Yamaha or Denon for build quality and audio quality

[3db]

If these circuits result in peak limiting, then the Yamaha's might be at a disadvantage.

- Rich

I disagree. The all channels driven test is really an invalid test as no source I know off has all channels driven full spectrum with the same signal level across all of them. Its an irrelevant test and you willl not stumble across this during and of the DVDs/BluRays you are watching.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I disagree. The all channels driven test is really an invalid test as no source I know off has all channels driven full spectrum with the same signal level across all of them. Its an irrelevant test and you willl not stumble across this during and of the DVDs/BluRays you are watching.

The only time I see All-Channel-Driven is for 7Ch Stereo mode & 5Ch Stereo mode.

 

[3db]

The only time I see All-Channel-Driven is for 7Ch Stereo mode & 5Ch Stereo mode.

I've used it myself but its still not a relevant test. I find it produces a really artificial soundstage. I'm a deeply rooted strict 2 channel stereo kind of guy when it comes to listening to music.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've used it myself but its still not a relevant test. I find it produces a really artificial soundstage. I'm a deeply rooted strict 2 channel stereo kind of guy when it comes to listening to music.

We're not talking about sound quality. I never use MCH Stereo modes either. But just because we don't use it doesn't make it irrelevant. Some people do use it.

We are just talking about a scenario where we would see all channels driven.

I know people who actually use 7Ch stereo mode for parties, and that's when the AVR shuts down in protection mode. Of course, I tell them NOT to use 7Ch Stereo.

 

[M Code]

I disagree. The all channels driven test is really an invalid test as no source I know off has all channels driven full spectrum with the same signal level across all of them. Its an irrelevant test and you willl not stumble across this during and of the DVDs/BluRays you are watching.

The merits of an all channels driven spec can be debated..
To me the crucial point is that it simply indicates how the power supply is designed, loosely regulated for higher peak power or titely regulated. The majority of AVRs today have a loose power supply as it is less expensive to build.. And probably serves the market adequately as most users have subwoofer/satellite sytems so extreme low frequency capability is not required as it is handled by a subwoofer. However check out the better component power amplifiers, and one will find they typically use a titley regulated power supply.

Just my $0.05...

 

[3db]

We're not talking about sound quality. I never use MCH Stereo modes either. But just because we don't use it doesn't make it irrelevant. Some people do use it.

We are just talking about a scenario where we would see all channels driven.

I know people who actually use 7Ch stereo mode for parties, and that's when the AVR shuts down in protection mode. Of course, I tell them NOT to use 7Ch Stereo.

Let me rephrase this.... Would the fact that a receiver cannot run the crappy multichannel stereo mode at full power prevent you from buying an AVR? BTW.. I've cranked my RX-V1800 in multichannel mode to 90+db without fail... just to see if I could get it to trip. My ears tripped but the receiver was still going strong.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Let me rephrase this.... Would the fact that a receiver cannot run the crappy multichannel stereo mode at full power prevent you from buying an AVR? BTW.. I've cranked my RX-V1800 in multichannel mode to 90+db without fail... just to see if I could get it to trip. My ears tripped but the receiver was still going strong.

Not I. I never use MCH Stereo. But are we talking about just you and me or about the everyone in general?

1. Doesn't everyone feel that MCH stereo is "crappy"? No. Some people prefer it over 2Ch.
2. Does 7Ch Stereo utilize all 7Ch driven? Yes.
3. Will some situations (longer distance listening positions, louder environment, extended playing time) require more power than 33WPC x 7Ch? Yes.

If the situation requires 60WPC x 7Ch and the AVR goes into protection mode @ 30WPC x 7Ch, it is significant for that situation.

 

[billy p]

Not I. I never use MCH Stereo. But are we talking about just you and me or about the everyone in general?

1. Doesn't everyone feel that MCH stereo is "crappy"? No. Some people prefer it over 2Ch.
2. Does 7Ch Stereo utilize all 7Ch driven? Yes.
3. Will some situations (longer distance listening positions, louder environment, extended playing time) require more power than 33WPC x 7Ch? Yes.

If the situation requires 60WPC x 7Ch and the AVR goes into protection mode @ 30WPC x 7Ch, it is significant for that situation.

I don't necessarily used 7 ch stereo but it comes in handy for speaker demo situations. Most like to hear a mono signal with some power in order to gauge speaker or the avr for that matter. Everything has a purpose...besides... I thought, I didn't need sub eq until I had it with my recent AVR its a must have now, for HT....imho.

