After looking around all weekend, I think I am leaning toward the following set up

Front left/right Aperion Versus Grand bookshelf
Center Aperion Versus Forte center
Surround See below, but I need some help here
Sub(s) SVS SB-2000 (two)

I am not locked into anything yet, but after looking around a lot I think this is probably the best combo. Surrounds are the area I am having the most trouble with currently. I mentioned before that I think in ceilings will be my best option, but which ones is very difficult to decipher. Also after more thought I think I will move the seating forward to maybe a little less than half the distance of the room (if I can), so somewhere around 12-13' from the seats to the screen. I do not have measurements on where those two doors fall, but there is a chance I could fit in some side speakers for a 7.2 set up. Would it be OK to have the side speakers (which would likely be Aperion Versus Surround Dipole/Bipole's) a couple feet in front of the listening position?

That's all I got for now, everything is still just ideas on paper so feel free to throw out ideas or suggestions.


Thanks!
Sean

 

[rojo]

Congrats on getting a new house! It looks really nice. If I were you, I'd leave the tech out of the living room. I'm a little old fashioned though. Ask your wife what she thinks.

In the downstairs den, I vote no to in-ceiling surrounds. These NXG Pro 4.1 on wall brackets would be great for your front surrounds. I don't have any experience with dipole speakers, so I can't comment on your intentions there. I have rear surrounds rather than side surrounds, but I like them back there. Again, I'm a little old fashioned. I'm about to replace my crappy HTIB satellites with a pair of Fluance bipoles. I'll comment when they're installed and I've played with them a while. But rear surrounds are used so infrequently compared to my front mains, I don't expect any sort of night and day difference.

Since you're on a concrete slab there, you might be better off with a pair of corner-loaded PB-2000.

Edit: According to this page, if you install dipoles as side surrounds, they need to be directly in line with the couch, not in front or behind. If you're interested in rear surrounds, bipoles would be preferable.

Edit 2: Damn. I actually ordered my Fluance surrounds as refurb because they were cheaper on Friday. If I'd waited and ordered today, I could've gotten them around 20 bucks cheaper, NIB, shipped Prime. I just called Fluance (pronounced FLOO-ahns, which I didn't know till I called and heard it) but it was too late to cancel my order. Moral: If you're in the market for some bipoles and if the Amazon reviews are to be trusted, now's the time to order while they're on sale.

 

[Rowdy S13]

Thanks for the reply, and the kind words! I hope this one goes though, but so far so good!

First, let me clarify what I meant by "side surrounds" I was only referring to those in terms of a 7.2 set up, so front left/center/right, side surrounds, and rear surrounds. The same information may still apply for dipole/bipole speakers however, I really don't know. If that is the case, then I would just go to Aperion Versus Forte bookshelf speakers for the sides which has the added benefit of saving me some money For the rear surrounds (in either a 5.2 or 7.2 configuration) the problem I have with bookshelf type speakers is the stairs. I guess I could probably put them on the side walls if I can move them forward enough, which would be possible if I move the seating forward like I am now thinking. The original problem I was trying to overcome was having the couch at the back wall, which would mean that the rear speakers would be in front of the seats if I moved them forward enough to clear the stairs.

So the moral of this story is that moving the couch forward should help with layout A LOT! I still need to decide on all of the speakers though. I am slightly tempted to go with an EMPTek system which is what I originally wanted 2 houses ago, but I feel like those towers may be a bit overwhelming (size) in that space. I think in order to get the wife on board with moving the couch forward I should stick with nice bookshelf speakers. That way I am using nice, small, unimposing speakers but not giving up sound quality.

