Standmount speakers: $2K, 4K or $6K?

E

Ears to you

Junior Audioholic
Quick update...

I've connected with Jim Salk and arranged for him to send me the prototype Salk "Silks" for audition. The speakers will be shipped out tomorrow. My plan is to home audition the Silks versus the Totem "Fires" and possibly one other.
Will keep thread updated, and continue to appreciate any additional thoughts from Forum members.
I have been interested in the Salk Silks myself, and will be looking forward to your reactions with bated breath! I haven't heard the Totem Fires, but I did like the Signature 1's very much.
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
Changes everything? Can you clarify what you mean?



Here you go from the Stereophile review: "This track also revealed some slight problems with midrange clarity....such as the clarinet on my Mosaic CD (Stereophile STPH015-2),the instrument occasionally sounded a little more sour in intonation than I was anticipating."



The Soundstage measurements aren't very precise or informative, they are nice but certainly would not be the kind engineers take on the test bench to measure performance.



Besides being very tiny FR plots and not very suitable for scientific analysis, there's plenty of things going on in an FR plot that make it difficult to say its caused by one thing or the other. As far as resonances, sometimes they can be seen on the impedence plot if it's a metal woofer issue, sometimes it's a cabinet issue.





The Soundstage measurements aren't that informative. Here's a better one, and it shows very high THD at 100 dB, so the woofer certainly do not perform very well at high volumes. I know from personal experience as I've owned the Usher BE-718s (and Paradigm S2v2s as well, which were congested in the upper midrange in my experience).

Let's see now. The distortion graph you show is for a level of 100 dB at 1 foot for the Usher Be-718. Care to figure out what that would be at 2 meters, which is the distance the Soundstage graph is for? Care to tell us why the distortion at 30 Hz would be of much interest? The Be-718 is about 15 dB down at 30 Hz.

If you really want to listen to music at levels above 90 dB, I suggest that small monitor speakers are not the most suitable for that. I would also advise you to use hearing protection, but since that would degrade the sound, a better solution would be to listen at more moderate levels.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> Well, let’s look at some of what you said.

“According to Stereophile review of the S2s, they also heard some congestion, which they partially attributed to the grill, which is recommended to be attached during playback however it happens to rattle during playback. The same Stereophile review noted a large high-Q resonance mode at 800Hz.”


The review in Stereophile does not use the word congestion, and the above does not accurately reflect what it does say. You just say the grille rattles during playback, which is misleading on a couple of counts. It doesn’t constitute congestion. Also, the rattling occurred with a test signal, not normal playback of music. What John Atkinson said was “. . . what I did hear from both speakers when I played the half-step–spaced toneburst track on Editor's Choice was some rattling of the grille between 90Hz and 160Hz.” It wasn’t normal music but a test signal!


<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]--> Now, I did try to explain to you that that 800 Hz resonance for the S2 would show up in the response measurements, but you didn’t take the hint. Look at the graphs in Chart 1 of the Soundstage measurements. In the top graph, showing the curves on axis and 15 and 30 degrees off axis, there is that narrow dip at about 800 Hz in all of them. Now go down to the graph showing the curves at 45, 60, and 75 degrees off axis: there is a dip there on all of them. So you see, that resonance around 800 Hz does show up in the Soundstage FR and dispersion graphs.

SoundStage! Measurements - Paradigm Reference Signature S2 Loudspeakers (6/2004)

That little dip shows in the on axis response curve in Stereophile but because of the way Stereophile displays the off axis curves, they do not directly show in the resonance, although you could infer the resonance . I’m not complaining since the way Stereophile displays the dispersion has some advantages.

As to the significance of the resonance, it is not merely that it shows in measurements but how much it affects the sound. JA seems to have thought he could hear it on test signals and maybe on some music, including one of the Stereophile recordings he helped make.

“As the toneburst went through the upper notes in the 512–1024Hz octave, each toneburst could be heard to acquire a very slight "shadow" at a different pitch. The same thing happened an octave lower, but with the shadow at the higher-pitched tone. I wasn't sure if I could consistently hear anything like this effect when listening to music; with spectrally pure sounds, however, such as the clarinet on my Mosaic CD (Stereophile STPH015-2), the instrument occasionally sounded a little more sour in intonation than I was anticipating.”

Paradigm Reference Signature S2 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->So it is a very minor problem and it did not prevent Stereophile from classing it as a Class A, Limited LF speaker.<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]--> My own favorite recordings of the Mozart Clarinet Quintet sound beautiful over my Signature S2 speakers. And, it is likely that they would sound beautiful over most of the speakers mentioned in this thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
Woah there, we got a badass over here. I won't mess with you anymore boss, the territory is all yours.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Changes everything? Can you clarify what you mean?



Here you go from the Stereophile review: "This track also revealed some slight problems with midrange clarity....such as the clarinet on my Mosaic CD (Stereophile STPH015-2),the instrument occasionally sounded a little more sour in intonation than I was anticipating."



The Soundstage measurements aren't very precise or informative, they are nice but certainly would not be the kind engineers take on the test bench to measure performance.



Besides being very tiny FR plots and not very suitable for scientific analysis, there's plenty of things going on in an FR plot that make it difficult to say its caused by one thing or the other. As far as resonances, sometimes they can be seen on the impedence plot if it's a metal woofer issue, sometimes it's a cabinet issue.





The Soundstage measurements aren't that informative. Here's a better one, and it shows very high THD at 100 dB, so the woofer certainly do not perform very well at high volumes. I know from personal experience as I've owned the Usher BE-718s (and Paradigm S2v2s as well, which were congested in the upper midrange in my experience).



