Dual subs for hi-fi 2ch music

[exlabdriver]

I discovered smaller sats + subs for music 20+ years ago & have always gone that way ever since.

See my diminutive but powerful and articulate system here post #567:

Let's see pics of your stereo setup! - Page 19

With my long experience with this format, I highly recommend the dual sub + sats systems...

TAM

 

[j_garcia]

I have a single sub but it is dual 15" drivers. It is also more than enough for my rather large room (~25x30 high vaulted ceiling) and easily handles any type of music. Again, not saying duals are not a good choice, but if the OP hasn't heard any of the subs mentioned, you might want to start with one and see how it goes first. Many of the subs mentioned have pretty significant output. A single LFM-1EX (HSU VTF-3 older variant) is rated large room by Audioholics, so one will already be likely to fill that room easily.

 

[DannyA]

I had my heart set on a dual sub setup for music. Music is my main thing. Because of money constraints I bought one with the intent of buying the other in a few weeks. I was under the impression that two well placed subs would give me some sort of balanced sound. Well something really cool happened. I read as many articles I could on sub placement and found a good location for my sub. WOW! I don't think I need a second sub now. It adds so much and blends very well. I played some Rammstein the other night and I was sure I was going to crack the foundation. I would suggest getting the first sub and spending some time on placement. If after that you still feel the need for more, go ahead and get the second. I'm not saying I would never get a second sub but I just don't feel the need now. My room is approx. 502 sq ft. and the sub has no problem filling the room. I looked at the SVS, HSU and PSA subs and finally chose the PSA XS-15 Sealed Sub ($750). I think I would have been safe with any of the choices though. Hope this helps!

POWER SOUND AUDIO — XS15 Home Audio Subwoofer

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

 

[usery]

You've been patient with my hell-bentness on dual subs. Size of enclosure is a constraint for me - smaller is easier to get decorator police on board (eg SVS SB12-NSD). Placement location also a constraint - must be along back wall with the Boxer monitors. But starting with a single is reasonable advice. If I do start with one SB12 and given my constraints, is centered between monitors and within 6" of back wall decent placement?

I have a single sub but it is dual 15" drivers. It is also more than enough for my rather large room (~25x30 high vaulted ceiling) and easily handles any type of music. Again, not saying duals are not a good choice, but if the OP hasn't heard any of the subs mentioned, you might want to start with one and see how it goes first. Many of the subs mentioned have pretty significant output. A single LFM-1EX (HSU VTF-3 older variant) is rated large room by Audioholics, so one will already be likely to fill that room easily.

 

[ImcLoud]

dual subs cost less per, but svs will upgrade you to a second sub for the same cost... I personally would start with 2 and if you a b compare dual vs single and like how it sounds single return the second one..

 

[usery]

Thanks, that helps a lot - now including the PSA XS15 in the hunt. Where did you end up placing your single?

I had my heart set on a dual sub setup for music...Because of money constraints I bought one with the intent of buying the other in a few weeks. I was under the impression that two well placed subs would give me some sort of balanced sound. Well something really cool happened. I read as many articles I could on sub placement and found a good location for my sub. WOW! I don't think I need a second sub now....I looked at the SVS, HSU and PSA subs and finally chose the PSA XS-15 Sealed Sub ($750)...Hope this helps!

 

[usery]

First, thanks to all who read all the blah blah and pitched in helpful feedback esp. ImcLoud, j_garcia, agarwalro, shadyJ, ousooner, DannyA.

Have decided to go with two subs but my rationale has evolved thanks to you all:

1. a/b test 2ch hi-fi rig with both single and duals
2. if no significant difference go with single in music rig and kick 2nd sub into evolving HT area (1320 cu. ft, old Boston Acoustics 5.1 set being replaced)

win/win as I see it - as long as I get two subs that as singles will adequately drive the respective listening areas. Which brings me to these:

Sub	Spec	$$$
SVS SB-12 NSD	14.7"h x 14.2"w x 17.3"d, 35lbs, front-firing 12" driver, 400w RMS	$1200 shipped, dual
PSA XS15	18” x 17” x 19.5”, 59lbs, down-firing 15" driver, 500w RMS	$1423 shipped, dual

Clearly XS15 in single config will outperform the SB-12 spec vs spec. Will down-firing vs front-firing compromise anything in the 2ch hi-fi setup?