The reason I want to do something in the upstairs "living room" is because we would not be able to fit many people down stairs in comparison. My idea for the upstairs would be to use all in wall/in ceiling speakers with the gear hidden away. So you would still be able to see the speakers, but nothing taking up space, or looking out of place really. That would be the main room when people were over watching football, or an occasional movie. I would give up some sound quality because of the in wall/in ceiling speakers (not looking to spend a fortune on this set up), and seating position, but more than good enough for "casual" use. That set up would impress all of our friends/relatives EXCEPT the ones who have systems I have done for them. The downstairs room would impress EVERYONE, and put a massive smile on my face


Sean

 

[rojo]

If you're going 7.2, you ought to choose between front height and front wide, then choose between side surround and rear surround. For the front surrounds, I've read that front height offers the most dramatic difference. Between side surround and rear surround, I guess just go with whichever is easier. I don't think I'd do side and rear surround in tandem without having front height surrounds first, though.

 

[Rowdy S13]

I think we are getting something confused. I understand the front height and front "wide" as more of a 9.X or 11.X configuration. This is what I am thinking of when I am saying 7.X

I guess the proper terms may be surround, and surround back? It also seems like the 7 speakers I am referring to are the back bone of most 9.X and 11.X configurations. I have seen some charts that show a couple different layouts, but it seems like adding the front height channels is the accepted norm for a 9.X configuration. Then for 11.X it would consist of adding either left and right wide, or rear height channels to that.

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but the moral of the story is I was/am referring to a configuration like above for my room. To that effect, I went back and looked at the EMPTek options again, and I am once again sold! It is just impossible to argue those speakers based on price. Since I have MANY other hobbies, saving money on speakers (especially when I am buying them all at once) is a major selling point for me. With that said I am looking at the following configuration

Front main E5Bi bookshelf
Center E5Ci center
Surrounds E55Wi Bipole
Surround back E5Bi bookshelf
Subs SVS SB-2000 (two)

I think that should suffice for now, but as always I am open for suggestions, ideas, thoughts, and so on!


Thank you,
Sean

 

[fuzz092888]

First, I'll be honest and say that I mostly skimmed everything that was written. However, based off that skimming I'll say that you should definitely go with room 2 first. It is ok to have the side surrounds a little in front of the main LP/couch. If you're putting the rear surrounds on the rear wall and the couch is on the rear wall, make sure you angle the surrounds down.

As an alternative I'll throw out these for mains, center, and surrounds.

HTM-200 SE Home Theater Monitor

with two of these at a slight increase in price over the SVS

Rythmik F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer

or these at about $100 less

Rythmik E15 Subwoofer

There's nothing wrong with either the Aperions or the Emps. Both are good speakers that you'll probably be happy with.

As a Dark horse, with a price point more in line with the Aperion Verus Grand line you could do these. All hand made in America with proprietary drivers and crossovers. Prices are a little higher, but you're paying for a handbuilt American made product. To some it's worth it. I can more than vouch for the audio and build quality as well.

Front L/R : untitled3 or 15WC or untitled3

Side Surrounds: untitled3

Rear Surrounds: RC-2-3

Center: CC-2WC or CC-2WC

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I see this thread for the first time and to be honest I partially understand why many read it and did not reply - both room are far from ideal in terms of audio and I do agree than option #2 is a bit better (not by much).
placing and positioning speakers would be a pretty big challenge imo, but going with bookshelves is probably the way to go..
I'd personally recommend instead of EMP (they are not bad, but...) to go with HTM-200 as fuzz had mentioned above.

One change to the room I would do is to remove the mirrors on the wall and place the TV (wall mounted) in their spot. Get rid of media stand and move electronics away into some storage (under stair perhaps)

 

[Rowdy S13]

First, I'll be honest and say that I mostly skimmed everything that was written. However, based off that skimming I'll say that you should definitely go with room 2 first. It is ok to have the side surrounds a little in front of the main LP/couch. If you're putting the rear surrounds on the rear wall and the couch is on the rear wall, make sure you angle the surrounds down. As an alternative I'll throw out these for mains, center, and surrounds. HTM-200 SE Home Theater Monitor with two of these at a slight increase in price over the SVS Rythmik F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer or these at about $100 less Rythmik E15 Subwoofer There's nothing wrong with either the Aperions or the Emps. Both are good speakers that you'll probably be happy with. As a Dark horse, with a price point more in line with the Aperion Verus Grand line you could do these. All hand made in America with proprietary drivers and crossovers. Prices are a little higher, but you're paying for a handbuilt American made product. To some it's worth it. I can more than vouch for the audio and build quality as well. Front L/R : untitled3 or 15WC or untitled3 Side Surrounds: untitled3 Rear Surrounds: RC-2-3 Center: CC-2WC or CC-2WC

