Differences in DAC's - is it that noticable?

[metalmancpa]

I am looking at new receivers. When looking at the Yamaha Aventage line, I see that the xx30 line this year changed the DAC from Burr-Brown (24-bit) to ESS Sabre (32-bit). I realize ESS gets good reviews, and is newer than Burr-Brown.

Forgetting all of the official testing with engineering type results found in A/V magazines etc., in my living room, if I had last years model RX-A3020 with the Burr-Brown DAC and this years updated model RX-A3030 with the ESS Sabre DAC, since all other specs are almost exact, would I honestly be able to tell the difference in sound?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You would not notice any difference in SQ among any of the DAC.

 

[metalmancpa]

Well, I've narrowed it down to the Yamaha RX-A2030 or RX-A3020. I have ADS1290 4-ohm speakers, thus power is an issue. I'm leaning to the 3020, but what is making me hesitate is the 2030 has the newer 32-bit ESS DAC vs the 3020's 24-bit Burr-Brown. Since music is my #1, I was just wondering which part of my decision is more important. I am thinking power, thus the 3020. And now the 3020 is priced that same as the 2030 wince it's last years model.

 

[crossedover]

but what is making me hesitate is the 2030 has the newer 32-bit ESS DAC vs the 3020's 24-bit Burr-Brown. .

if you "believe" you can hear a difference you will Your source gear and the recording will likely, if any, be more apt to be a problem than different DAC chips.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yamaha RX-A3020 @ 1% THD: 162W x 2Ch 8 ohms/258 W x 2Ch 4 ohms/69W x 5Ch 8 ohms (Sound & Vision Magazine)

Yamaha RX-A3020 A/V Receiver Page 4 | Sound & Vision

Yamaha RX-A2000 @ 1% THD: 189.3W x 2Ch 8 ohms/287.4W x 2Ch 4 ohms/79.9W x 5Ch 8 ohms (old Home Theater Magazine, now new Sound & Vision Magazine)

Yamaha Aventage RX-A2000 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Sound & Vision

Logic says the 3000 series should have more power than the 2000 series, so I would blame this on different lab methodology.

But I suspect the difference in power is insignificant. The difference between their DAC is even LESS significant. So the determining factor should be features.

Have you you tried other AVR (Denon, Anthem, etc.) and compared to Yamaha?

 

[metalmancpa]

Have looked at others from NAD, Denon, Pioneer, Adcom. Have only read about Cambridge Audio and Anthem.

Honestly the Yamaha is more feature rich than I truly need, although I would definitely utilize all the features. NAD was almost too simplistic, as they hang their hat on rated power and not bells and whistles.

 

[PENG]

ADTG, like many of us, have various gear that have some top notch DACs in them and we found they don't make audible differences. Some days I find my Oppo (has the flagship ESS DAC) sound better or same as my Denon 3910 (has the 2nd best Burr Brown DAC), while other days I could swear the Denon sounds better.

At the point nearing diminishing return, what matters most is the source media. if the recording and mastering is good, it will sound good, otherwise it does not matter what DAC, players and amps you have, given that you have decent speakers as ultimately that's what has to translate the electronic signal to sound.

 

[PENG]

if you "believe" you can hear a difference you will Your source gear and the recording will likely, if any, be more apt to be a problem than different DAC chips.

I think you are right, for that reason alone, the OP should probably go with the 2030 for the 32-bit DAC.

 

[metalmancpa]

I think you are right, for that reason alone, the OP should probably go with the 2030 for the 32-bit DAC.

Although I was originally leaning that way, because I have the 4-ohm ADS 1290's I think the slight tick in power with the 3020 is the way to go. I'm partially deaf anyways.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Although I was originally leaning that way, because I have the 4-ohm ADS 1290's I think the slight tick in power with the 3020 is the way to go. I'm partially deaf anyways.

What do you make of these power measurements (RX-A3020 vs. RX-A2010) both from Sound & Vision Magazine?