 

[shadyJ]

According to PSA, the XS15 is 2.6 times the sub that the SB12 is, so why would you go with an SB12? PSA wouldn't lie about a thing like that!

 

[agarwalro]

Sub	Spec	$$$
SVS SB-12 NSD	14.7"h x 14.2"w x 17.3"d, 35lbs, front-firing 12" driver, 400w RMS	$1200 shipped, dual
PSA XS15	18” x 17” x 19.5”, 59lbs, down-firing 15" driver, 500w RMS	$1423 shipped, dual

PSA will outperform the SVS no doubt. But, it is bigger and IMO the finish has less WAF.

Will down-firing vs front-firing compromise anything in the 2ch hi-fi setup?

Since bass is omnidirectional, front firing vs down firing is a non issue. The receiver will provide the bass management and time align the sound from sub and main speaker.

 

[DannyA]

Thanks, that helps a lot - now including the PSA XS15 in the hunt. Where did you end up placing your single?

I have it placed in the corner behind my TV about 2 ft from one wall and maybe 8" - 10" from the other. I would like to get set up with a meter and learn how to take some actual measurements. That would be cool.

 

[DannyA]

PSA will outperform the SVS no doubt. But, it is bigger and IMO the finish has less WAF.

I will say the SVS and HSU subs are nicer looking than the PSA sub. The XS-15 is a big square box with a black matted finish and heavy duty rubber feet. With that said, it represents it's self as a well constructed unit. It's by no means an eyesore or frankenbox. It simply not as nice looking.

 

[TLS Guy]

Decorator police shut me down on any cylinderical sub (SVS PC-12 Plus etc) - must be cube/s and <= 20" enclosure in any dimension. May parlay for budget increase [ ! ].

Now leaning towards properly-placed single sub instead of duals. Main LR listening area = 2808 cu. ft, adjoining DR = 1430 cu. ft, total = 3238 cu. ft.

Would a single HSU ULS-15 handle all that?

How will you engineer a single sub? You have a small British integrated amp. It has premp/amp loops. So it will be easiest to use two subs. You will need a sub with right and left line inputs otherwise your whole system will be mono if you use one sub. So you must be able to use two Y connectors from the preout out and one side of the Ys going back to your amp ins, and the others going to a right and left amp ins an the other to the right and left of one sub or two individual subs.

Since you like classical music and opera your project is not so simple.

With the above set up your Nola Boxers will still be full range. This can be a good option, however those are small speakers and I bet they are stressed with the big operatic moments. There are no accurate specs for those speakers, the manufacturer optimistically quotes 44 kHz to 28Hz. That came out of the back of the designers neck! From the size and design, I would say its useful bass extension will be around 60 Hz and almost certainly no lower than 55 Hz. So ideally those speakers need crossing over at 80 Hz or may be even 100 Hz. In that case you will need a subs that have high pass outs. They are not typical.

Your other option is is use an electronic crossover in the preamp/amp loop that has high and low pass filters for two channels.

For your musical tastes I would definitely use two low Qts subs under each speaker and replace the the speaker stands with the subs. I think with those small speakers, you will find you have to drive the subs high enough there will be localization issues and poor integration.

This whole issue of not localizing subs is a myth, I can generally localize them easily. Pop music engineering is very different to engineering for classical music. Classical music engineering requires a much more subtle and obsessional approach. This recent pop geared engineering from studio to the loudspeakers, is having a very negative impact on the survival of classical music.

Classical music needs if not a separate universe, at least a parallel one. I never play pop music and never engineer specifically for it.

 

[usery]

How will you engineer a single sub? You have a small British integrated amp. It has premp/amp loops. So it will be easiest to use two subs. You will need a sub with right and left line inputs otherwise your whole system will be mono if you use one sub. So you must be able to use two Y connectors from the preout out and one side of the Ys going back to your amp ins, and the others going to a right and left amp ins an the other to the right and left of one sub or two individual subs.

Done - it will be 2 subs.

With the above set up your Nola Boxers will still be full range. This can be a good option, however those are small speakers and I bet they are stressed with the big operatic moments. There are no accurate specs for those speakers, the manufacturer optimistically quotes 44 kHz to 28Hz. That came out of the back of the designers neck! From the size and design, I would say its useful bass extension will be around 60 Hz and almost certainly no lower than 55 Hz. So ideally those speakers need crossing over at 80 Hz or may be even 100 Hz. In that case you will need a subs that have high pass outs. They are not typical.
Your other option is is use an electronic crossover in the preamp/amp loop that has high and low pass filters for two channels.