No problem skimming, you seem to have gotten the gist of it all, plus I know I can be a bit long winded (or whatever the equivalent is for typing). Room two seems to be the plan for now, so we are on the same track there. After looking some more I don't think that I will need to position the surrounds in front of the seating. I am pretty sure I should have room above the doors, and/or that side window for most speakers I have been looking at. That still depends on where the couch ends up, and what speakers I use, but its good to know that its not the end of the world to place them a bit forward. I don't THINK I am going to put the couch on the rear wall, but we will see what the wife has to say about it. I spent some time explaining to her yesterday that having the couch forward would help all of my issues with the room in some way or another. Also that having the couch forward means we don't need as large of a screen Moving on to speakers, the never ending topic! I have looked at the Ascend Accoustic HTM-200's before but I am a bit on the fence about them. I am sure they will sound great, and probably better than the EMPTek's but they are far from the best looking option. Usually nice looking speakers come at a big premium (Sierra 1's). I will have to heavily consider them though as I feel they may be better sound quality, and actually come up cheaper for a complete set. One question there is would you be recommending 3 pairs of the HTM-200 SE's for front main, surround, and surround back, with 1 HTM-200 SE Center? I will have to look into the other speakers you mention, but I do probably want to steer clear of towers for this room. As for the subs, I am pretty set on the SVS's because I am a HUGE fanboy who has been lusting after anything SVS for years now. I do also like the small footprint of the SB-2000's at just 14.2" cubed they are an easier sell on the wife

I see this thread for the first time and to be honest I partially understand why many read it and did not reply - both room are far from ideal in terms of audio and I do agree than option #2 is a bit better (not by much). placing and positioning speakers would be a pretty big challenge imo, but going with bookshelves is probably the way to go.. I'd personally recommend instead of EMP (they are not bad, but...) to go with HTM-200 as fuzz had mentioned above. One change to the room I would do is to remove the mirrors on the wall and place the TV (wall mounted) in their spot. Get rid of media stand and move electronics away into some storage (under stair perhaps)

Fully understandable, and that is why I can here for help! Speaker placement being the biggest challenge, I will for sure model the room to get better help with that (and possibly some acoustic treatments), but I cant really do that until we close probably. For now I am just trying to get a good general handle on ideas. I just want to have some kind of plan to try and implement once we move in. As I said in my response to Fuzz, I am going to look into the Ascend's more. The overall lower cost (they knock off a bunch for a complete package), and the reputation of Ascend is helping things go that way. Lets get to the layout, since you are the first one to dive into it! I had thought about doing that, because it would really help the room feel bigger when you come into it from upstairs. My problem with that layout is the positioning of that front left speaker. What do you suggest for this little hurdle, because honestly I would like to figure out a good way to set the room up like that. Hiding the electronics and the media was always going to happen. I didn't want to add more dribble to this thread, so I didn't mention it. The third bedroom which is the one attached to this room, is currently set up like an office/library with shelving covering two of the walls. That was going to be storage for my media since the wife and I both use kindles and don't own almost any books. Plus the wife hates my current DVD rack with a passion. I have not quite decided where I am going to hide the gear yet, but there are a few options. Running wire is the easy part of all of this since my best friend is an electrician Thank you guys for the reply's, keep em coming! Sean

 

[Rowdy S13]

Sorry in advance for the above post. The spacing got screwed up, and I couldn't edit it, it was just thinking forever and wouldn't open the window.

Sean

 

[rojo]

I think we are getting something confused. I understand the front height and front "wide" as more of a 9.X or 11.X configuration.