Yes I have the Usher's and I'm not sure about the"LOUD" comment as they play loud enough to please my ears and never heard any congestion in the mid-ranges. I've used tubes and SS amps and these speakers are very musical. But, as in all speakers, some like some better than others. Usher Audio Technology Be-718 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
All,
• JBL Studio 590, $2000 – Always loved the better quality JBL’s and would have definitely auditioned if I wanted floor standers

• Monitor Audio RX6, $1200 – Great top end and overall value
For the price the Studio, and RX Silver series are nice

I have the JBL Studio 5 bookshelf - a big surprise for the price - I wish they had done
better with the finish

The Monitor Audio Silver line is real nice - the imaging and soundstage from the RX6
is good.
 
Last edited:
P

Pat D

Audioholic
Yes I have the Usher's and I'm not sure about the"LOUD" comment as they play loud enough to please my ears and never heard any congestion in the mid-ranges. I've used tubes and SS amps and these speakers are very musical. But, as in all speakers, some like some better than others. Usher Audio Technology Be-718 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Of course they will play loud enough for you and most other people. I have never had the opportunity to hear the Usher Be-718 but I would like to. Another reviewer who liked them is Doug Schneider of Soundstage who was quite enthusiastic.

"So, while a $2795 speaker isn’t cheap, the Be-718 can be considered a good value because it’s one of the very best minimonitors you can buy. In fact, based on my experience with all the small speakers I’ve reviewed, the Be-718 is now the reference in the category."

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Usher Audio Technology Be-718 Loudspeakers (10/2007)

SoundStage! Measurements - Usher Audio Technology Be-718 "Tiny Dancer" Loudspeakers (10/2007)

Both Doug Schneider and John Atkinson (and I could add Andrew Marshall) seem to like the same sort of speakers I do. But mostly I choose speakers to audition based on the measurements (unfortunately not always available), and the Be-718 measures very well indeed. So if I get the chance, I would audition them just for the interest--as I'm not really looking for new speakers for the foreseeable future.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jbltmp

jbltmp

Audioholic
For the price the Studio, and RX Silver series are nice

I have the JBL Studio 5 bookshelf - a big surprise for the price - I wish they had done
better with the finish

The Monitor Audio Silver line is real nice - the imaging and soundstage from the RX6
is good.
I assume you meant the JBL Studio 530 bookshelf? I'd like to have heard these but there aren't any dealers in my area who carry the Studios. But good to hear JBL's making some quality affordables in their consumer line again. I liked their L series from the early 90's (L1 - L7), but they sort of went astray for a while after that. Nice to know JBL's back!
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
Those studio 580's and 590's intrigue me
The same here. I owned a set of JBL floor stander's back in the early 70's and I was the envy of all my friends, who owned either Technics (Panasonic), Kenwood's or Pioneers. Don't ask what model; I'm lucky that I remember I owned a set. :D

I ended up selling ($400) them to a friend when I got married; my wife won a pair of Bose 901's at a company to-do in '81 and I rode them till 2 years ago and then I got involved with you guys.

Mom told me to be careful in choosing friends but who listens to their mother, right? :D
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
I think Z may have posted this video, but anyway, here it is again.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I have never really liked horn loaded, The first HSU's were not good the second are a little better, I have never heard a Klipsch I liked {heritage series excluded}, but the newer hsu's grew on me, and I have since heard some decent horn stuff, I don't know what it is but something about the sound stage turns me away, they seem placeable and shallow like I need to be closer to them, and then they can come off on the bright side, and after I get close enough to zone in, they seem fatiguing... Just something I have noticed in listening to different stuff.. I am going to spend some time with these JBL's though, since it seems people like them...
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
And Barry makes three. I've always been interested in horn speakers (sorry Swerd!). Can't wait for Z to give a full review.
Well, one will be coming in a couple of days - They are not aggressive for sure - and Not Klipsch like,
instead of pushing you back, they draw you into the stage. > And, that woofer has some clean good
bass.
Now - one subjective short take from an owner at AVS - take note.:)
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1509444/looking-for-main-bookshelf-speakers-under-400-to-complete-2-1-setup-avr-and-sw-already-in-the-mail#post_24158877
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
One interesting thing is the 590s are a 2.5 way crossover design, I would have guess they are a 2 way. I am curious, are there any disadvantages to a 2.5 crossover in a design such as this?

One thing Zieg, a lot of folks prefer the soundstage of horn-loaded speakers when the toe-in is crossed over just a bit in front of the listener. You might give that a try and see how it sounds. Supposedly the reflections from the wall adjacent to the speaker hit the opposite ear so it gives the impression of a very large soundstage, but I guess you would need the right room dimensions for that to happen in.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
One thing Zieg, a lot of folks prefer the soundstage of horn-loaded speakers when the toe-in is crossed over just a bit in front of the listener. You might give that a try and see how it sounds. Supposedly the reflections from the wall adjacent to the speaker hit the opposite ear so it gives the impression of a very large soundstage, but I guess you would need the right room dimensions for that to happen in.
I have them toed in some - and I am getting less reflection off the wall by the same speaker.
They are not your average, so-called small room speaker. They also need a good 12 inches from
the rear wall - I am going to practice with various degrees of toe-in. They do radiate different
from the Klipsch - due to the different horn design. A nice clean JBL tweeter.
 
jbltmp

jbltmp

Audioholic
My first serious speakers were JBL 222's, a monster that I had for 23 years until I moved into a smaller space. I also had the scaled down L112, which was damaged in the Northridge earthquake in 1994. (Both have images on Google) Both were great speakers. Loved those white "aquaplas" woofers.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top