x4000 kicking sc-05 butt.

[Afury8]

I replaced my pioneer elite sc-05 with a X4000 and it is noticeably much better. Sound is much fuller. Can't stop listening to music. Just awesome. Now the pioneer elite is in the master bedroom.

 

[ichigo]

I replaced my pioneer elite sc-05 with a X4000 and it is noticeably much better. Sound is much fuller. Can't stop listening to music. Just awesome. Now the pioneer elite is in the master bedroom.

Those first generation ICEPower modules had some problems driving 4 ohm loads, maybe your speakers are hard to drive.

 

[Afury8]

They were driving some b&w 330's. Dont get me wrong I like the pioneer. It's just different with the denon.

 

[PENG]

Those first generation ICEPower modules had some problems driving 4 ohm loads, maybe your speakers are hard to drive.

A little of that, and a little bit of Placebo, all good for him.

 

[PENG]

They were driving some b&w 330's. Dont get me wrong I like the pioneer. It's just different with the denon.

Congrats! Very good choice, that thing has just about every feature one would ever need in the digital world, plus capable enough amp section.

 

[ImcLoud]

While I think most amps sound the same {although for some reason the tripath stuff sounds better to me and the tube stuff just sounds different not really better for the most part an amp is an amp}, you may be experiencing the difference in the room correction software? Both are very nice units, congrats on the new avr Its a boy, 26lbs 6oz's , 17" and.... Black?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I replaced my pioneer elite sc-05 with a X4000 and it is noticeably much better. Sound is much fuller. Can't stop listening to music. Just awesome. Now the pioneer elite is in the master bedroom.

Is it because you use Audyssey XT32 + Dynamic EQ w/ dual Sub EQ?

Yeah, the first time I turned on Dynamic EQ on my Denon, I had a grin from ear to ear.

When I turn off DEQ, my face looks like this.

 

[RichB]

I replaced my pioneer elite sc-05 with a X4000 and it is noticeably much better. Sound is much fuller. Can't stop listening to music. Just awesome. Now the pioneer elite is in the master bedroom.

That does not surprise me. I head the SC-07 with my friends B&W CM7's and is was but flat when driven. He switched to Outlaw M2200 driven directly by the BDP-105. The improvement was not subtle.

- Rich

 

[Goliath]

That does not surprise me. I head the SC-07 with my friends B&W CM7's and is was but flat when driven. He switched to Outlaw M2200 driven directly by the BDP-105. The improvement was not subtle.

- Rich

There are good reasons for this. Two good reasons would be carrying out a listening test that is non level-matched and non time-synched. The other good reason is a test lacking any bias-controls. Anyone who listens under these conditions allows themselves to engineer random audible differences, positive or negative, that agree with their subconscious and/or conscious expectations. The outcome is like ... rolling the dice.

 

[RichB]

There are good reasons for this. Two good reasons would be carrying out a listening test that is non level-matched and non time-synched. The other good reason is a test lacking any bias-controls. Anyone who listens under these conditions allows themselves to engineer random audible differences, positive or negative, that agree with their subconscious and/or conscious expectations. The outcome is like ... rolling the dice.

Absolutely, subjective analysis alone is unreliable.

The newer model Pioneer receivers with digital amps are better at handling 4 ohm loads.
But there were some issues measured by Audioholics.
The were problems with the continuous tests 20-20kHz which, of course, is not music.

My impression of my friends SC-07/ B&W CM7's system was that it was running out of gas when turned to -15.
By this I mean, it did not seem to get much louder as we increased the volume.
The CM7s have a minimum impedance of 3.1 ohms, nominal 7 ohms, so this does not appear to be a good match, on paper, anyway.

When I listen to music with good dynamic range (DR 13 or higher), 3db in noticeable and 6db feels like a large change.

In my friends system, we felt that there were increased dynamics when driven by the Outlaw M2200's.
Again, this is a fully subjective impression, nothing more.

- Rich

 

[Goliath]

My impression of my friends SC-07/ B&W CM7's system was that it was running out of gas when turned to -15.
By this I mean, it did not seem to get much louder as we increased the volume.
The CM7s have a minimum impedance of 3.1 ohms, nominal 7 ohms, so this does not appear to be a good match, on paper, anyway.

How loud were you playing? Just remember that amplifier impedance testing is usually done at full rated power. Any amp can handle a 4 ohm/3ohm load at some frequency at some volume level. The CM7 may have an impedance dip down to 3 ohms, at some frequency, but that's typical nowadays. As long as you don't clip the amp, it should be fine.

