The Dolby Atmos Home Theater Paradox

[TLS Guy]

You don't get it, it doesn't have as much to do with your speakers. The only change that would need to be made is to switch to monopole surrounds if you have dipoles/bipoles surrounds. Atmos is a new way of creating sound mixes, it is not adding a bunch more speakers.

It's a new way of reproducing them also. You don't need to record individual tracks, but have a track with the geometric coordinates in a 3D matrix, to determine which speakers play to locate a sound anywhere within the space. To really be effective it does take a lot of speakers, and the speaker layout must support a 3D matrix configuration. It was all explained in a paper in the AES journal some time ago. To me the technology does not lend itself easily to the home environment.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm happy to give it a shot. Just tell me how many speakers I need and I can tell you if it works in a small room home environment

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm happy to give it a shot. Just tell me how many speakers I need and I can tell you if it works in a small room home environment

I think this is all vapor ware at the moment. Dolby say they have no timetable for home Dolby Atmos.

My guess is that plans will be scrapped, or some a abortion will be concocted that will be a shadow of the real thing. To be any use it will need a custom room, and a larger room than average. I think they will quickly find that the number of speakers and therefore amplifiers will vary with the size of the room. I would suspect that 16 to 20 speakers will actually be required for a home theater of any size, and it could well be more to do it properly. I don't see this as anything that would work well in a receiver, but only for really expensive systems with a pre/pro with the right technology and external amps.

I suspect of they are ethical about this, they will realize this is a billionaires toy and not for the rest of us grunts. In other words, the only home theaters that have this will be very large ones and they will have the full complement of 64 speakers and amps.

So I would not get out the saws for a while Fuzz.

 

[fuzz092888]

I think this is all vapor ware at the moment. Dolby say they have no timetable for home Dolby Atmos.

My guess is that plans will be scrapped, or some a abortion will be concocted that will be a shadow of the real thing. To be any use it will need a custom room, and a larger room than average. I think they will quickly find that the number of speakers and therefore amplifiers will vary with the size of the room. I would suspect that 16 to 20 speakers will actually be required for a home theater of any size, and it could well be more to do it properly. I don't see this as anything that would work well in a receiver, but only for really expensive systems with a pre/pro with the right technology and external amps.

I suspect of they are ethical about this, they will realize this is a billionaires toy and not for the rest of us grunts. In other words, the only home theaters that have this will be very large ones and they will have the full complement of 64 speakers and amps.

So I would not get out the saws for a while Fuzz.

That was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm largely out of space for anymore speakers after the newest subwoofer addition is built and put in place.

 

[TLS Guy]

That was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm largely out of space for anymore speakers after the newest subwoofer addition is built and put in place.

I just had to make you say it. Everyone else will be out of space also!

I also think that Dolby Atmos works because it is in a big space, and no one can get close to any one speaker. With this system if you localize to a speaker the effect will go. And having said that it applies to 7.1 also. The speakers must be good enough so that there is never localization to a speaker in any position. That is why I fervently disagree that only the fronts have to be decent speakers. To make 7.1 or 5.1 work effectively, ALL speakers have to be very good capable speakers.

 

[fuzz092888]

I just had to make you say it. Everyone else will be out of space also!

I also think that Dolby Atmos works because it is in a big space, and no one can get close to any one speaker. With this system if you localize to a speaker the effect will go. And having said that it applies to 7.1 also. The speakers must be good enough so that there is never localization to a speaker in any position. That is why I fervently disagree that only the fronts have to be decent speakers. To make 7.1 or 5.1 work effectively, ALL speakers have to be very good capable speakers.

I agree with that as well. Personally I've found that great speakers all around makes for an almost night and day experience with demanding tracks and movies at near reference level playback. I think that for people who don't listen all that loudly, the surround channels can get lost in the ambient noise which is one of the reasons they don't find them all that important.

 

[Ryan45872]

Why not?

I would give it a try. Nothing wrong with new tech. I don't know why you wouldn't want it. If you can't use it doesn't mean you wouldn't down the road. Most all receivers and processors offer different sound fields so if you can't use it then don't. Guess I am just saying, bring it to the table and see what happens.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would give it a try. Nothing wrong with new tech. I don't know why you wouldn't want it. If you can't use it doesn't mean you wouldn't down the road. Most all receivers and processors offer different sound fields so if you can't use it then don't. Guess I am just saying, bring it to the table and see what happens.

This isn't something like Dolby plx or neo THX. This is something radically different. If someone puts enough amps required to do this in a receiver, run away from it fast!