From S&V Magazine
Yamaha RX-A3020: 162W x 2Ch 8 ohms/258W x 2Ch 4 ohms/69W x 5Ch 8 ohms/63W x 7Ch 8 ohms
Yamaha RX-A2010: 161W x 2Ch 8 ohms/255W x 2Ch 4 ohms/62W x 5Ch 8 ohms/60W x 7Ch 8 ohms

Review: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2010 A/V Receiver Page 3 | Sound & Vision

Is there REALLY a difference in power output between the 2?

 

[PENG]

Although I was originally leaning that way, because I have the 4-ohm ADS 1290's I think the slight tick in power with the 3020 is the way to go. I'm partially deaf anyways.

I just noticed you might have a typo and you actually meant the 3020 not 2020 right? In that case, the specs of the DSD1796 in the 3020 is quite comparable to that of the 3030's ESS9016. You are talking 123 SNR, 0.0005% THD vs 122 SNR, 0.0003% THD, seem like a virtual tie to me. As for the 24bit vs 32bit, I can't see how the 32bit would do better for such AVRs.

It seems to me if you can get pass the DAC thing and if the 3020 costs only slightly less, then go for the 3030 otherwise the 3020 maybe all you need. Either one should have no trouble powering your ADS unless you listen loud in a larger room or the other 5 speakers are also 4 ohm ADS type. In that case, you may have to add a two or three channel power amp.

 

[metalmancpa]

What do you make of these power measurements (RX-A3020 vs. RX-A2010) both from Sound & Vision Magazine?

From S&V Magazine
Yamaha RX-A3020: 162W x 2Ch 8 ohms/258W x 2Ch 4 ohms/69W x 5Ch 8 ohms/63W x 7Ch 8 ohms
Yamaha RX-A2010: 161W x 2Ch 8 ohms/255W x 2Ch 4 ohms/62W x 5Ch 8 ohms/60W x 7Ch 8 ohms

Review: Yamaha Aventage RX-A2010 A/V Receiver Page 3 | Sound & Vision

Is there REALLY a difference in power output between the 2?

It comes down to newer model 2030 vs last years model 3020 since they price the same. The power is negligible, and it seems to the ear so is the DAC. The newer models add MHL and I believe 4K upscaling, two items not on my hot list.

Actually a tough decision. It seems either will handle my ADS 1290's just fine. Maybe I'll just flip a coin.

 

[PENG]

It comes down to newer model 2030 vs last years model 3020 since they price the same. The power is negligible, and it seems to the ear so is the DAC. The newer models add MHL and I believe 4K upscaling, two items not on my hot list.

Actually a tough decision. It seems either will handle my ADS 1290's just fine. Maybe I'll just flip a coin.

So you are really comparing the 2030 to the 3020, I thought you meant 3030 vs 3020. In that case, the 3020 actually has better DACs. It is only the 3030 that has the ESS9016 that is comparable to the 3020's DSD1976 whereas the 2030's ESS9006 is not as good. So even if you believe those DACs will make a difference (that I do not), you should go for the 3020 unless there are features only the 2030 offers that you must have.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those 2 models are neck-to-neck in the race.

From Yamaha:

The AVENTAGE RX-A2030 maximizes multi-room entertainment with advanced HDMI® zone switching while powering speakers in three independent zones. With 9 channels of amplification, enjoy superior audio quality with the ESS Technology ES9006 SABRE™ Premier Audio DAC and gain more calibration accuracy with an improved YPAO™ microphone. The Compressed Music Enhancer expands the bit rate of stereo PCM signals to improve the fidelity of standard digital audio formats. Reward yourself with the highest level of video performance offered from a Yamaha video processor.

The RX-A3020 is a powerful statement in the evolution of Yamaha engineering. A 9.2ch AV receiver, it offers 11.2ch expandability and superb surround sound realism with CINEMA DSP HD3. Employ powerful noise reduction functions using the HQV Vida video processor. The double bottom frame ensures optimal sound while features like AirPlay and multi-zone HDMI output provide increased flexibility. It is packed with power, has processing flexibility and every aspect of chassis construction has been engineered for enhanced performance.