Normally when an amp runs out of gas it clips. When an amp clips things take a nasty turn, usually. The last amp I clipped, as part of testing, the sound become garbled and totally distorted. Unless the Pioneers incorporate some aggressive limiter of some kind, not entirely sure as I don't know Pioneer products all too well.

 

[Ponzio]

Power is power; the more you have, the better the sound. No surprise there. Brands may deliver it differently .... detailed, warm, dynamic, blah, blah, blah ... especially with a lower ohm speaker but the laws of physics have not been conquered by any of the manufacturer's to date.

Enjoy your unit ... it's better than Christmastime

 

[Goliath]

Power is power; the more you have, the better the sound.

Only true to a point. If you already have enough power then adding more won't improve anything.

Brands may deliver it differently .... detailed, warm, dynamic, blah, blah, blah ... especially with a lower ohm speaker but the laws of physics have not been conquered by any of the manufacturer's to date.

The amount of power that is delivered has nothing to do with the so-called 'tonal signature'. Most solid-state amplifiers have a ruler flat frequency response which is the measure of tonal balance. The 'detailed, warm, dynamic' observations could be a result of listening at different SPL - ever heard of Fletcher and Munson?

 

[ImcLoud]

Only true to a point. If you already have enough power then adding more won't improve anything.

lol, obviously... I use 3/4 throttle as a rule, if you are listening to your current amp at 3/4 throttle its too small... My home system at half way is really powerful so I know at 3/4 it would be too much, I have heard the difference between a small amount of headroom and a larger amount, the larger sounds better, I heard an ab comparison a few times, but in my own experience my xpa200 vs my xpa 2 at low volumes sound the same, but at higher volumes when closing in on the limits of the 200 you can tell the sq degrades quite a bit, and in a large room 125 watts per channel isnt much for music...

 

[Ponzio]

Only true to a point.

Agreed.

ever heard of Fletcher and Munson?

Comedy act?

 

[Goliath]

Comedy act?

Fletcher and Munson don't have anything in common with Laurel and Hardy, last I checked.

 

[Ponzio]

ever heard of Fletcher and Munson?

Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do now. Thanks

 

[RichB]

How loud were you playing? Just remember that amplifier impedance testing is usually done at full rated power. Any amp can handle a 4 ohm/3ohm load at some frequency at some volume level. The CM7 may have an impedance dip down to 3 ohms, at some frequency, but that's typical nowadays. As long as you don't clip the amp, it should be fine.

Normally when an amp runs out of gas it clips. When an amp clips things take a nasty turn, usually. The last amp I clipped, as part of testing, the sound become garbled and totally distorted. Unless the Pioneers incorporate some aggressive limiter of some kind, not entirely sure as I don't know Pioneer products all too well.

We were definitely pushing the limits of the SC-07 but we were not hearing gross distortion.
There are different gains but the BDP-105 driving the amps we never turned the volume beyond 70 out of 100.
I did not have a SPL meter. There was no desire to go louder.

This thread discusses measurements that show that some amps may clip a musical peak and continue right along which comes from some AH articles on amplifier clipping and this article Power Amplifier Clipping and its Effects on Loudspeaker Reliability.


- Rich

 

[Goliath]

Thanks, I read the article and yeah, I know all about brief clipping and how it may go unnoticed while listening to music. I've also clipped my fair share of amplifiers, and I also know what exceeding the rated power of an amplifier typically sounds like. The character of sound may change initially, but soon after that everything collapses and falls off a cliff. Then it's just gross distortion. That's when you want to turn the volume down.

Like I said, I don't know Pioneer products well, so I don't know what type of limiter is employed, if indeed there is one. If something sounded flat it also could have been a result of loudspeaker compression. But, I won't belabour the point any further. If you thought you heard a flat sound then I suppose you did.

 

[canelli]

My SC-05 goes into audible distortion when dealing with difficult to drive speakers. I first noticed this on loud explosions at moderate volumes. The review of the SC-07 here touched upon the issue. If you find yourself in the camp that believes all amps sound the same, the amp in question has to be able to handle the power requirement without issue.

By adding an amplifier to the chain with the SC-05, the difference in sound is dramatic enough that it is obvious during normal listening. I contribute the major difference in sound to the issues the SC-05 / SC-07 have with driving difficult speakers. B&W speakers normally have nasty phase shifts and dip low in impedance making them difficult to drive.