 

[Adam]

I think it's cool and hope something like this comes to market. Seems like every time there's word that someone will add speakers, some people are for it and some are against it. "Hook up my TV to my stereo? Why would I do that?" "Dolby Pro-Logic? Hooking my TV up to my stereo is just fine." "Dolby Digital? I already have five speakers with Pro-Logic." "7.1?! I don't need that, I already have 5.1." And so on.

I eagerly anticipated Dolby Digital back in the 90s, and it really was a big jump forward to me from Pro-Logic. The discrete full-range surrounds really added to the experience. If Atmos will utilize the speakers even better, then I'm all for it.

 

[cutedaddy]

Less is still more

If existing technologies would be better implemented we'd all be up for huge improvements in SQ without the need for any new inventions. More effective room treatment, more effective sound processing (such as virtual surround from two-channel stereo) or even more effective placement of just two stereo speakers, in most listening rooms, will yield enormous improvements, while spending less than a hundred dollars or sometimes even nothing but a couple of hours of careful attention.
In other words, spend your bucks where they're most effective first, before upgrading your setup with costly A/V receivers, speakers and square feet of real estate.
On the other hand, we've come a long way since the needle-fed horn leaning on a rotating, grooved disc. Innovations are paramount for improving technology in the long run. However, these innovations often are a process of trial and error. So i, for one, will await the errors to be exposed by early adopters and (possibly) upgrade my system after the dust has settled.
So much is possible already, that most components in your audio chain cannot be improved upon but by a mere 0,1% or less. The only part of everyone's setup where improvement potentially ranges into the 10, 20 and 30%, is in the speaker cabinets and in the listening room characteristics. So that's the place to look, when seeking effective improvements while avoiding huge investments.

 

[W_Harding]

Dolby Atmos home theater sounds very interesting to me. Since it has not yet arrived, it is unclear as to how it will be implemented. Will it require 5.1 or more speakers? If so, how many? Where will the additional speakers be best situated? I look forward to hearing more about it and if practical, implementing it in my system.

 

[TLS Guy]

Dolby Atmos home theater sounds very interesting to me. Since it has not yet arrived, it is unclear as to how it will be implemented. Will it require 5.1 or more speakers? If so, how many? Where will the additional speakers be best situated? I look forward to hearing more about it and if practical, implementing it in my system.

Read the thread before you post!

 

[Ryan45872]

I understand that its a different animal. But all receivers offer the standard sound fields. So who cares, let us see what they can do. If it don't work then it will die on its own.

 

[FilmMixer]

I also keep seeing discreet channels mentioned, my understanding of Atmos is that it doesn't rely on channels at all, it treats sound in movies the same way video games treat objects. they have a location in space and the system calculates in real time knowing the position of your speakers how to recreate that sound as accurately as possible from your speakers in your space. To do this it has to know the orientation and location of all of your speakers.

Atmos is a hybrid of both channel based audio along with objects.

The first 10 channels of the ATMOS mix are a 9.1 bed, which is a 7.1 + 2 overhead arrays (OH L and R.)

There are then an additional 118 object audio streams available to pan around the room individually. You can change the size of any given object to come from a single point or spread it out to be reproduced over a wider space.

In addition, ATMOS also accommodates two more behind the screen channels between the L C and C R. While not part of the bed, you can pan across the front wall with an object.

If you look at the helpful diagrams in the OP, you can see how the bed channels are reproduced using surround arrays.

The processor has 62 discrete outputs to use and as you noted the rendering engine scales to each individual installation. (There are 64 outputs on the processors, with 2 reserved for subs.). ATMOS also introduced bass management into the equation for the first time outside of IMAX....

 

[shadyJ]

Hi FilmMixer, I have been following the discussion of Atmos thread in the Digital Cinema forum at Avs. Also, for those who want to know more, that thread is packed with great information about Atmos from industry guys. One thing mentioned in this thread is that all the speakers should have the same dynamic range, as the fronts, do you agree with this? Another thing, I know Atmos calculates for speaker position, but does it do anything to compensate for the speaker itself, like any kind of EQing? I'm guessing no, but it's an interesting idea.

 

[FilmMixer]

Hi FilmMixer, I have been following the discussion of Atmos thread in the Digital Cinema forum at Avs. Also, for those who want to know more, that thread is packed with great information about Atmos from industry guys. One thing mentioned in this thread is that all the speakers should have the same dynamic range, as the fronts, do you agree with this? Another thing, I know Atmos calculates for speaker position, but does it do anything to compensate for the speaker itself, like any kind of EQing? I'm guessing no, but it's an interesting idea.

The speakers need to be able to reproduce the desired SPL from the measuring position.. for the surrounds, it is 99db for each individual speaker.