RX-A2030

vs. RX-A3020

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Preout	7.2 ch	vs. 11.2 ch

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Video adjustment	Yes	Yes (With variable parameters)

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

192kHz/24-bit DACs for all channels	(ESS)	(Burr-Brown)

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

4K Ultra HD Pass-through and upscaling	Yes	Yes

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

HDMI 3D passthrough	Yes	Yes

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Zone HDMI	Zone 2 (All sources), Zone 4 (HDMI only)	Zone 2 (All sources), Zone 4 (HDMI only)

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Weight	37.7 lbs.	40.1 lbs.

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Front Panel	Aluminum	Aluminum

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

Network Port	Yes (AirPlay, Pandora®, Rhapsody®, DLNA® 1.5, vTuner)	Yes (AirPlay, Pandora®, Rhapsody®, SiriusXM, DLNA® 1.5, vTuner)

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

YPAO multi-point measurement	Yes (R.S.C. w/multi-point measurement)	Yes (With angle measurement)

<TBODY>
</TBODY>

So they look almost identical. It seems like the 2030 has the newer YPAO, which sort of reminds me of Audyssey XT vs. Audyssey XT32, but probably not quite.

But because of this, I would get the 2030.

 

[metalmancpa]

Those 2 models are neck-to-neck in the race.

So they look almost identical. It seems like the 2030 has the newer YPAO, which sort of reminds me of Audyssey XT vs. Audyssey XT32, but probably not quite.

But because of this, I would get the 2030.

Pretty darn close. It does come down to features. To be truthful, the YPAO is unimportant to me. I like tuning my a/v setup to my ears versus "automated". Call me old fashioned, but it's fun for me manually tweaking the sound.

 

[PENG]

Those 2 models are neck-to-neck in the race.

From Yamaha:

The AVENTAGE RX-A2030 maximizes multi-room entertainment with advanced HDMI® zone switching while powering speakers in three independent zones. With 9 channels of amplification, enjoy superior audio quality with the ESS Technology ES9006 SABRE™ Premier Audio DAC and gain more calibration accuracy with an improved YPAO™ microphone. The Compressed Music Enhancer expands the bit rate of stereo PCM signals to improve the fidelity of standard digital audio formats. Reward yourself with the highest level of video performance offered from a Yamaha video processor.

The RX-A3020 is a powerful statement in the evolution of Yamaha engineering. A 9.2ch AV receiver, it offers 11.2ch expandability and superb surround sound realism with CINEMA DSP HD3. Employ powerful noise reduction functions using the HQV Vida video processor. The double bottom frame ensures optimal sound while features like AirPlay and multi-zone HDMI output provide increased flexibility. It is packed with power, has processing flexibility and every aspect of chassis construction has been engineered for enhanced performance.

RX-A2030

vs. RX-A3020

<tbody>
</tbody>

Preout	7.2 ch	vs. 11.2 ch

<tbody>
</tbody>

Video adjustment	Yes	Yes (With variable parameters)

<tbody>
</tbody>

192kHz/24-bit DACs for all channels	(ESS)	(Burr-Brown)

<tbody>
</tbody>

4K Ultra HD Pass-through and upscaling	Yes	Yes

<tbody>
</tbody>

HDMI 3D passthrough	Yes	Yes

<tbody>
</tbody>

Zone HDMI	Zone 2 (All sources), Zone 4 (HDMI only)	Zone 2 (All sources), Zone 4 (HDMI only)

<tbody>
</tbody>

Weight	37.7 lbs.	40.1 lbs.