Yeah, it's tricky. I think the preference has more to do with the encoding of the content you're playing than anything. Dolby Pro Logic IIz uses front height channels, for example. DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 uses surround LR and surround back. And in retrospect, the reason I was pushing front height was because my Marantz receiver has a virtual surround mode called Audyssey DSX, which takes advantage of front height. It now occurs to me that your Aventage receiver might not offer the same surround modes as my Marantz. I'm sorry about that Sean.

My problem with that layout is the positioning of that front left speaker. What do you suggest for this little hurdle, because honestly I would like to figure out a good way to set the room up like that.

What would you think about catty-cornering the TV on the mirror wall / window corner? There'd be several advantages -- easier placement of the left main speaker, avoidance of undesirable room reflections without having to consciously add treatments, cornering the couch on the opposite wall would automatically move it closer to the TV, there'd be less of a battle trying to figure out where to mount your surrounds I think, and light reflections from the windows off the TV would bounce away from the seating area. In theory, anyway. Such a configuration might make running dual subs more difficult unless you let them double as speaker stands, but you might even try a single sub behind the couch and see how you like it.

 

[fuzz092888]

One question there is would you be recommending 3 pairs of the HTM-200 SE's for front main, surround, and surround back, with 1 HTM-200 SE Center?

Yes. You can't get a better timbre match than to have matching speakers all around.

I will have to look into the other speakers you mention, but I do probably want to steer clear of towers for this room.

Only one pair are towers and the only reason I listed those is because they're as big or smaller than a pair of bookshelves on stands. I would go with the Source Tech speakers over the Emps and probably the Aperions. The Ascends would be tempting, just because you could go full timbre matched, but in the end I'd still probably pick the Source Tech.

 

[Rowdy S13]

No worries man, I appreciate the responses! My receiver can do 9.2 (I think possibly 11.2 with external amp), and does have the ability to do front height for sure. I am not 100% positive if it does this with Audyssey DSX or some other method, but I know it can do front heights at a minimum. Like I said previously it seems like in most 9.X systems I would still have the same base 7 speakers with the addition of the front height channels. I have heard good things about the front height channels, so I would not rule it out completely but I will say it is likely something I would do later.


Sean

 

[fuzz092888]

No worries man, I appreciate the responses! My receiver can do 9.2 (I think possibly 11.2 with external amp), and does have the ability to do front height for sure. I am not 100% positive if it does this with Audyssey DSX or some other method, but I know it can do front heights at a minimum. Like I said previously it seems like in most 9.X systems I would still have the same base 7 speakers with the addition of the front height channels. I have heard good things about the front height channels, so I would not rule it out completely but I will say it is likely something I would do later.


Sean

I wouldn't recommend height or width channels until you've gotten the side surrounds and rear surrounds shored up first.

 

[rojo]

I wouldn't either... now.

 

[fuzz092888]

I wouldn't either... now.

Even after, they're of questionable value.

 

[rojo]

I regard anything beyond 5.1 like blades on a Gillette razor, if I'm honest.

 

[fuzz092888]

I regard anything beyond 5.1 like blades on a Gillette razor, if I'm honest.

Can't say I agree with that either, but to each his own

 

[rojo]

Hey fuzz, don't read any alternate intentions into this question, as I'm looking to learn something and this is seems as good a place to ask as any. Do you agree with the advice offered by Polk about the appropriate placements of bipole and dipole surrounds, or do you reckon it's OK to use bipole or direct-facing bookshelfs as side surrounds?

 

[Rowdy S13]

LOL, I like the razor reference I could always go 5.1 still, and maybe step up the speakers (at least the fronts) but 7.2 sounds like it would be awesome! Hell I haven't even had a 5.1 set up in YEARS, so anything at this point sounds pretty awesome!

Lets argue speakers for a while shall we! Lets say the budget is MAX $1,500 for all of the speakers not including the subs. What would be your selection for this room with that budget. Must be at least 5.X but can go all the way to 11 if you want Ready, GO!


Sean