The setup and calibration process does equalize the speakers, both when functioning as part of an array, and individually.

EDIT.. if you go to the documents tab from the following link, you can read about all the details about setup, specs, etc..

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professional/technology/cinema/dolby-atmos-creators.html?onlnk=atmos-main-creat

 

[shadyJ]

Wow, so it sounds a bit like the Trinnov system? That is a hell of a sound system. I don't see any reason why it can't fall into the consumer domain, the processing power is cheap enough nowadays. Yeah, it would be more optimal in a beefy auditorium with lots of amps and speakers, but the technology is still advantageous even to home audio setups.

 

[palmharbor]

What?

My Martin Logan's ESL will not permit anything on top of them and I am perfectly satisfied with them and the 7.2 system I have. This is just a business trying to create a market for new stuff for people to buy. Most of cinema or TV is people talking to each other....that is where the concern should be.

 

[RichB]

There is no way I upgrading my 5.1 system for more speakers.
If Atmos can make better use of them, I am all for it.

My rears are Revel Studios and are woefully underused.
The DSP's in the both the Onkyo PR-5507 and Marantz AV8801 have had a negative impact in my system so Pure Direct is all I used.
I sold the AV8801 and use the Oppo BDP-105D for TV/Movies and the HA-1 exclusively for two channel.

Perhaps the DSP's implementation is improved by Atmos so it may have a secondary benefit.
It seems to have removed the Ethernet hub in the AV8801, maybe it can remove copper plates and 5'th feet

If any Manufacturers a listening, what does turning off the display have to do with Pure Direct. Maybe, we just want the damn display Off

- Rich

 

[FirstReflection]

Wow. I am still the one and only person who has 11 speakers in this poll?! (2 subwoofers, as well )

I'm definitely curious to find out exactly how Dolby Atmos is going to work at home. My guess is that it will be rather similar to how DTS' entire hierarchy of audio formats works. What I mean is, I'm guessing the content itself will have to be encoded in a new Dolby Atmos codec. If your AV Receiver or Processor has the capability to decode that codec, then you will be able to enjoy the full Dolby Atmos soundtrack. But if your AV Receiver or Processor does not have a Dolby Atmos decoder, then it will default to the "bed" or "core" audio layer, which I would assume will be 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby TrueHD?

If DTS ever gets their -MDA format going, I'd certainly expect it to work the same way that DTS has layered new formats on top of existing "Core" formats all along. If a disc has a DTS Neo:X 11.1 encoded soundtrack, it will play back using 11 speakers plus the subwoofer channel so long as you have the DTS Neo:X decoder. But if you have "only" 7 speakers, it just plays as regular DTS-HD Master Audio in 7.1. Makes perfect sense to me that DTS-MDA would be a very similar situation.

What I really wonder about, though, is whether any sort of new matrix processing will be added to the Dolby Atmos suite for the home market. If someone is going to go to the hassle and expense of adding 9, 11, or even 13 speakers to their room, I can't imagine they're going to be happy with only ever being able to use all of those speakers strictly for Dolby Atmos encoded recordings!

In the case of DTS Neo:X, it can "expand" any existing soundtrack - from 7.1 all the way down to just 2-channel stereo - to use all 11 speakers. Obviously, it does a better job of making all 11 speakers sound discrete with actual DTS Neo:X encoded content. But at least there's a way to make use of all 11 speakers, regardless of the number of channels in the original recording.

The other bit of confusion I'm predicting is with the 13 speaker pre-outs that the new Denon and Marantz models are showing on their back panels. We're going to have this crazy mismatch of the number of pre-outs, the number of speaker binding posts (or XLR outputs), the number of internal amplifier channels, and the actual number of channels that the AV Receiver or Processor can output!

We already faced this with the Denon AVR-X4000, Marantz SR7008, and Marantz AV8801. All of those models had 11 speaker pre-outs (plus 2 subwoofer outputs), but only the AV8801 Pre/Pro could actually use 11 speakers simultaneously. Despite having 11 sets of binding posts and 11 speaker pre-outs, both the AVR-X4000 and SR7008 could only ever play a maximum of 9 speakers simultaneously. You could have 11 speakers all connected, but you would then have to decide which 9 out of those 11 speakers you wanted to use at any given time. Even crazier was that the AVR-X4000 only had 7 internal amplifiers. Talk about confusing!