 

[3db]

The merits of an all channels driven spec can be debated..
To me the crucial point is that it simply indicates how the power supply is designed, loosely regulated for higher peak power or titely regulated. The majority of AVRs today have a loose power supply as it is less expensive to build.. And probably serves the market adequately as most users have subwoofer/satellite sytems so extreme low frequency capability is not required as it is handled by a subwoofer. However check out the better component power amplifiers, and one will find they typically use a titley regulated power supply.

Just my $0.05...

Regulated to me means how close the power supply can maintain it's rated output voltage during full load operation. I'm too lazy type in the correct formula for power supply regulation.

 

[PENG]

IMHO:

1) ACD numbers are not important for most people but could be for some who need it for demo or for some reason they like to listen in 5/7 Ch Stereo mode.
2) Yamaha units are likely more aggressive in their protective circuit but also likely to have a little weaker power supply than equivalent Denon and Onkyo models.
3) Yamaha units are likely more reliable base on internet hearsay, but insider like M Code apparently knows it as a matter of fact.
4) Yamaha seems to spend more $ on the amp section to maximize 2Ch performance.
5) NAD, HK (only the older models), tend to spend their budget more on the power supply for better ACD output that invariably (well except for the NADs) would result in not so impressive 1, 2Ch outputs.
6) Denon (33XX, X4000 and up models) and Anthem seems to be taking a more balanced approach, such that their 1,2 channel outputs are still almost as good as equivalent Yamaha models but do better in 5/7 channel outputs.

That means I can agree to point(s) made by 3 dB, ADTG, Billy and even M Code.

 

[PENG]

Regulated to me means how close the power supply can maintain it's rated output voltage during full load operation. I'm too lazy type in the correct formula for power supply regulation.

I agree, I think MC might have used the wrong adjective. One of the most basic regulated output involve only the correct use of Zener diodes, one can google it to understand the basic/simple concept for "regulated". I would think that most high end amps do not use regulated power supply and I am too lazy to list the reasons so don't ask, just do your own research if any one is interested. I would just say that unless it is done in certain way, expensive way, it does not improved things and probably make things worse.

 

[rnatalli]

What a debate this has sparked. In the sub $1k, I would take Denon over Yamaha for the factors I listed earlier. Power certainly wouldn't be my deciding factor, but it of course never hurts to have more. As others have mentioned, it does become a factor during all channel stereo or during difficult passages of a movie. Reliability also wouldn't be a major factor for me personally as I wouldn't expect to have one of these receivers past a few years; above $1K, reliability becomes more important to me.

 

[3db]

IMHO:

1) ACD numbers are not important for most people but could be for some who need it for demo or for some reason they like to listen in 5/7 Ch Stereo mode.
2) Yamaha units are likely more aggressive in their protective circuit but also likely to have a little weaker power supply than equivalent Denon and Onkyo models.
3) Yamaha units are likely more reliable base on internet hearsay, but insider like M Code apparently knows it as a matter of fact.
4) Yamaha seems to spend more $ on the amp section to maximize 2Ch performance.
5) NAD, HK (only the older models), tend to spend their budget more on the power supply for better ACD output that invariably (well except for the NADs) would result in not so impressive 1, 2Ch outputs.
6) Denon (33XX, X4000 and up models) and Anthem seems to be taking a more balanced approach, such that their 1,2 channel outputs are still almost as good as equivalent Yamaha models but do better in 5/7 channel outputs.

That means I can agree to point(s) made by 3 dB, ADTG, Billy and even M Code.

Of course you know I'm going to disagree with items 2and 6. How does one know if the power supply sections are actually weaker when the protection circuits come into play prematurely?

 

[3db]

What a debate this has sparked. In the sub $1k, I would take Denon over Yamaha for the factors I listed earlier. Power certainly wouldn't be my deciding factor, but it of course never hurts to have more. As others have mentioned, it does become a factor during all channel stereo or during difficult passages of a movie. Reliability also wouldn't be a major factor for me personally as I wouldn't expect to have one of these receivers past a few years; above $1K, reliability becomes more important to me.

Yeah!!! Its all your fault.!!!

 

[M Code]

I agree, I think MC might have used the wrong adjective. One of the most basic regulated output involve only the correct use of Zener diodes, one can google it to understand the basic/simple concept for "regulated". I would think that most high end amps do not use regulated power supply and I am too lazy to list the reasons so don't ask, just do your own research if any one is interested. I would just say that unless it is done in certain way, expensive way, it does not improved things and probably make things worse.

Lets kleer the air about AVRs (and amplifiers) power supplies..
Firstly, the most expensive single component in an AVR (an amplifier) is the power transformer. So here is where the brands have different design strategies depending upon their price, performance and market targets. In the last few years, the primary AVRs brand have focused on aggressive price points, more HDMI inputs, wireless fluff, and power output with 2 channels driven. Since we have done product development/sourcing of AVRs for certain major brands for many, many years we have some insight here...

