X4000 LFE+Main w/ Direct

[herbu]

An earlier discussion seemed to conclude if you set all speakers to "small", there is no difference or benefit setting your sub to "LFE+Main" vs "LFE".

Reading thru the Denon X4000 manual about "Direct" mode, I think I found where any signal will only be sent to your sub in Direct mode if you have "LFE+Main" selected. (Page 234, "Sound modes and channel output" in the Appendix.)

Does that mean you miss everything below 80Hz if you use Direct mode, with speakers set to Small, Crossovers set at 80Hz, and "LFE" selected for the sub? When I experiment in Direct mode by changing sub setting, it does indeed sound like the sub plays nothing when set to "LFE", but does play when set to "LFE+Main".

If that's the case, it would seem beneficial to use "LFE+Main" instead of "LFE", even if you set all speakers to "Small". Right?

Could that be partly why some people say their Direct mode sounds shallow and tinny?

 

[ReUpRo]

Direct is can be used for multichannel signals with LFE. No bass management is applied, so all channels get full range signal and sub plays LFE.

If your source is digital with stereo recording being played, there is marginal difference between Direct and Pure Direct.

Pure Direct is best used for analog stereo sources since this mode turns off unused audio signal processing circuits (including, bass management, Audyssey or Graphic Eq) and additional unused circuits, like video processing circuits and the VFD display. This is mode yields best measurements for the preamp section.

I believe the crossover behavior is the same in both cases. All speakers play full range based on incoming signal, sub only plays LFE.

 

[ReUpRo]

When I experiment in Direct mode by changing sub setting, it does indeed sound like the sub plays nothing when set to "LFE", but does play when set to "LFE+Main".

Did you do this test with stereo or multichannel tracks? I bet on a multifaced track the sub will play since there will be LFE content.

If you tested with 2.0 track, you should test the Subwoofer to 'No'. This will force LR to Large. IMO, this is the correct seeing for 2.0 signal.

In going to play with the X4000 settings and report back over the weekend.

 

[herbu]

Did you do this test with stereo or multichannel tracks?

I did my test w/ Direct 2-channel music.
The manual seems to say the sub gets a signal in every case EXCEPT Direct Stereo, and then ONLY if you set "LFE+Main". So in the case of Direct Stereo music, the sub gets nothing, (since there is no LFE). So if your crossovers are set at 80Hz, I think you simply lose everything below 80Hz. Right?

I may be the exception, but the only time I use Direct is sometimes for stereo music. And in that case, both my experiment and the manual seem to indicate I am losing bass with an "LFE" setting. It is why I set my sub back to "LFE+Main".

In reading about Bass Management, I see some people say to set your AVR for "LFE", only and always. (This means the sub gets LFE and everything below your crossover of all "Small" speakers.) To me it seems "LFE+Main" is a better setting IF you have all speakers set to Small. This setting changes nothing for TV, Movies, normal Stereo, (you still get everything below your crossovers), but DOES have a benefit for Direct Stereo. At least in the case of the X4000. I don't know about others.

So am I missing something?

 

[herbu]

If you tested with 2.0 track, you should test the Subwoofer to 'No'. This will force LR to Large. IMO, this is the correct seeing for 2.0 signal.

But that means everytime you want to listen to Direct Stereo, you have to go into Setting and make a change. Again, IF you set all speakers to Small anyway, the "LFE+Main" setting changes nothing for all modes that are not Direct Stereo, but keeps the bass in Direct Stereo without having to change any settings... I think.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

An earlier discussion seemed to conclude if you set all speakers to "small", there is no difference or benefit setting your sub to "LFE+Main" vs "LFE".

Reading thru the Denon X4000 manual about "Direct" mode, I think I found where any signal will only be sent to your sub in Direct mode if you have "LFE+Main" selected. (Page 234, "Sound modes and channel output" in the Appendix.)

Does that mean you miss everything below 80Hz if you use Direct mode, with speakers set to Small, Crossovers set at 80Hz, and "LFE" selected for the sub? When I experiment in Direct mode by changing sub setting, it does indeed sound like the sub plays nothing when set to "LFE", but does play when set to "LFE+Main".

If that's the case, it would seem beneficial to use "LFE+Main" instead of "LFE", even if you set all speakers to "Small". Right?

Could that be partly why some people say their Direct mode sounds shallow and tinny?

If you want subwoofer (LFE) output in Pure Direct and Direct mode, you HAVE to use the LFE + Main setting regardless of your speaker size configuration.

When you are in PD/D mode, it is assumed your speakers are LARGE FULL RANGE no matter what speaker size configuration you set.

 

[ReUpRo]

Does that mean you miss everything below 80Hz if you use Direct mode, with speakers set to Small, Crossovers set at 80Hz, and "LFE" selected for the sub? When I experiment in Direct mode by changing sub setting, it does indeed sound like the sub plays nothing when set to "LFE", but does play when set to "LFE+Main".