Onkyo's offerings were a little bit less confusing, but not much. The TX-NR3010 and TX-NR5010 gave you 9 internal amplifiers and 11 speaker pre-outs. If you wanted to use 11 speakers simultaneously, just connect an external 2-channel amp to power the Front Wide channels, and you were good to go. It could still be confusing, though, because those models still had 11 sets of binding posts. So you could have all 11 speakers physically wired to the TX-NR3010 or 5010, but if you did that, you could only power 9 out of those 11 speakers simultaneously. Oy.

But now, with the AVR-X4100, AVR-X5200, AVR-X7200, SR7009, AV7702, and AV8802, things are getting really nuts!

So...

--> Denon AVR-X4100: 13 speaker pre-outs (plus 2 subwoofer outputs), 11 sets of binding posts, 7 internal amps, and it appears as though you can run a maximum of 9 speakers simultaneously.

--> Denon AVR-X5200: 13 speaker pre-outs, 11 sets of binding posts, 9 internal amps, and appears you can run a maximum of 11 speakers simultaneously.

--> Denon AVR-X7200: 13 speaker pre-outs, 11 sets of binding posts, 9 internal amps, and appears to run a maximum of 11 speakers simultaneously.

Differences between the X5200 and X7200? Looks as though the X7200 gives you 7.1 analogue audio inputs, a 2nd component video output, 32-bit DACs, and beefier internal amps.

But that AVR-X4100 is nuts! 13 pre-outs but only 7 internal amps and 9 simultaneous speakers? So...5.1 plus 4 Height speakers for Dolby Atmos?

Over at Marantz...

--> Marantz SR7009: 13 speaker pre-outs, 11 sets of binding posts, 9 internal amps, and appears to run a maximum of 11 speakers simultaneously.

The SR7009 appears to actually be closest to the Denon X5200, but it adds 7.1 analogue audio inputs. Otherwise, it's closer to the X5200 than the X7200.

--> Marantz AV7702: 13 RCA pre-outs, 11 XLR outputs, appears to run a maximum of 11 speakers simultaneously

So this looks to be an SR7009 in Pre/Pro form. Exact same compliment of inputs, same 24-bit DACs, but with 11 XLR outputs instead of speaker binding posts and 9 internal amps.

Finally...

--> Marantz AV8802: 13 RCA pre-outs, 13 XLR outputs, might this actually be able to run 13 speakers simultaneously?

Out of all of them, the AV8802 is the only one that suggests to me that 13 speakers simultaneously might be possible. With all of the others, either the speaker binding posts or the XLR outputs make it pretty clear that you're choosing to run EITHER a 2nd pair of Height speakers OR a pair of Front Wide speakers. Take your pick and you can have 11 speakers running simultaneously. But I'm betting it's a lot like the AVR-X4000 or SR7008 - you've got those 11 speaker pre-outs, but can only run a maximum of 9 speakers simultaneously. Now I'm feeling pretty certain that you'll have the 13 speaker pre-outs, but only 11 speakers simultaneously is ever possible.

But the AV8802 -- having those 13 XLR outputs and not forcing you to make a choice, it makes me think that maybe it really does have 13 DACs in there and might actually be able to run all 13 speakers simultaneously. Now how might Dolby Atmos at home handle that?

------------------------------------------

To be honest, I haven't been all that impressed with the addition of the Front Height speakers to my system. I could remove them and be perfectly happy. But I've actually quite enjoyed the addition of the Front Wide speakers.

So DTS Neo:X and Audyssey DSX both make use of the Front Wides. Reading between the lines, it appears as though the plan for Dolby Atmos at home is to use our traditional 7 speaker setup, and then add 4 Height speakers. That might be very similar in the end to the speaker setup that Yamaha has had for a long time with their Front and Back pairs of "Presence" Height channels. I've also heard the Auro 3D Audio guys talk about suggesting that a traditional 7 speaker setup with "quadraphonic Heights" would be their recommendation for home setups. So at least there's some consensus. And if you look at some of the DTS Neo:X diagrams, it appears as though they were planning on one pair of Front Heights and one pair of Back Heights originally, too.

But what might become of my Front Wide speakers then? Will they only remain in use if I select DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX as my listening mode? If I switch over to Dolby Atmos, will it silence my Front Wide speakers in favour of using 4 Height speakers? It certainly looks like that's the plan.

But hey, there's that DTS-MDA format out there in the ether. DTS might build upon Neo:X by adding Back Height speakers to give a total of 13 speakers in all!

-----------------------------------------

Whatever it ends up being, I'm down with it. I can't say I've really been all that blown away by Dolby Atmos in theaters, but it's cool on rare occasions when it's used well - like Cerebro in X-Men: Days of Future Past. I've already put 11 speakers and 2 subwoofers in my tiny apartment theater. What's 2 more? haha

- Rob H.