Thanks, clearly these are all elements I haven't thought through or know much about. Appreciate you going after the engineering first - will result in a better design in the end. A side challenge in all of this is distance from Creek to subs and speakers, which at the moment is non-negotiable: nearly 30' run to L/R ins.

Any suggestions for the electronic crossover component?

For your musical tastes I would definitely use two low Qts subs under each speaker and replace the the speaker stands with the subs. I think with those small speakers, you will find you have to drive the subs high enough there will be localization issues and poor integration.

The Boxer designer recommended getting tweeters to ear height of my listening positions, hence the stands (26" base plate height). I'm open to optimizing integration with the subs, just not clear how to pull it all off.

 

[shadyJ]

Done - it will be 2 subs.
Thanks, clearly these are all elements I haven't thought through or know much about. Appreciate you going after the engineering first - will result in a better design in the end. A side challenge in all of this is distance from Creek to subs and speakers, which at the moment is non-negotiable: nearly 30' run to L/R ins.

Any suggestions for the electronic crossover component?

Here is a simple but solid crossover: Hsu High Pass Filter

With the type of setup TLS is suggesting, you can high pass your speakers above 80 Hz without a problem, since subwoofer localization wouldn't be an issue- if you do use the subs as speaker stands. The higher you crossover your subs, the more dynamic range you will get from your system overall. The type of subs TLS is advocating are high output, high dynamic range subs, but they don't tend to dig very deep. This would be a relatively high Qts sub and affordable too. It doesn't dig very deep but it won't compress the peaks as much as other similarly priced subs.

 

[TLS Guy]

Done - it will be 2 subs.



Thanks, clearly these are all elements I haven't thought through or know much about. Appreciate you going after the engineering first - will result in a better design in the end. A side challenge in all of this is distance from Creek to subs and speakers, which at the moment is non-negotiable: nearly 30' run to L/R ins.

Any suggestions for the electronic crossover component?



The Boxer designer recommended getting tweeters to ear height of my listening positions, hence the stands (26" base plate height). I'm open to optimizing integration with the subs, just not clear how to pull it all off.

You have a number of options.

I would recommend one or two of these subs. Since you have such long runs, this complicates issues, as that is 60 ft of cable there and back. You have four options, and in your case I recommend the third or fourth options as technically the best engineering solution for your circumstances.

Option 1: -
Use one sub between your speakers. Connect your pre-outs to the left and right ins of the sub. Connect the right and left outputs to your amp ins. This sub has a high pass output, so you will be able to limit the bass to your speakers.

Option 2 is to use two subs, but connect left out to the left sub and the right out to the right. Connect the respective sub outputs to the amp ins.

The problem with these two options is that there will be 60 ft of unbalanced screened cable to and from you amp. This will cause loss and I fear enough capacitance to affect high frequency performance.

Option 3 and 4 require the purchase of an electronic crossover and this should do the trick.

So this will allow you to purchase one sub. This crossover has a summed sub out, which will allow you to use one crossover. It also has balanced outs, and these subs have a balanced in. This will allow you to have long runs with no issues.

Option 4 is to use two subs. You would then need a 30 ft. balanced cable for each sub.

If you place the speakers on the subs, you will need to find an elegant way to elevate each sub. The alternative is to place the subs along side each speaker.

 

[afterlife2]

TLSguy should be listened to. He helped me with my sub configuration for my 2.1 and it sounds outstanding. Now I'm looking for a musical sub for my PC setup...it truly never ends. That behringer crossover works great on my setup.

 

[shadyJ]

To avoid the spaghetti of long runs, there is always something like this.

 

[TLS Guy]

To avoid the spaghetti of long runs, there is always something like this.

You don't take a high end system like that and drive it through a wireless connection, unless you listen to pop music which is already terminally degraded at birth.

 

[shadyJ]

With a 10 ms max delay, I don't think that wireless connection will hurt the sound quality in the subwoofer's range at all.

 

[Nestor]

You don't take a high end system like that and drive it through a wireless connection, unless you listen to pop music which is already terminally degraded at birth.

What makes you think it will degrade the signal?


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