Couldn't wait. Walked home over lunch and, I just confirmed this behavior. With LR set to "Small', crossover at 80Hz, Subwoofer Mode set to 'LFE', when playing 2.0 source, I get no bass from the sub. I'm 100% sure the LR are not playing full range, meaning anything below 80Hz is roiled off.

If that's the case, it would seem beneficial to use "LFE+Main" instead of "LFE", even if you set all speakers to "Small". Right?

According to the poorly worded on screen instructions,
LFE: Plays low range and LFE signals of channels set to "Small". (Better stated as, Plays LFE and low range signals of all channels set to "Small".)
LFE+Main: Plays low range and LFE signals of all channels. (Better stated as, Plays LFE and low range signals for all channels.)

For anyone with "Small" speakers all around, the setting must stay 'LFE+Main'. Now that I think of it, if the receiver detects that no speaker is set to 'Large', it should just force 'LFE+Main'.

The 'LFE' option only makes sense for those with a mix of full range and not full range speakers. It will allow extremely flexible bass management.

In a theoretical situation one could perversely go, Subwoofer Mode: LFE,
L: Large, Full Range
C: Small, Crossed at 50Hz
R: Large, Full Range
SL: Large, Full Range
SR: Large, Full Range
SBL: Small, Crossed at 100Hz
SBR: Small, Crossed at 100Hz

 

[pg_rider]

With LR set to "Small', crossover at 80Hz, Subwoofer Mode set to 'LFE', when playing 2.0 source, I get no bass from the sub. I'm 100% sure the LR are not playing full range, meaning anything below 80Hz is roiled off.

Actually that's not correct. With 2-channel music, speakers set to Small, and Direct Mode engaged your left and right main speakers are definitely getting the full range signal (unless your receiver is flat out defective). Direct Mode ignores whether the mains are set to Small or Large.

Now, if you're used to hearing music with the sub enabled (like in Stereo Mode), then you may just be THINKING there's reduced bass in Direct Mode simply because you're used to fuller bass coming from the sub. This effect is even more pronounced if you have Dynamic EQ engaged.

What makes you "100 sure"?

 

[ReUpRo]

What makes you "100 sure"?

I used to monitors in 2.0 for a few months before adding the sub and the bass is not as much as I recall. So let's change that to, I'm almost 100% sure.

I'll break out the measurement rig this weekend and take some readings. More to follow...

 

[herbu]

When you are in PD/D mode, it is assumed your speakers are LARGE FULL RANGE no matter what speaker size configuration you set.

Ahhh... OK. So the only bass actually missing are the frequencies below the point your L/R speakers can accurately reproduce. In my case, the Verus Grand Towers are (+/- 3dB) 45-20,000 Hz -- (+/- 6dB) 35-22,000 Hz. So below about 45Hz will be missing or somewhat attenuated.

Now it seems there is a bit of a choice to be made if you use Direct.
Choice 1: "LFE" setting and miss the lowest frequencies, (~20-45Hz).
Choice 2: "LFE+Main" and get the lowest frequencies, but double the output of frequencies between ~45Hz and 120Hz subwoofer crossover... since those frequencies will be sent to both the Mains and the sub.

Right?

I wonder how much music uses 20-45Hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Choice 2: "LFE+Main" and get the lowest frequencies, but double the output of frequencies between ~45Hz and 120Hz subwoofer crossover... since those frequencies will be sent to both the Mains and the sub.

Right?

Think of it like having multiple subs. Does having 4 subs mean you are getting quadruple bass?

 

[herbu]

Think of it like having multiple subs. Does having 4 subs mean you are getting quadruple bass?

Thanks! I think I like multiple subs.

 

[PENG]

Ahhh... OK. So the only bass actually missing are the frequencies below the point your L/R speakers can accurately reproduce. In my case, the Verus Grand Towers are (+/- 3dB) 45-20,000 Hz -- (+/- 6dB) 35-22,000 Hz. So below about 45Hz will be missing or somewhat attenuated.

Now it seems there is a bit of a choice to be made if you use Direct.
Choice 1: "LFE" setting and miss the lowest frequencies, (~20-45Hz).
Choice 2: "LFE+Main" and get the lowest frequencies, but double the output of frequencies between ~45Hz and 120Hz subwoofer crossover... since those frequencies will be sent to both the Mains and the sub.

Right?

Not quite, even in pure direct, you can still select LFE+Main, though either way that is not a good idea because the bass won't be managed, unless you use a separate sub and have calibrated that sub manually or automatically using the REQ of the sub (the higher end one presumably).

I wonder how much music uses 20-45Hz.

[/QUOTE]

Lots.

 

[RichB]

A Frequencies chart of musical instruments.

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network

To quote Peng says: Lots

Keep in mind that even if your speaker is rated to 40 Hz that may be at 1 watt and which might be something like 87 DB.
Music is dynamic and a given speaker, A bookshelf for example, will not produce 100 DB at 40 Hz even at 3 feet.
Of course, your room size and preferences also come into play, Hard Rock, Pipe-organs, or chamber music (arghhh, I hate chamber music ).

- Rich