The (2) key components are the transformer itself and the power supply capacitors. 1 brand may specifiy a power transformer with thinner guage wires windings so that it is still capable of max peak power but will saturate sooner, another brand can specify heavier guage windings so the transformer will maintain its output voltage longer before heating up and saturating while being capable of higher sustained votage and current.. The 2nd key component is that of storage capacitors, simply stated how much capacity and voltage specs are they rated @. Higher capacity simply means they will retain their charge longer under high voltage and current demands.

We have actual BOMs and real world product examples of both, the $ cost differences between the (2) approachs can be up 100% just for the subject power supply components of the transformer and capacitors.

Just my $0.05...

 

[Pyrrho]

The only time I see All-Channel-Driven is for 7Ch Stereo mode & 5Ch Stereo mode.

It is not applicable even then. The All Channels Driven test is continuous output, whereas with music, it is dynamic, constantly changing. So the All Channels Driven test is NEVER representative of real use. It would only be relevant playing test tones and such.

 

[3db]

It is not applicable even then. The All Channels Driven test is continuous output, whereas with music, it is dynamic, constantly changing. So the All Channels Driven test is NEVER representative of real use. It would only be relevant playing test tones and such.

Or white noise

 

[RichB]

Or white noise

It may be a good approximation of some recorded music with DR1 ratings.
Sort of multi-frequency white noise.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

Lets kleer the air about AVRs (and amplifiers) power supplies..
Firstly, the most expensive single component in an AVR (an amplifier) is the power transformer. So here is where the brands have different design strategies depending upon their price, performance and market targets. In the last few years, the primary AVRs brand have focused on aggressive price points, more HDMI inputs, wireless fluff, and power output with 2 channels driven. Since we have done product development/sourcing of AVRs for certain major brands for many, many years we have some insight here...

The (2) key components are the transformer itself and the power supply capacitors. 1 brand may specifiy a power transformer with thinner guage wires windings so that it is still capable of max peak power but will saturate sooner, another brand can specify heavier guage windings so the transformer will maintain its output voltage longer before heating up and saturating while being capable of higher sustained votage and current.. The 2nd key component is that of storage capacitors, simply stated how much capacity and voltage specs are they rated @. Higher capacity simply means they will retain their charge longer under high voltage and current demands.

And let me clear a couple of points about transformer theory and operation characteristics as you stated the "(2) key components" incorrectly. The facts are:

1) Transformer saturation is more to do with the core design, material used, and its construction, not the winding gauge, though the winding gauge will of course affect overall performance. If anything, everything else being equal, smaller guage means higher resistance, less current capacity, higher voltage drop and therefore would less likely result in saturation. Again, that is if everything else being equal, i.e. same core material, design and construction. In the real world obviously heavier gauge winding will be matched with better quality core.

2) Thinner gauge wires means higher resistance, higher voltage drop, lower current carrying capacity, higher "copper loss (I²R).

3) Poor transformer core design and construction means higher iron losses due mainly to hysteresis and eddy currents and poor core design/construction would also result in reaching the saturation point sooner as the input voltage increases to match the load demand rise. There are also external factors such as the quality (e.g. harmonic contents) of the incoming power supply, that could also lead to earlier core saturation.

We have actual BOMs and real world product examples of both, the $ cost differences between the (2) approachs can be up 100% just for the subject power supply components of the transformer and capacitors.

Just my $0.05...

As I mentioned, you seem to be an insider in this business so I'll take your words that you have the actual BOM, so no argument here. It would be great if you could confirm the VA ratings of the transformers and the associated capacitors specs (uF and voltage rating) for the RX-A3030 and the AVR-4520 CI. That would tell us which one has a stronger power supply but you probably are not supposed to publicize such information if they are considered proprietary and/or confidential.

 

[PENG]

Of course you know I'm going to disagree with items 2and 6. How does one know if the power supply sections are actually weaker when the protection circuits come into play prematurely?

Nothing really to disagree about my friend, it is just conjecture on my part and that's why I used words like "seems", "likely". The basis of my conjecture are HTM and HCC past bench test results and the manufacturers specified power consumption figures below:

Yamaha RX-A3030 power consumption:

490W/620VA

Denon AVR-4520

780W

Denon AVR-4308

8.1A/120V = 972VA

Onkyo 5010

12.4A/120V

Those are incomplete information, for example, we do not know if all 3 of them follow the same standard in specifying power consumption.

So your guess is as good or better as mine, or maybe I shouldn't have guessed at all.