<tbody>
</tbody>

Front Panel	Aluminum	Aluminum

<tbody>
</tbody>

Network Port	Yes (AirPlay, Pandora®, Rhapsody®, DLNA® 1.5, vTuner)	Yes (AirPlay, Pandora®, Rhapsody®, SiriusXM, DLNA® 1.5, vTuner)

<tbody>
</tbody>

YPAO multi-point measurement	Yes (R.S.C. w/multi-point measurement)	Yes (With angle measurement)

<tbody>
</tbody>

So they look almost identical. It seems like the 2030 has the newer YPAO, which sort of reminds me of Audyssey XT vs. Audyssey XT32, but probably not quite.

But because of this, I would get the 2030.

I agree they are almost identical but the OP's main concern is the better DAC so I have to emphasize that the 3020's Burr Brown 1796 has better specs than the 2030's ESS 9006, marginally better, but better.

Also, the 3020 appeared to have the more advanced YPAO if you read the fine print.

 

[metalmancpa]

Still not quite sure explaining seeing the price variants being so large between the 10xx, 20xx, 30xx models. They appear so close in specs. You guys have been very helpful. I'm pretty sure I'm going to try to scoop up a 3020 before they disappear new off the market at the lowered price. But even if I missed that opportunity, the 2030 is practically the same overall choice.

 

[PENG]

Still not quite sure explaining seeing the price variants being so large between the 10xx, 20xx, 30xx models. They appear so close in specs. You guys have been very helpful. I'm pretty sure I'm going to try to scoop up a 3020 before they disappear new off the market at the lowered price. But even if I missed that opportunity, the 2030 is practically the same overall choice.

One is last year's flag ship, the other is the current second best of the Advantage line, price being the same does make it a tougher choice. If you go for the 3020, make sure you still get the full warranty though, not that it matters as Yamaha seems to have the most reliable AVRs but it is just insurance.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Pretty darn close. It does come down to features. To be truthful, the YPAO is unimportant to me. I like tuning my a/v setup to my ears versus "automated". Call me old fashioned, but it's fun for me manually tweaking the sound.

You never know. Things can change, even if we don't want to. I used to think exactly as you until I finally gave in and tried Audyssey Dynamic EQ. The endgame is about better sound. It doesn't hurt to try and doesn't hurt to have the option. It doesn't mean you have to use them in the end.

Also, the 3020 appeared to have the more advanced YPAO if you read the fine print.

If the 3020 does have a more advanced RC software, then the 3020 is the clear winner to me (at the same price).

My thinking is, I have never heard a difference in DAC. But I have heard a clear difference with Audyssey DEQ. So if the 3020 has better RC, then perhaps, just perhaps it may have a better equivalent to Audyssey DEQ (not dynamic range control or dynamic volume or Dolby Volume leveler, etc.).

 

[metalmancpa]

I can only imagine that 95%+ of the buying public has not a clue what we are discussing. The go out, pick a price, like the shiny knobs, get sold by the salesman, and buy. I am no expert, but I know enough to research. And when I'm thinking $1,500, my research becomes deeper. The sad part about the Yamaha brand, which is why I was initially considering not going this route, is that the only brick & mortar store I can find them at is at Best Buy. No offense to employees there, but I'm pretty sure I know a lot more about a/v receivers than any salesman there would, thus no one to discuss true selling points with (unless I do happen upon a "real" a/v salesman who knows his/her stuff). I used to buy my equipment at Tweeter, and they generally had knowledgeable sales people who knew their products. Even sadder, when I called Yamaha on Saturday and asked my DAC question, the person couldn't even tell me which had Burr-Brown or ESS DAC.

The higher end gear shops who sell Cambridge Audio, NAD, speakers like Martin Logan, etc. - I just don't have the bucks to shell out for comparable equipment. The $1,500 NAD entry I was looking at was refurbished (not a hugely big deal) - T775HD2. No bells and whistles, plus, there really isn't a warm & fuzzy with the lack of info I found on my search. I know NAD gets good write-ups for power, but just think with the huge lack of any bells & whistles, not sure how much better their build quality is over the Yamaha's I'm looking at. And as I previously stated, I just don't have the time (CPA in tax season), to run around finding every $1,500 a/v receiver I can to audition. And with higher ends, most of the units would be used.